Ainchase Death hax and Type 2 NEP

[XDragnoir]

So, here is the main quote.

Glave: You may think Henir is dangerous because it's the opposite of Elria, but it's actually not what you think. Elria created this world using Henir's Chaos and chaos is an infinite source of energy. So, this world already contains some aspects of Henir.

Elesis: The world was made with Henir...?

Chung: I had no idea. What is the nature of Henir?

Glave: Extinction. Henir symbolizes infinity, but at the same time, the power to turn everything into nothing. Your mortality is the very proof of Henir's influence.

Aisha: How strange. I've read every history book I've come across but I've never heard any of this. Does that mean any knowledge related to Henir is being controlled?



The first two are proof that Ain (Henir's Chaos) was a thing before the Multiverse, he is also described as the void before and after creation and absolute nothingness in other situations, the other two i thought could be death hax since just existence erasure can't explain that.

 

[XDragnoir]

bump

 

[00potato]

This isn’t an indication of NEP?
I don’t get how it is at all.
The first quote just states that Henir’s chaos existed before all and was an infinite source of energy. (Doesn’t being a big source of energy and being being what the world was made from contradict NEP anyway.)


Death Hax quote is too vauge since we don’t actually see any death happening, how does it work, what does it do, turning everything into nothing might just be EE anyway. It doesn’t describe it as killing but turning into nothing

 

[Rikimarox2]

I don't think predating the Multiverse is enough to warrant NEP2, unless Henir actually predates literally everything, including all of its concepts. As much as I love my boi getting NEP2, but this really isn't enough proof.

Not sure bout death hax and stuff, seems kinda vague to me.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, I don't see indication of this being NEP, it sounds like the guy pretty much exist. Predating the universe do not make someone nonexistent, it just may grant powers related to Acausality.

 

[XDragnoir]

From Herrscher lore:


"Ain is the Master of Void, reborn from emptiness"

and

"He was no longer of this world, merely a vestige of chaos.

"I stand here... At the end of all things..."

As the Master of Void, he simultaneously exists everywhere, and nowhere. He guides the pitiful to his realm of Void."


And Ain's true form description:

"A dimension of void and futility"



From the NEP page:

"Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels."

He fits in all 4, primordial void, emptiness, Henir created his Realm before Elria so Ain precedes space and time as we know, opposition is present in Henir's title (God of Darkness) and Elria's (Goddess of Light).


As for death hax, it isn't much elaborated afaik, but Extinction has different effects than Henir's other aspects, which destroy/erase Creation when interacting with it, while Extinction is specificaly said to be the reason of their (humans, and presumably any lifeform) mortality, combine this quote with the fact fragments of Henir were used to create the Multiverse and him being at the end of all things and the conclusion is that he is the death/mortality of all things, humans included.

 

[00potato]

Let’s look at all of these
1 Reborn from emptyness/ Master of the void.
All this means is that he pulled a Jesus and can wield the void.
2
Just calling him otherworldly and vaugely related to chaos.
3
Just says he will stand at the end of everything. Not NEP
4
This is just omnipresence, has nothing to do with existence.
5
Even more vauge. It is a big void
All this says is that a big void exists and Ains controls it. None of it seems like it fits the description raises a few similar word choices. Chaos/Henir is described as an infinite source of energy in one quote, a part of Elnir’s realm in another, and a Realm before Elnir’s in your description.
Not enough reasoning besides loose connections.

 

[XDragnoir]

Chaos/Henir is described as an infinite source of energy in one quote, a part of Elnir’s realm in another, and a Realm before Elnir’s in your description.

You are mixing the names, Henir is the God of Darkness, Henir's Chaos/Realm is a place, Chaos is one of the things inside it, Elria (not Elnir) is the Goddess of Light who created the multiverse (Elria's Creation) after Henir created his Realm. Other than that i have nothing to add.

Well, if type 2 nep isn't valid, like Antoniofer said it could grant something related to acausality, i think predating spacetime is type 2? Maybe type 4?

 

[00potato]

Sorry about the confusion the names do blur when you are focused on writing.
If I do read the story than I will remember Elvira’s name better.

 

[XDragnoir]

Any other opinion about death and/or acausality?

 

[00potato]

Wouldn’t Acausality be if he was before time? I don’t see that mentioned, just being before the multiverse.
Death hax reads more like EE if you ask me.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, multiverse = countless/infinite timelines created by Elria. There is also the outer layer of Henir's Realm, where Glave lives, called Henir's Time and Space, and this is said about it:

"Legend has it that the god Henir endured Ragnarok, and afterwards created a place where there is no limitation of time and space" (this one is more about the core of Henir's Realm)

and

"Time and Space is in complete chaos." (this one is about the outer layer)

In game, this place is a special dungeon which allows you to fight against past, current, and future enemies of the main quests. I think this is probably type 4: "Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality"

I don't understand how being the reason of the mortality of all living beings can be EE.

Mortality = limited lifespan, there is no way to say limited lifespan = existence erasure.

 

[00potato]

Acausality should be fine for Henir then.
The Death manip, “mortality.” In the scan above is only used once, describing Ain (I assume it’s him.) in terms of his relationship to Henir. I don’t see anything about everything’s mortality.

 

[XDragnoir]

The word "Extinction" is used, which refers to an entire species dying. Glave says the proof of Elria using portions of Henir's Realm to create the Multiverse is "your mortality", "your" here is Glave talking about humans/living beings in general (Glave isn't mortal anymore). Ain isn't even there, so there is something clearly wrong with your current interpretation of the quote.

 

[00potato]

The extinction by itself would be fine but the issue is right after, it is eleborated as returning all to nought, which reads more like EE.

 

[XDragnoir]

And right after that he talks about mortality again.

So the 1st part is about a small portion of Henir (extinction), 2nd part is Glave giving the full picture of all Henir can do (everything becomes nothing) and the 3rd part is him talking about where they, "normal" humans, can see this aspect of Henir.

 

[00potato]

But it is too vauge for anything meaningful.
Is it something actively called upon. Is it a natural result of humanity being made in a world such as this. It doesn’t seem like it is actively causing their death, just why mortality can exist. I don’t see how that is any sort of death hax, since he isn’t just choosing who dies or when.

 

[XDragnoir]

Being the reason why mortality exists is by itself death hax, passive, in this case.

 

[00potato]

It seems more indirect. If we do give it to him. It can’t be combat applicable. People do seem to be dying by traditional means. It is just because of him Death works. So it isn’t something that can be used.

 

[XDragnoir]

Extinction is an expect of the void, just like Chaos and Entropy, Elria mixed small amounts of these things in the multiverse, it would be combat applicable because the core of Henir is the source of all these aspects.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Following

 

[XDragnoir]

bump?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Just a question, what type of Acausality would he get, considering he's before the multiverse?
Also, I'm neutral on the death hax.

 

[XDragnoir]

Type 4, probably.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Nice

 

[XDragnoir]

Bump?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Necro bump, but just a question, who created the concepts of the world? Was it Elria?

 

[XDragnoir]

Likely, she has at least control of them even if she did not create them since Ain has control over the aspects from Henir's Realm.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I mean, if she created the concepts of the world, and Henir predates everything including those concepts, then I believe that NEP2. Since there are a few characters who got NEP2 due to similar reasons.

 

[00potato]

Extinction is an expect of the void, just like Chaos and Entropy, Elria mixed small amounts of these things in the multiverse, it would be combat applicable because the core of Henir is the source of all these aspects.

But the only evidence is an indirect statement, even then the wording suggest that he made mortals mortal rather then directly killing them.
So not directly combat applicable, Extinction being an aspect doesn’t change that unless it is shown to directly death hax people.

 

[XDragnoir]

Death hax does not need to be direct or to happen instantly to be valid death hax, Glaive, who has more knowledge about Henir than any other character, said it is the cause of them (mortals) having mortality, so whoever faces Ain, who has complete control over all aspects, will also have to resist having mortality added to them if they don't have it

 

[00potato]

Yes it does.
If you aren’t directly killing them with the hax, it isn’t death hax.
Glave’s statement doesn’t state that they are dying because Henir kills them, just that mortals are set up in a way where they are able to die because of him.
The “hax.” Isn’t hax, it is just a normal fact of life, at best not combat applicable.

 

[XDragnoir]

Wtf? He created this normal act of life, it literally means mortality/death wouldn't exist had Elria not used fragments of Henir to create the multiverse.

If you read the page right now, you can see that nothing there states that the death needs to happen instantly.

And it is combat applicable, tier 2 battles can keep going for much more than billions of years, at some point the opponent would die if they don't resist.

 

[00potato]

That isn’t death hax though.
I could see immortality negation but he isn’t directly killing them.
It doesn’t need to be instant, yes, but it needs to be direct act from the haxor.

Die from what? It isn’t said that Henir is directly killing them, so it must be something that kills normal mortals, like ageing. So I will settle on Immortality Negation, not death hax.

 

[XDragnoir]

That's actually fine by me, i will add it then, are we finished here?

 

[00potato]

Sure. Just replace Death Manip with Immortality Negation and we good.