Aizen regen downgrade

[Shadowbokunohero]

Destroy/Kill doesn't necessarily mean the absolute destruction of every aspect of that being.

For example, if I was a Super Saiyan and I blasted some random dude with an energy wave, he would be both death and his physcal body destroyed. this doesnt mean that his atoms have been destroyed at all. unless we have proof that Soul destruction in Bleach=means that even their Reishi is destroyed then the best assumtion we can make ranges anywhere from Mid-High to High

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@IMade
While I do oppose Low-Godly, I don't think I oppose it for the reasons of the others. I have no idea if he was fully destroyed. I don't know enough about the verse. I'm just saying that without a metaphysical existence, which I don't believe Aizen has, it's either a non-godly regen or Mid-Godly. Low-Godly doesn't really make sense.

Can I direct you towards DarkDragonMedeus' comment.

To extrapolate, something I've noticed being confused on this thread is the relation between a Soul in Bleach and the Konpaku in Bleach.

Konpaku literally means Soul too, and when a soul is pushed out of a body, this new spiritual body of their's is the Konpaku. It's technically the body of the Soul. So Bleach characters pretty much have an actual real soul in their soul body (the Konpaku).

A good description of this is made by Matthew in the previous thread that gave Aizen Low-Godly:

Well, the souls in Bleach aren't exactly incorporeal protoplasm or whatnot. They are molecules and cells, and they age and need to eat (The Shinigami at least), and they react to cold exactly the same as our particles do.

So it ain't exactly fair to give Mid-Godly to something that is so demonstrably physical in practically every way.

To copy paste my own comment I've reiterated in this thread:

Souls (Konpaku) and Spiritual Bodies in Bleach do function like real bodies when in the Spiritual World (Soul Society) or in Hueco Mundo or against other Souls. The difference is the interaction of a Soul (Konpaku) / Spiritual Body with non-spiritual things in the World of the Living. We are even shown and told that a spiritual being like Shinigami pull their powers from within their soul. The Konpaku body, the actual soul in them.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

. unless we have proof that Soul destruction in Bleach=means that even their Reishi is destroyed then the best assumtion can make ranges anywhere from Mid-High to High

Even if it did, from what I gathered Shadow, Soul Destruction from the Quincies isn't even soul destuction in spirit-based dimensions like the SS (and this matters because Aizen and Ichigo fought there when this happened), but more so regular conventional attack damage.

Check my reply on why I think this.

 

[PaChi2]

Can you all please end this discussion?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Konpaku isnt a seperate soul in a shinigami, Konpaku is literally the japanese translation for souls, the only reason there seems to be a disconnect between them is the inconsistency of the translation.

When shinigami harness their power they are not harnassing it from some disconnected soul inside their spiritual body but their very own being.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Destroy/Kill doesn't necessarily mean the absolute destruction of every aspect of that being. For example, if I was a Super Saiyan and I blasted some random dude with an energy wave, he would be both death and his physcal body destroyed. this doesnt mean that his atoms have been destroyed at all.

Quincies completely destroy it as it's been reiterated in the series.

Unless we have proof that Soul destruction in Bleach=means that even their Reishi is destroyed then the best assumtion we can make ranges anywhere from Mid-High to High
Konpaku are made of Reishi exactly like how Kishi (Kishi literally means matter) makes up everything in the real world. Quincy completely destroy them as shown above.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Shinigami draw their power from their Hakusui or soul sleep, however this soul sleep isnt disconnected from their Spirit bodies but simply a part of it, it's why it's considered a pressure point on a shinigami, because it can be both pierced or sealed by other shinigami. Essentially it's like the human heart for shinigami, which is what Byakuya did to Ichigo he absolutely destroyed Ichigo's Saketsu and Hakusui, and what happened? he was reverted to a Plus not killed

https://www.***********.net/bleach/59/14

so this clearly indicates that Quincies "Soul Destructionn" ins'nt affecting "the Soul sleep" which means the Destructionn of the souls means the death/Destructionn of the body of the soul and not all the aspects of the soul such as Reishi ect. if it really is destroying every aspect of the soul including Reishi it's EE not sould Destruction

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

also bear with some of my grammar mistakes as im writing Super Fast with mobile, which im not use too

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Sorry if my messages are coming in delayed, i have like three seperate messages i wrote that im still waiting to get posted.

1.At work

2. Wifi here keeps going on and off, so i will have to leave the thread for now and hope that all my messages come through

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Then there's also the assumption that because Ichigo is part Quincy that Mugetsu has to have Quincy's "Soul Destrcution" Properties, which could be true but it's definetly shown to be more Shinigami than Quincy, which is why the end result is Ichigo losing his SHINIGAMI Powers.

In conclusion I believe that this requires far more speculation and guesses to be remotely 100 percent accurate.

I personally think that Aizen either Regenerated his Soul Body which would Require a High level of Regen or he Regenerated From EE which is Mid godly. but this is under the assumption that Mugetsu HAD to have had quincies Properties. because if not, it would be Mid High.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Are people just going to ignore the big reply I made above thats strongly specifying Uryu and no other Quincy ever showing the ability to destroy souls in spiritual-based settings outside the living world? Like the Soul Society?

That should have a pretty big significant part to this thread.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Originally the thread for Aizen's Regenerationn was going towards Mid-Godly, but it changed to Low-Godly due to Matthew's say on souls that we had to accept, even Ant had objections but we moved on to appease both sides:

Well, the souls in Bleach aren't exactly incorporeal protoplasm or whatnot. They are molecules and cells, and they age and need to eat (The Shinigami at least), and they react to cold exactly the same as our particles do.

So it ain't exactly fair to give Mid-Godly to something that is so demonstrably physical in practically every way.

Then there's also the assumption that because Ichigo is part Quincy that Mugetsu has to have Quincy's "Soul Destrcution" Properties, which could be true but it's definetly shown to be more Shinigami than Quincy, which is why the end result is Ichigo losing his SHINIGAMI Powers.

Ichigo lost his Shinigami, Hollow and Quincy powers. Quincy Powers make up half of his Reiryoku. His Shinigami Powers are his Hollow Powers since they are mixed together as one. Ichigo literally notes this when Yhwach steals his powers.

In conclusion I believe that this requires far more speculation and guesses to be remotely 100 percent accurate.
There isn't really any speculation since it can be explained with what has been given to us:

Mugetsu is composed of Quincy Powers and Quincy Powers completely destroy the Konpaku (Soul, specifically the body of the soul) as we are repeatedly told.

Aizen is hit by Mugetsu and we see him crumble away. This crumbling effect even resembles the effect of the Quincy when destroying the Konpaku. We even have a text stating, "He (Ichigo) will return everything to nothing...!", during the Mugetsu slash on Aizen.

After this, we don't see Aize on screen anymore and he only shows up after having fallen to the ground as two halves, but Aizen has already begun regenerating as his body is no longer crumbled, just separated.

Aizen's Regenerationn is then explained to us in the final arc as being dependent on his Reiatsu (Spiritual Pressure). So long as Aizen has Reiatsu being produced, he will continue to regenerate. The larger fact here is that Reiatsu is a product of one's Spiritual Energy, Spiritual Energy is a product of one's Soul. Aizen's Regenerationn stems from his Soul and he will regenerate from his Soul. Destroying his body does nothing.

With Mugetsu being composed of Quincy Powers, with Quincy Powers being able to completely destroy the Konpaku (the body of the soul), with the text of Mugetsu turning things to nothing, with Aizen having crumbled away in the same effect as Quincy crumbling Konpaku away, with Aizen having regenerated before he even hit the ground (his body was crumbled and when on the ground his body wasn't crumbled) and with the reveal of Aizen's Regenerationn stemming from his soul in the final arc we can quantify Aizen's Regenerationn as being from his Soul which is Low-Godly.

I personally think that Aizen either Regenerated his Soul Body which would Require a High level of Regen or he Regenerated From EE which is Mid godly. but this is under the assumption that Mugetsu HAD to have had quincies Properties. because if not, it would be Mid High.
I think we're gonna need a whole other CRT for Quincy Properties and Konpaku if people keep bringing up already gone over points from the previous thread.

Existence Erasure keeps getting brought up here repeatedly when we have repeatedly countered that point. The Quincy property is explicitly the complete destruction of the Konpaku (the soul body). As was said in the previous thread, this wasn't deemed as EE nor gave Aizen Mid-Godly because of how Bleach Konpaku (souls) function like a regular body.

And once again, Regenerationn stems from his Reiatsu. Reiatsu stemming from your Reiryoku which comes from inside the soul of a spiritual being. We don't even have to go over the Mugetsu interaction for this.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Quincies completely destroy it as it's been reiterated in the series.


Unless we have proof that Soul destruction in Bleach=means that even their Reishi is destroyed then the best assumtion we can make ranges anywhere from Mid-High to High

Konpaku are made of Reishi exactly like how Kishi (Kishi literally means matter) makes up everything in the real world. Quincy completely destroy them as shown above.
Eradicate and Extinguish dont mean the complete destruction of every part of that being.

Frieza Eradicated the Saiyan race (does that mean Frieza has Soul destruction)

Itachi Extinguished the Entire uchiha Clan. (does this mean that Itachi has Soul Destruction)

We cant use Soul as an argument as stated before Souls in Bleach/= Normal Souls.

Souls in Bleach are just in simple terms, another Race, (which is why you can be born as a Soul)

Literally all this means is that Quincies Kill Hollows and Shinigami Recycle them.

there's nothing more to read into it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Eradicate quite literally means to destroy completely,nice false equivalency though.

 

[Zzsax]

>reply to #413 Originally the thread for Aizen's Regenerationn was going towards Mid-Godly, but it changed to Low-Godly due to Matthew's say on souls that we had to accept, even Ant had objections but we moved on to appease both sides:

Well, the souls in Bleach aren't exactly incorporeal protoplasm or whatnot. They are molecules and cells, and they age and need to eat (The Shinigami at least), and they react to cold exactly the same as our particles do.

So it ain't exactly fair to give Mid-Godly to something that is so demonstrably physical in practically every way.


well I have to say this but bleach souls only react to "spiritual things" not "physical things" ...they only react to cold of the spiritual world and eat food of the spiritual world, so they aren't practically physical in every way.They may not be incorporeal protoplasm but they are made of reishi and not at all of the real world, which is why they are invisible,non-interactable and likely intangible and need Gigai(a vessel) to react properly with the normal world.

Also I am leaning towards @Imade argument now, Mugetsu most likely has quincy destruction properties, especially after seeing Tensa zangetsu rocking those Quincy shoes when training ichigo for FGT..add on the crumbling effect, add on statement about nothing in SS being able to off Aizen for good.

I still think Quincy soul destruction is EE,unlike humans,a soul is the only cognitive metaphysical existence of a shinagmi and erasing that is definitely EE,the hakusei is not synonymous with mind or anything, it's just an energy pump.. but I guess low-godly while not being entirely accurate might be a fine compromise for both sides.

That and this is becoming so freaking long it's ridiculous

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Originally the thread for Aizen's Regenerationn was going towards Mid-Godly, but it changed to Low-Godly due to Matthew's say on souls that we had to accept, even Ant had objections
And once again, Regenerationn stems from his Reiatsu. Reiatsu stemming from your Reiryoku which comes from inside the soul of a spiritual being. We don't even have to go over the Mugetsu interaction for this.

Reryoku is the manifestaion of the spiritual sensitivity and willpower of the user which comes from the Shinigami's Soul/heart which is part of their body. Shinigami's dont have souls in the way we know them. Shinigami's bodies are their souls, the problem comes from the fact that their souls dont follow the guidlines of what we consider souls.

So when they say they drawing power from their own Souls, they are not talking about a soul with in a soul but their very own being. think of it like chakra.


Considering the points you made about Mugetsu

this leaves still only two Options


1. Quincies Destruction of the Soul just means the death of the soul (body) , in which case Aizen could have regenerated from his spirit body which is made from Reishi, which would mean High Rege


or Quincies destroy every single aspect of the Soul on every level including Reishi.. in which case Aizen Regenerated from literally nothing, which would indicate Mid Godly Rege

 

[Damage3245]

My mind isn't exactly fully changed but at this point I don't see much point in continuing to argue about it, so I'm retracting my support for the downgrade and changing my position to neutral.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Aizen could have regenerated from his spirit body which is made from Reishi

not from, thats a typo

Correction

Aizen could have regenerated his spirit body from Reishi which the their souls are made of.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The Way Bleach's Souls work dont allow for Low godly regen, were ignoring the mechanics of the verse to fit what ever narrative we want.

If quincies truly wipe out every aspect of a Soul then Aizen should have mid godly regen.

 

[Zzsax]

Are people just going to ignore the big reply I made above thats strongly specifying Uryu and no other Quincy ever showing the ability to destroy souls in spiritual-based settings outside the living world? Like the Soul Society?

That should have a pretty big significant part to this thread.

I think the crumbling erasing effect only happens when they are killed not when they are injured..and soul reapers are oh so hard to kill,so there aren't many examples.But Yama-ji seems to be a good example,i don't think his body was ever shown after Yhwach barrage them with arrows

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Yama was destroyed completely,only his sword remained although dead.

 

[The_mysterious_man]

didn't Orihime said she couldn't revive people in the war who there body and Reiatsu are completely gone that's what Quincy do

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Eradicate and Extinguish dont mean the complete destruction of every part of that being.

Literally all this means is that Quincies Kill Hollows and Shinigami Recycle them.

there's nothing more to read into it.

Completely eradicates, completely extinguishes.

I'm literally tired of people not clicking scans and spreading a false narrative. If you had even clicked one of the scans I linked about the Quincies destroying souls and read it, you would have seen that ever single one of the scans had the word "complete(ly)" in describing eradicte and extinguish. This point is done.


So when they say they drawing power from their own Souls, they are not talking about a soul with in a soul but their very own being. think of it like chakra.
This diagram and description of a Spiritual Being pulling their Spiritual Powers from within (their soul it explicitly says) disagrees with this notion. Do you have any scans to counter this?

1. Quincies Destruction of the Soul just means the death of the soul (body) , in which case Aizen could have regenerated from his spirit body which is made from Reishi, which would mean High Regen or Quincies destroy every single aspect of the Soul on every level including Reishi.. in which case Aizen Regenerated from literally nothing, which would indicate Mid Godly Rege
Third Option: The Konpaku is separate from the actual Soul given the diagram and description of Souls and Reiryoku. Quincy Properties destroy the Konpaku (soul body) and Aizen's Regenerationn stems from his soul as Mayuri stated.

There are 4 things we know and can't ignore:

1) Aizen's Regenerationn stems from Reiatsu, his soul.

2) Quincy abilities destroy the Konpaku completely as every statement literally says.

3) Konpaku are separate from the inner soul per diagrams and statements we are given in the series.

4) Aizen was hit and enveloped by Mugetsu.

P.S. Nearly 3 am for me. I'll respond to anymore comments or questions tomorrow (if the thread doesn't get filled since we are over 420 out of 500 comments now).

 

[Zzsax]

didn't Orihime said she couldn't revive people in the war who there body and Reiatsu are completely gone that's what Quincy do

A scan would be nice, that would go a long way here

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Shinigami draw their power from their Hakusui or soul sleep, however this soul sleep isnt disconnected from their Spirit bodies but simply a part of it, it's why it's considered a pressure point on a shinigami, because it can be both pierced or sealed by other shinigami. Essentially it's like the human heart for shinigami, which is what Byakuya did to Ichigo he absolutely destroyed Ichigo's Saketsu and Hakusui, and what happened? he was reverted to a Plus not killed

https://www.***********.net/bleach/59/14

Read Above



How many times must I debunk this, Shinigami dont have seperate Souls in their spirit forms. the fact that Shinigami can destroy this so called inner soul completely debunks the Quincy destroying specific "inner Souls" thing unless you want argue that every single shinigami has soul destruction.

Shinigami powers or

Reiryoku
come from a Shinigami's Saketsu and Hakusui, which is why when those two things are destroyed. Shinigami no longer have powers.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

soul sleep or Hakusui isn't an actual Soul but just a special part of the Shinigami's body that generates Reiryoku. it's why Shinigami can survive having their "Soul Sleep" destroyed or sealed

Anyway, this is getting absolutely redundant.

I don't agree that Eradicate means destroying the soul on every level including The Reishi but if you do and the majority do then great, that's fine. but that still means Aizen won't have Low Godly Regen, it would be Mid godly as pointed above. Shinigami don't have souls within souls.

and with that im leaving this Thread for good.

 

[Zzsax]

according to this Yama-ji's body is no where to be found because the Yhwach destroyed it, with other supporting feats,it's pretty save to say souls gets destroyed on every level when killed via soul destruction

 

[Bobybobster]

People actually think souls in bleach have souls?

 

[Zzsax]

@Imade

This diagram and description of a Spiritual Being pulling their Spiritual Powers from within (their soul it explicitly says) disagrees with this notion. Do you have any scans to counter this?

your own scan kinda counters this, there is no soul or consciousness within a konpaku(soul)what you keep on referring to is a spirit energy pump at most,A "heart for reiryoku" if you will, it's just a body part which spirit beings have.Shinigami pull spirit energy from within their "own souls",soul is synonymous with body at this scenario might I remind you.shinigami are souls,and that fact is just too straight forward.

Do souls have body????yeah they do in some cases but that doesn't stop them from being souls.who posses things and can also posses a human body (via a Gigai)


In Supernatural(CW TV series),when Dean took a trip to purgatory,he was able to interact with souls there, like stab them in the heart and such,because they all had a physical body in that realm,but that didn't stop them from being souls, or suddenly having another soul inside their souls

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

At this point this is going absolutely nowhere and I feel we should just keep Low-Godly and move on.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

No offense Matt or anyone else but I feel like the low godly argument was made to avoid the Mid godly one.

also more importantly why am I getting messages from this thread despite unfollowing

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because you haven't unfollowed?

 

[AppleLord]

I'm neutral on this for now, but I lean toward Mid-Godly who has the better arguments.

 

[Dr.Fix]

I just want it said for the record that I should not be included in Imade's list of suporting possibly. I respect that Matt is staff and within the confines of this forum he has final say regardless of anything else. Tha's all I meant in my last post. My position is clearly against Godly because the burden of proof has not only not been meant but agreed upon it has not been met.

Furthermore if it pleases I will submit a breakdown of why the "kopaku" argument is faulty. I did not do so earlier because it detracted away from the OP's discusion and I thought addressing how low godly regen was never shown was more important then addressing Imade's theories about Spiritual bodies.

It will take some time though since my connection has been having issues all week. Should have something by end of day or sooner.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Honestly, I lean towards Aizen NOT having Low-Godly. Mainly, because to me, nothing about Mugetsu ever suggests that it's anything but a severely amped up cutting attack. Anything after that just comes off as speculation. Based on that, I don't see anything concrete enough to give Aizen anything approaching Low-Godly.

But, at the end of the day, I REALLY don't care one way or the other. Mostly because the discussions about Bleach get WAY too complicated for a series that runs on Rule of Cool more than anything else.

Seriously, every Bleach debate I ever see turns into such a slog or hot mess, that I don't usually want to touch it.

 

[AppleLord]

There was a rule that we could use the anime to back up a feat if the manga couldn't provide a clear representation. What happened with that?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Why are people still ignoring my bit about Quincies's spiritual powers working differently outside the living world?

Are people just going to ignore the big reply I made above thats strongly specifying Uryu and no other Quincy ever showing the ability to destroy souls in spiritual-based settings outside the living world? Like the Soul Society?
That should have a pretty big significant part to this thread.

Whether Mugetsu has Quincy powers or not, people shouldnt be disregarding this that ive had to make a reminder about 3 times now. But this thread is getting ridiculously long, so either make a continuation or just close it.

 

[AppleLord]

The Quincy killing Hollows in Hueco Mundo (not the living world) was the cause for the whole unbalance of the scale mention in the war. In the novel Ichibei didn't killed Grimmjow, Nel and Halibel because the worlds were left in the bring of collapse because of the Quincy erasing the souls from the cycle of reincarnation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No offense, but it's getting a bit annoying to hear "in the novel" mentions for Bleach without any links of it even being posted. Not that im denying them, im just saying it would make this a lot easier if people actually provided some evidence/basis for them instead of claiming it.

Anywho, could you bring scans of Quincy destroying Hollows in Hueco Mundo the same way they do in the living world?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I think we should close this thread for now

it's nearing 500 posts