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Aizen regen downgrade

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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Damage3245 said:
I find the supposed true nature of Aizen's Regenerationn to be a bit contradictory; he regenerates the spiritual energy produced by his soul, but the Mugetsu destroyed his soul via Quincy-destroying powers... so how did he have a soul to regenerate a body from?
I know IMade made an answer in his long explanation post, but from the looks of it all it is saying is that it doesn't count as soul-destruction when in Soul Society, just body destruction...

Also, I think the assumption that because Zangetsu fused with fake-Zangetsu that the Mugetsu must have Quincy properties to it is just an assumption without it actually being stated anywhere in the manga. At no point does any chapter or databook clarify that that Ichigo's Mugetsu has soul-destroying properties.

I also have still not seen any proof that Mugetsu completely destroy Aizens' body as opposed to just mostly destroying it.

Just because Aizen's body is no longer visible after he Mugetsu cuts him in half, doesn't mean he was completely destroyed down to the last spiritual particle.
Damage does make good points here i'll say.
My opinion.
 
There is indeed a consensus,even several staff agree and have switched over including others.

Just becuase 2-3 people won't concede doesn't mean there isn't a consensus,there is also the fact their isn't even anything new being posted must I remind you.
 
I don't think Aizen's regen is Low-Godly because I don't think there's enough evidence to conclusively say his body was completely destroyed. However he does regenerate from Gin's bankai which destroys the target on a cellular level, and was desintegrated in the showing above.

So I say that At least Mid-High (Or High), possibly Low-Godly would be enough and would solve all the arguing.

That way everyone can be happy. If you make a thread for Aizen you can specify his regen I suppose.
 
There is never enough evidence for Low-Godly since you need a statement that reinforces the notion of complete destruction.

For Aizen we have the fact that Mugetsu is Quincy based which do have complete destruction and the quote that Mugetsu turns everything to nothing.

However, what I've been trying to push for the longest in this thread was Mayuri's explanation of Aizen's Regenerationn and the fact that Aizen regenerates from his soul.

We are at least reaching a large majority consensus and the thread is over 350, so hopefully this ends soon. We have been repeating points and many people are derailing by bringing up incorrect points or previously countered points (Mid-Godly, Existence Erasure and such).
 
CRT's aren't for satisying both parties.

IMade and others including myself have provided evidence as to why it should stay,the other side to be blunt has simply been recycling the same argument with some not even understanding the difference between EE and Soul Destruction, or bringing up completely irrelevant points.

Scans,context,and the explaination of Aizens Regenerationn by one of the most reknown scientist in the Bleach verse which is based off his soul is blatant Low-Godly.
 
As I told Glassman in chat, Im going with the Bleach side here.

But Im not going to enter the arguement. Just want this thread to end.
 
Matt's suggestion seems to make sense.
 
I've said all I can on the matter. We know Aizen was not completely erased on the physical level. Even Imade has admitted as such even if he won't admit it means it should be downgraded. If a compromise is Matt's final call then so be it. Hopefully we can put all of this behind us when its over.
 
@Matt Wasn't Gin's Bankai stated to have a deadly poison? I don't recall him saying it can destroy on a cellular level.
 
Damage3245 said:
Damage3245 said:
So there are never any corpses left behind of people that are killed by Quincy? Somehow that doesn't seem right.
And can I have a couple scans of Konpaku crumbling from Quincy attacks to compare to Aizen's crumbling?
I don't think this bit has been answered yet ^
I still haven't seen the scans I asked for here. I'd like to see them if anyone has them available.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Matt Wasn't Gin's Bankai stated to have a deadly poison? I don't recall him saying it can destroy on a cellular level.
Poisons destroy cells.

Its not like it was.a neurotoxin or something similar. The bankai literally opened a hole in his chest and rip him in half.
 
I being following the thread through its 350+ comments and honestly it's a tough cookie, am neutral on this by the way, both side makes sense but either way low Godly doesn't seem to fit anyehere..

Aize's Regenerationn is either

  • MID :If going with the argument that his body was not destroyed and Mugetsu was just a regular physical bisection,which isn't far fetched considering the visuals of the attack and the Regenerationn.
OR

  • MID GODLY :If going with the quincy destroying souls argument,Quincy destroys soul,mind and body,soul and body not being mutually exclusive in this situation.so basically they are removed from the reincarnation cycle ergo existence erasure(at least by bleach standards).This notion is supported by Mayuri and several others statement of nothing in SS being able to kill Aizen,sane SS who has EE in its pocket.
Which is why I think Dr fix's argument makes sense, if Quincy destruction isn't EE then Aizen is simply a MID type Regenerationn.however if it is indeed EE then Aizen is at least MID -GODLY either way there is no logical place for LOW-GODLY.
 
@Gargoyle there were too many comments for me to notice everything. Cut me some slack
 
@Glass

I get Matt's argument and have discussed it in private with him but I respectfully disagree. If there is no metaphysical existence and the "spiritual body" is all the conventional existence Aizen has then Low-Godly just isn't an option.
 
@Assalt it's pretty much the only form of existence he has aside from his zanpakuto. And even that's on him intact all the time
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Zzsax Imade already addressed Mid godly
Yeah he did, and as always he "made"(pun intended) a lot of sense, but if he is arguing for the crumbling effect caused by the quincies destruction of souls,this is by all standard EE,(and I stand to be corrected,if it isn't)

But if Aizen was indeed removed from the cycle of reincarnation and came back from that,then low godly isn't accurate and it's most likely causing the commotion
 
Actually theres something I want to say about one of Damages points that I just realized. Hold that thought for a second. Idk if it'll mean anything but I want it known.

Brb.
 
Sorry about that. Was cooking and I needed food. Anyway, I was thinking for a little bit about one of Damage3245's points. To clarify what point im talking about, its what he says here from his earlier replies:

Damage3245 said:
I know IMade made an answer in his long explanation post, but from the looks of it all it is saying is that it doesn't count as soul-destruction when in Soul Society, just body destruction...
Thinking on this point, the point he brought up on "body destruction", or even that a Quincy's spirit bows only cause conventional normal damage to a Konpaku instead of soul destruction, seems to be the more likely result. At least when inside the Soul Society anyway. And there's multiple points I have that reinforces his. For my explanation, i'll use an example that happens quite early in the Soul Society arc of a Konpaku not being completely destroyed by Quincy powers: Uryu vs Jirobo.

In this fight with Jirobo, Uryu strikes Jirobo not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 times with his Quincy arrows, yet Jirobo's Konpaku (body of the soul) wasn't completely destroyed by Quincy Soul Destruction in the slightest. He only lost his Soul Reaper powers because of something else happening to him. And the important factor here was that Uryu's mindset was completely focused on killing Jirobo. As shown:

Uryu feat
Scan 1

Scans 1-3
When Jirobo faces Orihime, the latter failing to damage him with her Koten-Zanshun attack, he attacks her saying she can't do anything with an attack that lacks murderous intent.

But before she can be hit, Uryu quickly launches a Quincy arrow at him that slices his hand, making him bleed, saying if Jirobo wants to face murderous-intentful attacks, he should go up against his bow.

This is the 1st time Jirobo gets damaged and already we're shown Uryu is intent (or very willing) to kill him. Moving on...


Uryu feat (2)
Scan 2


Uryu feat (3)
Scan 3


Scans 4-5

Uryu feat (4)
Scan 4

Uryu again launches and damages Jirobo with a Quincy Arrow before the latter can pull out his Zanpakuto Tsunzaki-Garasu, and Jirobo is still in the game.
Second time he is hit by an arrow.


Uryu feat (5)
Scan 5


Scan 6

When
Uryu feat (6)
Scan 6

Jirobo tries attacking Orihime, due to failing to beat Uryu, Uryu jumps in to protect her and launches 2 more Quincy arrows at him. This time through him, causing more damage than earlier. Yet, his Konpaku isn't destroyed like Quincies would normally do to hollows. What happens instead?


Last sca
Uryu feat (7)
Even after all of that damage from Uryu's quincy arrows, Jirobo isn't killed. And his Konpaku is still very intact, just damaged. What happens is instead of the Konpaku being destroyed, Uryu's arrows only destroyed Jirobo's Saketsu chain and his Hakuisui soul sleep, the spot where his spiritual power is kept. With it gone, he only loses his soul reaper powers, but his Konpaku/spiritual body remains.


And why is Jirobo an important part of my reply? Well here are multiple things we know he was to Uryu when battling each other:

-An obstacle. Jirobo, like everyone else in the Seireitei, knew Ichigo's gang called Ryoka (rebel spirits) at the time infiltrated the Seireitei since they're objective was to find and rescue Rukia. So Uryu knew any Soul Reaper (besides Ichigo) would be getting in his way.

-A threat. Jirobo, like everyone else in the Seireitei, was specifically ordered to come kill Ichigo's squad. At the time, these guys were seen as just Ryoka, aka rebel spirits that inflitrate the Soul Society. So Uryu obviously knew Jirobo wasnt going to show mercy to either him or Orihime when in battle (and Orihime was actually Jirobo's main target the entire time.)

-Most importantly, an enemy. Other than being an obstacle and threat, Uryu at this time still strongly despised Soul Reapers. Other than Ichigo, all Shinigami were still his mortal enemies (Orihime points this out during the fight as well.). So its obvious on why Uryu would have the intent to kill behind his attacks.

Uryu overall has extreme reason to not hold anything back against Jirobo with his Quincy Arrows, yet unlike how Quincy destroy souls in the human world, Jirobo's Konpaku was very much left it tact. At best, he was only hurt by the arrows and in the end, instead of his Konpaku being destroyed, his spirtual powers were.

And there are other moments too. I won't provide scans, but i'll make honorable mentions:

-Uryu not instantly destroying Mayuri's Konpaku in their fight, even with his gloves removal to activate Letzt Stil and greatly increase his Quincy powers. Mayuri in the end even gets hit in the chest with Uryu's Arrows after he poisons him with his Bankai and escapes, clearly not getting his Konpaku destroyed.

-Uryu not instantly destroying every Arrancar he faces when infiltrating Las Noches and IIRC Las Noches is exactly the same as the Soul Society, being Reishi based, only for Hollows.

-No Quincy having a massively bigger advantage over Shinigami, especially in the war arc. If their soul destroying powers like they use against hollows worked in the SS, they'd have won against the Shinigami long before the war gets underway.

So with all the stuff ive provided/mentioned, it would seem Damages point about the Quincy's soul-destroying power not being the same in the SS, is very plausible. I'd like to see what others think of this first though.
 
I always thought Mayuri's clown body was an avatar. That his true Shinigami body was on SS hidden somewhere, and it seems the novel is sharing some details on that regard.
 
AppleLord said:
I always thought Mayuri's clown body was an avatar. That his true Shinigami body was on SS hidden somewhere, and it seems the novel is sharing some details on that regard.
It was? I don't recall that, but if the novel actually proves it, then i'll probably take back my point on Mayuri.

Though, wouldnt a cloned body still be a Konpaku in the SS?
 
Or, Kukui, Quincy could also just be capable of deciding if their attacks do such a thing or not. Arrancar are pretty much hollow but undergoing a metapmorphosis to become more powerful, yet you don't see them getting undone like all the hollows Ishida killed before.

The quick and easy about why can just be chalked up to the fact that Ishida isn't an asshole anymore. He was the same dude that decided to pull a bunch of Hollows into Karakura for a match against Ichigo, confident that he could kill them all to make sure no one died but still needlessly bringing about that danger. Why would he care about what happens to the soul when he kills Hollows? They are hollows. On the other hand he's different later on. Even in your example, Ishida hits Jirobo on his Saketsu and Hakusui - sealing his Shinigami powers forever. He never intended to kill him seeing how he did this, and even for the arrancar, he can kill them normally - so what's actually the point of destroying a bunch of souls? He's not the arrogant little shit as before.

Mayuri, on the other hand, is a better example that I can't explain away. Then again, perhaps IMade can make an argument as he's better rounded about the show.
 
Uryu not even being willing to kill Jirobo via Konpaku Destruction wouldnt make much sense given Uryu still saw him as a mortal enemy, for multiple reasons, and right from the start he claimed to have murderous intent.

However, i'll induldde you for the sake of argument. So for your reply's basis, your saying Quincy can decidingly choose not to apply their soul-destroying capabilities to their arrows when facing opponents yes? Did I get this part right?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Imade

What do you think of my suggestion. I feel that way the thread could end.
I feel insulted you would ask me since it heavily implies you never once read the previous discussion. I've been vocally against Possibly Low-Godly and arguing for keeping the flat Low-Godly.

The arguments are repeating so I thought I'd tally up the votes of all users that have commented.

For Low-Godly

Against Low-Godly

For Possibly Low-Godly

Unknow

 
Shadowbokunohero said:
are we're assuming that the death of their souls means that the Reishi is destroyed aswell
As pointed out many times Souls in Bleach dont work the same as many other verses, they eat, sleep,age,have Cells, a Death or destruction of their souls could very well mean their spoopy bodies not necessarily literally every part of their being.
 
@IMade

While I do oppose Low-Godly, I don't think I oppose it for the reasons of the others. I have no idea if he was fully destroyed. I don't know enough about the verse. I'm just saying that without a metaphysical existence, which I don't believe Aizen has, it's either a non-godly regen or Mid-Godly. Low-Godly doesn't really make sense.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
As pointed out many times Souls in Bleach dont work the same as many other verses, they eat, sleep,age,have Cells, a Death or destruction of their souls could very well mean their spoopy bodies not necessarily literally every part of their being.
Well my last giant reply kinda deals with this topic.

Because unless someone else has a very good explanation, my reply reinforces Damage3245's point further above.
 
He does still have a subconsciousness/mind, which there was no proof of the mind being destroyed; just the body. Regardless of whether or not they have a metaphysical soul, having the body destroyed is only Low-Godly if they still have a mind. So regardless of the downgrade being accepted, it's definitely not Mid-Godly.
 
@DDM

Did they have showings of a mind being capable of existing without a soul or body? In general the mind is considered a facet of the soul/body and without them it cannot exist unless stated/shown to be otherwise.

Honestly feats like that need a thread in and of themselves.
 
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