- 32,359
- 20,298
My opinion.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Aizen regen downgrade
- Thread starter Theglassman12
- Start date
-
- Tags
- bleach sosuke aizen
- Status
- 6
- 0
i disagree with the downgrade
- 32,359
- 20,298
In regards to all the people not at all involved with the discussion spamming "I disagree"
I'm not stupid. I'm not going to be fooled by something on my wall if I can just check the thread. Looking here I see that there's still very little consensus on either side of the argument.
I'm not stupid. I'm not going to be fooled by something on my wall if I can just check the thread. Looking here I see that there's still very little consensus on either side of the argument.
- 8,180
- 2,214
There is indeed a consensus,even several staff agree and have switched over including others.
Just becuase 2-3 people won't concede doesn't mean there isn't a consensus,there is also the fact their isn't even anything new being posted must I remind you.
Just becuase 2-3 people won't concede doesn't mean there isn't a consensus,there is also the fact their isn't even anything new being posted must I remind you.
- 32,359
- 20,298
I don't think Aizen's regen is Low-Godly because I don't think there's enough evidence to conclusively say his body was completely destroyed. However he does regenerate from Gin's bankai which destroys the target on a cellular level, and was desintegrated in the showing above.
So I say that At least Mid-High (Or High), possibly Low-Godly would be enough and would solve all the arguing.
That way everyone can be happy. If you make a thread for Aizen you can specify his regen I suppose.
So I say that At least Mid-High (Or High), possibly Low-Godly would be enough and would solve all the arguing.
That way everyone can be happy. If you make a thread for Aizen you can specify his regen I suppose.
- 4,327
- 2,979
There is never enough evidence for Low-Godly since you need a statement that reinforces the notion of complete destruction.
For Aizen we have the fact that Mugetsu is Quincy based which do have complete destruction and the quote that Mugetsu turns everything to nothing.
However, what I've been trying to push for the longest in this thread was Mayuri's explanation of Aizen's Regenerationn and the fact that Aizen regenerates from his soul.
We are at least reaching a large majority consensus and the thread is over 350, so hopefully this ends soon. We have been repeating points and many people are derailing by bringing up incorrect points or previously countered points (Mid-Godly, Existence Erasure and such).
For Aizen we have the fact that Mugetsu is Quincy based which do have complete destruction and the quote that Mugetsu turns everything to nothing.
However, what I've been trying to push for the longest in this thread was Mayuri's explanation of Aizen's Regenerationn and the fact that Aizen regenerates from his soul.
We are at least reaching a large majority consensus and the thread is over 350, so hopefully this ends soon. We have been repeating points and many people are derailing by bringing up incorrect points or previously countered points (Mid-Godly, Existence Erasure and such).
- 32,359
- 20,298
@Imade
What do you think of my suggestion. I feel that way the thread could end.
What do you think of my suggestion. I feel that way the thread could end.
- 8,180
- 2,214
CRT's aren't for satisying both parties.
IMade and others including myself have provided evidence as to why it should stay,the other side to be blunt has simply been recycling the same argument with some not even understanding the difference between EE and Soul Destruction, or bringing up completely irrelevant points.
Scans,context,and the explaination of Aizens Regenerationn by one of the most reknown scientist in the Bleach verse which is based off his soul is blatant Low-Godly.
IMade and others including myself have provided evidence as to why it should stay,the other side to be blunt has simply been recycling the same argument with some not even understanding the difference between EE and Soul Destruction, or bringing up completely irrelevant points.
Scans,context,and the explaination of Aizens Regenerationn by one of the most reknown scientist in the Bleach verse which is based off his soul is blatant Low-Godly.
- 2,426
- 476
I've said all I can on the matter. We know Aizen was not completely erased on the physical level. Even Imade has admitted as such even if he won't admit it means it should be downgraded. If a compromise is Matt's final call then so be it. Hopefully we can put all of this behind us when its over.
- 20,135
- 10,967
- Thread starter
- #372
@Matt Wasn't Gin's Bankai stated to have a deadly poison? I don't recall him saying it can destroy on a cellular level.
- 31,695
- 28,284
I still haven't seen the scans I asked for here. I'd like to see them if anyone has them available.Damage3245 said:
- 20,135
- 10,967
- Thread starter
- #375
Hmm, I see. Well I guess Matt's proposition makes sense.
- 10,098
- 9,406
http://www.***********.info/*********/bleach/chapter-414?full_screen=1 (Click the left arrow).Theglassman12 said:
- 626
- 90
I being following the thread through its 350+ comments and honestly it's a tough cookie, am neutral on this by the way, both side makes sense but either way low Godly doesn't seem to fit anyehere..
Aize's Regenerationn is either
Aize's Regenerationn is either
- MID :If going with the argument that his body was not destroyed and Mugetsu was just a regular physical bisection,which isn't far fetched considering the visuals of the attack and the Regenerationn.
- MID GODLY :If going with the quincy destroying souls argument,Quincy destroys soul,mind and body,soul and body not being mutually exclusive in this situation.so basically they are removed from the reincarnation cycle ergo existence erasure(at least by bleach standards).This notion is supported by Mayuri and several others statement of nothing in SS being able to kill Aizen,sane SS who has EE in its pocket.
- 63,529
- 8,506
Theglassman12 said:
- 20,135
- 10,967
- Thread starter
- #379
@Zzsax Imade already addressed Mid godly
- 20,135
- 10,967
- Thread starter
- #380
@Gargoyle there were too many comments for me to notice everything. Cut me some slack
- 8,438
- 3,294
@Glass
I get Matt's argument and have discussed it in private with him but I respectfully disagree. If there is no metaphysical existence and the "spiritual body" is all the conventional existence Aizen has then Low-Godly just isn't an option.
I get Matt's argument and have discussed it in private with him but I respectfully disagree. If there is no metaphysical existence and the "spiritual body" is all the conventional existence Aizen has then Low-Godly just isn't an option.
- 20,135
- 10,967
- Thread starter
- #382
@Assalt it's pretty much the only form of existence he has aside from his zanpakuto. And even that's on him intact all the time
- 626
- 90
Yeah he did, and as always he "made"(pun intended) a lot of sense, but if he is arguing for the crumbling effect caused by the quincies destruction of souls,this is by all standard EE,(and I stand to be corrected,if it isn't)Theglassman12 said:
But if Aizen was indeed removed from the cycle of reincarnation and came back from that,then low godly isn't accurate and it's most likely causing the commotion
- 32,359
- 20,298
Seems people agree with my suggestion
- 16,965
- 4,865
Actually theres something I want to say about one of Damages points that I just realized. Hold that thought for a second. Idk if it'll mean anything but I want it known.
Brb.
Brb.
- 8,180
- 2,214
Lol
- 63,529
- 8,506
<Breathes inMatthew Schroeder said:
- 16,965
- 4,865
Sorry about that. Was cooking and I needed food. Anyway, I was thinking for a little bit about one of Damage3245's points. To clarify what point im talking about, its what he says here from his earlier replies:
In this fight with Jirobo, Uryu strikes Jirobo not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 times with his Quincy arrows, yet Jirobo's Konpaku (body of the soul) wasn't completely destroyed by Quincy Soul Destruction in the slightest. He only lost his Soul Reaper powers because of something else happening to him. And the important factor here was that Uryu's mindset was completely focused on killing Jirobo. As shown:
Scan 1
Scans 1-3
When Jirobo faces Orihime, the latter failing to damage him with her Koten-Zanshun attack, he attacks her saying she can't do anything with an attack that lacks murderous intent.
But before she can be hit, Uryu quickly launches a Quincy arrow at him that slices his hand, making him bleed, saying if Jirobo wants to face murderous-intentful attacks, he should go up against his bow.
This is the 1st time Jirobo gets damaged and already we're shown Uryu is intent (or very willing) to kill him. Moving on...
Scan 2
Scan 3
Scans 4-5
Scan 4
Uryu again launches and damages Jirobo with a Quincy Arrow before the latter can pull out his Zanpakuto Tsunzaki-Garasu, and Jirobo is still in the game.
Second time he is hit by an arrow.
Scan 5
Scan 6
When
Scan 6
Jirobo tries attacking Orihime, due to failing to beat Uryu, Uryu jumps in to protect her and launches 2 more Quincy arrows at him. This time through him, causing more damage than earlier. Yet, his Konpaku isn't destroyed like Quincies would normally do to hollows. What happens instead?
Last sca
Even after all of that damage from Uryu's quincy arrows, Jirobo isn't killed. And his Konpaku is still very intact, just damaged. What happens is instead of the Konpaku being destroyed, Uryu's arrows only destroyed Jirobo's Saketsu chain and his Hakuisui soul sleep, the spot where his spiritual power is kept. With it gone, he only loses his soul reaper powers, but his Konpaku/spiritual body remains.
And why is Jirobo an important part of my reply? Well here are multiple things we know he was to Uryu when battling each other:
-An obstacle. Jirobo, like everyone else in the Seireitei, knew Ichigo's gang called Ryoka (rebel spirits) at the time infiltrated the Seireitei since they're objective was to find and rescue Rukia. So Uryu knew any Soul Reaper (besides Ichigo) would be getting in his way.
-A threat. Jirobo, like everyone else in the Seireitei, was specifically ordered to come kill Ichigo's squad. At the time, these guys were seen as just Ryoka, aka rebel spirits that inflitrate the Soul Society. So Uryu obviously knew Jirobo wasnt going to show mercy to either him or Orihime when in battle (and Orihime was actually Jirobo's main target the entire time.)
-Most importantly, an enemy. Other than being an obstacle and threat, Uryu at this time still strongly despised Soul Reapers. Other than Ichigo, all Shinigami were still his mortal enemies (Orihime points this out during the fight as well.). So its obvious on why Uryu would have the intent to kill behind his attacks.
Uryu overall has extreme reason to not hold anything back against Jirobo with his Quincy Arrows, yet unlike how Quincy destroy souls in the human world, Jirobo's Konpaku was very much left it tact. At best, he was only hurt by the arrows and in the end, instead of his Konpaku being destroyed, his spirtual powers were.
And there are other moments too. I won't provide scans, but i'll make honorable mentions:
-Uryu not instantly destroying Mayuri's Konpaku in their fight, even with his gloves removal to activate Letzt Stil and greatly increase his Quincy powers. Mayuri in the end even gets hit in the chest with Uryu's Arrows after he poisons him with his Bankai and escapes, clearly not getting his Konpaku destroyed.
-Uryu not instantly destroying every Arrancar he faces when infiltrating Las Noches and IIRC Las Noches is exactly the same as the Soul Society, being Reishi based, only for Hollows.
-No Quincy having a massively bigger advantage over Shinigami, especially in the war arc. If their soul destroying powers like they use against hollows worked in the SS, they'd have won against the Shinigami long before the war gets underway.
So with all the stuff ive provided/mentioned, it would seem Damages point about the Quincy's soul-destroying power not being the same in the SS, is very plausible. I'd like to see what others think of this first though.
Thinking on this point, the point he brought up on "body destruction", or even that a Quincy's spirit bows only cause conventional normal damage to a Konpaku instead of soul destruction, seems to be the more likely result. At least when inside the Soul Society anyway. And there's multiple points I have that reinforces his. For my explanation, i'll use an example that happens quite early in the Soul Society arc of a Konpaku not being completely destroyed by Quincy powers: Uryu vs Jirobo.Damage3245 said:
In this fight with Jirobo, Uryu strikes Jirobo not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 times with his Quincy arrows, yet Jirobo's Konpaku (body of the soul) wasn't completely destroyed by Quincy Soul Destruction in the slightest. He only lost his Soul Reaper powers because of something else happening to him. And the important factor here was that Uryu's mindset was completely focused on killing Jirobo. As shown:
Scan 1
Scans 1-3
When Jirobo faces Orihime, the latter failing to damage him with her Koten-Zanshun attack, he attacks her saying she can't do anything with an attack that lacks murderous intent.
But before she can be hit, Uryu quickly launches a Quincy arrow at him that slices his hand, making him bleed, saying if Jirobo wants to face murderous-intentful attacks, he should go up against his bow.
This is the 1st time Jirobo gets damaged and already we're shown Uryu is intent (or very willing) to kill him. Moving on...
Scan 2
Scan 3
Scans 4-5
Scan 4
Uryu again launches and damages Jirobo with a Quincy Arrow before the latter can pull out his Zanpakuto Tsunzaki-Garasu, and Jirobo is still in the game.
Second time he is hit by an arrow.
Scan 5
Scan 6
When
Scan 6
Jirobo tries attacking Orihime, due to failing to beat Uryu, Uryu jumps in to protect her and launches 2 more Quincy arrows at him. This time through him, causing more damage than earlier. Yet, his Konpaku isn't destroyed like Quincies would normally do to hollows. What happens instead?
Last sca
Even after all of that damage from Uryu's quincy arrows, Jirobo isn't killed. And his Konpaku is still very intact, just damaged. What happens is instead of the Konpaku being destroyed, Uryu's arrows only destroyed Jirobo's Saketsu chain and his Hakuisui soul sleep, the spot where his spiritual power is kept. With it gone, he only loses his soul reaper powers, but his Konpaku/spiritual body remains.
And why is Jirobo an important part of my reply? Well here are multiple things we know he was to Uryu when battling each other:
-An obstacle. Jirobo, like everyone else in the Seireitei, knew Ichigo's gang called Ryoka (rebel spirits) at the time infiltrated the Seireitei since they're objective was to find and rescue Rukia. So Uryu knew any Soul Reaper (besides Ichigo) would be getting in his way.
-A threat. Jirobo, like everyone else in the Seireitei, was specifically ordered to come kill Ichigo's squad. At the time, these guys were seen as just Ryoka, aka rebel spirits that inflitrate the Soul Society. So Uryu obviously knew Jirobo wasnt going to show mercy to either him or Orihime when in battle (and Orihime was actually Jirobo's main target the entire time.)
-Most importantly, an enemy. Other than being an obstacle and threat, Uryu at this time still strongly despised Soul Reapers. Other than Ichigo, all Shinigami were still his mortal enemies (Orihime points this out during the fight as well.). So its obvious on why Uryu would have the intent to kill behind his attacks.
Uryu overall has extreme reason to not hold anything back against Jirobo with his Quincy Arrows, yet unlike how Quincy destroy souls in the human world, Jirobo's Konpaku was very much left it tact. At best, he was only hurt by the arrows and in the end, instead of his Konpaku being destroyed, his spirtual powers were.
And there are other moments too. I won't provide scans, but i'll make honorable mentions:
-Uryu not instantly destroying Mayuri's Konpaku in their fight, even with his gloves removal to activate Letzt Stil and greatly increase his Quincy powers. Mayuri in the end even gets hit in the chest with Uryu's Arrows after he poisons him with his Bankai and escapes, clearly not getting his Konpaku destroyed.
-Uryu not instantly destroying every Arrancar he faces when infiltrating Las Noches and IIRC Las Noches is exactly the same as the Soul Society, being Reishi based, only for Hollows.
-No Quincy having a massively bigger advantage over Shinigami, especially in the war arc. If their soul destroying powers like they use against hollows worked in the SS, they'd have won against the Shinigami long before the war gets underway.
So with all the stuff ive provided/mentioned, it would seem Damages point about the Quincy's soul-destroying power not being the same in the SS, is very plausible. I'd like to see what others think of this first though.
- 16,965
- 4,865
It was? I don't recall that, but if the novel actually proves it, then i'll probably take back my point on Mayuri.AppleLord said:
Though, wouldnt a cloned body still be a Konpaku in the SS?
- 8,753
- 1,617
Or, Kukui, Quincy could also just be capable of deciding if their attacks do such a thing or not. Arrancar are pretty much hollow but undergoing a metapmorphosis to become more powerful, yet you don't see them getting undone like all the hollows Ishida killed before.
The quick and easy about why can just be chalked up to the fact that Ishida isn't an asshole anymore. He was the same dude that decided to pull a bunch of Hollows into Karakura for a match against Ichigo, confident that he could kill them all to make sure no one died but still needlessly bringing about that danger. Why would he care about what happens to the soul when he kills Hollows? They are hollows. On the other hand he's different later on. Even in your example, Ishida hits Jirobo on his Saketsu and Hakusui - sealing his Shinigami powers forever. He never intended to kill him seeing how he did this, and even for the arrancar, he can kill them normally - so what's actually the point of destroying a bunch of souls? He's not the arrogant little shit as before.
Mayuri, on the other hand, is a better example that I can't explain away. Then again, perhaps IMade can make an argument as he's better rounded about the show.
The quick and easy about why can just be chalked up to the fact that Ishida isn't an asshole anymore. He was the same dude that decided to pull a bunch of Hollows into Karakura for a match against Ichigo, confident that he could kill them all to make sure no one died but still needlessly bringing about that danger. Why would he care about what happens to the soul when he kills Hollows? They are hollows. On the other hand he's different later on. Even in your example, Ishida hits Jirobo on his Saketsu and Hakusui - sealing his Shinigami powers forever. He never intended to kill him seeing how he did this, and even for the arrancar, he can kill them normally - so what's actually the point of destroying a bunch of souls? He's not the arrogant little shit as before.
Mayuri, on the other hand, is a better example that I can't explain away. Then again, perhaps IMade can make an argument as he's better rounded about the show.
- 16,965
- 4,865
Uryu not even being willing to kill Jirobo via Konpaku Destruction wouldnt make much sense given Uryu still saw him as a mortal enemy, for multiple reasons, and right from the start he claimed to have murderous intent.
However, i'll induldde you for the sake of argument. So for your reply's basis, your saying Quincy can decidingly choose not to apply their soul-destroying capabilities to their arrows when facing opponents yes? Did I get this part right?
However, i'll induldde you for the sake of argument. So for your reply's basis, your saying Quincy can decidingly choose not to apply their soul-destroying capabilities to their arrows when facing opponents yes? Did I get this part right?
- 4,327
- 2,979
I feel insulted you would ask me since it heavily implies you never once read the previous discussion. I've been vocally against Possibly Low-Godly and arguing for keeping the flat Low-Godly.Matthew Schroeder said:
The arguments are repeating so I thought I'd tally up the votes of all users that have commented.
For Low-Godly
- IMadeThisOn8-1-2017
- Sigurd Snake in The Eye
- KuuIchigo
- Gargoyle One
- Kepekley23
- Dark649
- Zensum
- PaChi2
- The Causality
- EmperorRorepme
- W0NDER3X
- Sera EX
- Jinx666
- Heavens Feel
- The Tetromino King
- Rangetrout
- LSirLancelotDuLacl
- MachTwo
- Danny1112
- The mysterious ma
- JaBitte
- Burning Full Fingers
For Possibly Low-Godly
Unknow
- Rin The Dragon Empress
- SilentBob34
- Wrath Of Itachi
- LordGriffin1000
- UserUnknown666
- Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff
- YungManzi
- Homu Sweet Homu
- Konaguna
- Shadowbokunohero
- AnonymousBlank
- TheC2
- Bobybobster
- Zzsax (You seem confused on Quincy properties since you think they have EE)
- AppleLord
- 2,047
- 778
After reading this thread through I think that Imade makes the most sense.
- 16,232
- 11,685
As pointed out many times Souls in Bleach dont work the same as many other verses, they eat, sleep,age,have Cells, a Death or destruction of their souls could very well mean their spoopy bodies not necessarily literally every part of their being.Shadowbokunohero said:
- 8,438
- 3,294
@IMade
While I do oppose Low-Godly, I don't think I oppose it for the reasons of the others. I have no idea if he was fully destroyed. I don't know enough about the verse. I'm just saying that without a metaphysical existence, which I don't believe Aizen has, it's either a non-godly regen or Mid-Godly. Low-Godly doesn't really make sense.
While I do oppose Low-Godly, I don't think I oppose it for the reasons of the others. I have no idea if he was fully destroyed. I don't know enough about the verse. I'm just saying that without a metaphysical existence, which I don't believe Aizen has, it's either a non-godly regen or Mid-Godly. Low-Godly doesn't really make sense.
- 16,965
- 4,865
Well my last giant reply kinda deals with this topic.Shadowbokunohero said:
Because unless someone else has a very good explanation, my reply reinforces Damage3245's point further above.
- 31,740
- 34,852
He does still have a subconsciousness/mind, which there was no proof of the mind being destroyed; just the body. Regardless of whether or not they have a metaphysical soul, having the body destroyed is only Low-Godly if they still have a mind. So regardless of the downgrade being accepted, it's definitely not Mid-Godly.
- 8,438
- 3,294
@DDM
Did they have showings of a mind being capable of existing without a soul or body? In general the mind is considered a facet of the soul/body and without them it cannot exist unless stated/shown to be otherwise.
Honestly feats like that need a thread in and of themselves.
Did they have showings of a mind being capable of existing without a soul or body? In general the mind is considered a facet of the soul/body and without them it cannot exist unless stated/shown to be otherwise.
Honestly feats like that need a thread in and of themselves.
- Status
