Adult Naruto, Sasuke and Momoshiki (Fused) should be At least Planetary (with a ton of evidence) (Novel, movie & manga confirmation)

[TataHakai]

Ok hear me out, i know this topic has probably been discussed dozens of times but i believe that they really should be upgraded to that level, this is pretty long but i have evidence to support my points

Momoshiki SHOULD be scaled to Kaguya, there's literally absolutely no reason for him not to be

1. Kaguya was literally so scared of Momoshiki and Kinshiki that she sacrificed the entire world and was prepared to kill her two sons


Sasuke talking about Momoshiki and Kinshiki

2. Sasuke confirms that the threat of Momoshiki and Kinshiki is even scarier than Kaguya herself which backs up Kaguya being scared of Momoshiki and Kinshiki (Every translation confirms this)


.

The used excuse for not accepting these statements are "feats don't back it up" which is quiet honestly ridicolous, how does this wiki have Yhwach at Planeta


ry+ via it being "backed up repeteadly via statements" and yet we have multiple statements that back up Momoshiki being stronger than Kaguya yet won't accept it because lack of feats, ism't that contradictory?
HOWEVER there are feats in this instance, I'll point you to the Boruto novel which was novelized by the same person who helped write the move alongside Kishimoto, Ukyō Kodachi he also helped write the novel in some way or another i believe (http://www.****************/manga/boruto-naruto-the-movie-light-novel) < Kishimoto is given credit as the artist

(http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2017-04-07/boruto-franchise-gets-novel-on-may-2/.114419) < Kishimoto stated to be working on the novel

Alright so now that the novel has been proven to be canon

I'd like to turn your attentions to some statements made in the novel about where they were exactly, the translation can be found here > http://web.archive.org/web/20160214...56/boruto-the-movie-novelization-chapter-five

Chapter 5 "He didn't think they'd gotten very far from the village of Konohagakure, but, rather than saying this was some place he didn't remember, it'd be more accurate to say this was a parallel world."

"but this place shouldn't be all that different from his own world."

"It's the same as Kaguya, huh." "Kaguya had held the power of sending people into parallel worlds too… Is this something like a kekkai, or a subspace?"

"He was even draining the chakra that was beyond the parallel dimension he'd made"

"Don't tell me he's…!"

"Aa. He plans to indiscriminately eat up all of this

star's chakra." (Star is usually mistranslated, a lot of the time star really means planet which would be safer to assume here)

In chapter 4

http://web.archive.org/web/20160226...06/boruto-the-movie-novelization-chapter-four

"It looks like the reason Kaguya was gathering White Zetsu soldiers was so she could fight against them…"

In other words, they were enemies who even Kaguya wouldn't have been able to oppose without an army."

So Long story short

We have SOOOO many confirmations across several canon sources that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are superior to Kaguya, it's been stated a ridicolous amount of times now and at this point it just makes absolutely no sense to avoid

More importantly we Know that Momoshiki created a Parallel dimension to earth

If you want to say it's parallel it's planet sized

if you want to say it's been compared to Kaguya's it's planet sized

There's no way around it, He created a planet sized parallel dimension to earth and thus HAD to have matched the GBE of the planet which should scale to his attacks

My Suggestions

Fused Momoshik should be upgraded to 5-B via scaling to Kaguya and Creating a planet sized parallel dimension

Adult Naruto should be Upgraded to 5-B via scaling to Momoshiki

Adult Sasuke should be upgraded to 5-B via scaling to Momoshiki

To sum it all up, there's just far too much evidence that Momoshiki fused is superior to Kaguya, it is impossible to ignore so many statements on the same thing as we have Yhwach at planetary for the exact same reason, he also has feats to back it up as he created a parallel dimension to Kaguya

We have Teen Sasuke and Naruto at small planet+ and it's not exactly ridicolous to suggest they got stronger by ONE TIER after 10 years.

 

[Jonathanlighter]

i support this

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Seems like good reasoning to me.

 

[LazyHunter]

Sasuke is talking about a possibility, "someone scarier than Kaguya might come". This is not a certainty, so it's not a statement confirming them being stronger than Kaguya like you seem to believe.

The White Zetsu army argument is also poor, as they should be mostly useless at the level Kaguya and Momoshiki are one way or the other.

Even if the original author worked on it I think you need a little more evidence to make the novel canon. Also, didn't the Boruto manga redid the movie plot and changed some stuff? Because taking that and how the Boruto version might also be retold in the anime, that might be the new canon version, just like what happened with Dragon Ball Super and the two previous Dragon Ball movies. In that case, even if the novel was canon before (and IMO it's dubious), now it might be not as the previous plot has been replaced by a new version.

IMO you lack evidence supporting your claims, as the manga ones you provide are not that good and the novel ones depend on your assumption that the novel adaptation of a movie that looks to not be canon anymore is canon just because Kishimoto worked on it.

 

[Omimi]

Momoshiki and Kinshiki /Fused Momoshik cant be stronger then kaguya

they r still weaker then kaguya

+ kaguya wasnt even full at time when she fought both naruto sasuke

cuz naruto had atleast 20% if not more of her chakra

so prime kaguya should be stronger then vote2 kaguya

kaguya has feats 4-C to 4-B but it was state to be outlier here

so i think it shoud not be outlier anymore cuz Momoshik also created a dimension

but in my opinion Fused Momoshik and Adult Sasuke,Adult naruto can be scaling from vote2 kaguya(i will only agree with this)

 

[Burstchaos]

Are we forgetting that this 'army' is composed of complete fodder? It's like if a human recruits millions of ants to fight against two other humans, they won't play any role in the fight. Plus, I don't think it was ever clarified if they were talking about Momoshiki alone or the entire Otsutsuki race and even if it was the former, I'd put that in the same place where Pains statement of 'Jiraiya being stronger than him' belongs. I think the only thing that means anything is that planet creation.

 

[TataHakai]

"Sasuke is talking about a possibility, "someone scarier than Kaguya might come". "

No, Sasuke is saying that there is a possibility that they will come, them being stronger than kaguya is blatantly stated over both the manga and the novel.

The white zetsu argument is being taken out of context here, the point is not that the zetsu army were composed of fodder but the fact that Kaguya felt that without the army she could not have possibly won which is LITERALLY stated in the novel.

Yes the Zetsu army are fodder but she wasn't going to let them just fight Momoshiki and Kinshiki, it would obviously be her fighting aside the army which is a stronger opposing force than her alone.

there is NO main canon for Boruto, kishimoto works on the novel, movie and the anime and the manga. However he's not the only writer, it makes no sense to hold the movie as canon and not the novel since Kishimoto and Kodachi were the main writers for both of these, in my opinion these are both canon.

 

[TataHakai]

There's no way so many statements and feats supporting Planetary scaling for all three of these characters can be ignored, there are plenty of other characters that have their stats in certain places via statements alone.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Sasuke is talking about a possibility, "someone scarier than Kaguya might come". This is not a certainty, so it's not a statement confirming them being stronger than Kaguya like you seem to believe.
The White Zetsu army argument is also poor, as they should be mostly useless at the level Kaguya and Momoshiki are one way or the other.

Even if the original author worked on it I think you need a little more evidence to make the novel canon. Also, didn't the Boruto manga redid the movie plot and changed some stuff? Because taking that and how the Boruto version might also be retold in the anime, that might be the new canon version, just like what happened with Dragon Ball Super and the two previous Dragon Ball movies. In that case, even if the novel was canon before (and IMO it's dubious), now it might be not as the previous plot has been replaced by a new version.

IMO you lack evidence supporting your claims, as the manga ones you provide are not that good and the novel ones depend on your assumption that the novel adaptation of a movie that looks to not be canon anymore is canon just because Kishimoto worked on it.

This^^^ These characters are ok in the tier they are now. Also Naruto is not DBZ. There is a certain level of power the characters have and can not surpass. Naruto and Sasuke can not surpass characters like Kaguya, Madara and Hagoromo even if they train. All of these guys have powers beyond them (the Juubi/Holy Tree or the God fruit). They will have to receive similar power ups to surpass them which is unlikely.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

What ╬Ü╬ƒ╬£╬Ö╬× said.

 

[TataHakai]

What

So all the evidence over Multiple canon sources is simple thrown away because "Eh, they're ok in that tier"

We've seen Sasuke and Naruto both get enormously more powerful over several timeskips (Chunin exams, Shippuden etc.) So are you really suggesting that two characters cannot go from Casually Moon+/Small planet+ to Planetary in TEN YEARS time? It's not as if every single shonen in existence has powerups over timeskips right? That's literally a typical shonen move

Saying "They can't get stronger than Kaguya because i myself believe the rest a cap" is such a ridiculous and biased way to look at it

"This isn't DBZ" sorry to tell ya pal, 99.99999% of fiction isnt DBZ....so what is your point there?

Naruto and Sasuke were far inferior to Kakashi and they both surpassed him

Naruto and Sasuke were far inferior to Madara to the point where both of them died and yet after the sage amps they were constantly destroying him

Naruto was inferior to Sasuke and yet he surpassed him Sasuke was inferior to Itachi yet he eventually surpassed him

See the pattern here? Naruto and Sasuke have constantly surpassed their opponents in the entirety of the series

There's far too much evidence to just say "Nah they're alright in that tier" and at this point they're just blatantly being denied an upgrade because there's some kind of mentality of "Anything above small planet is too high for the HST (Minus Kaguya and Yhwach)"

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Disagree with this also for reasons above. Especially on the army part for why would Kaguya waste time AND power to make an army of beings who are complete fodder? So fodder that even average ninja can defeat them? Momoshiki would blink and theyd all be turned to dust so its not like the army is any help in any way.

EDIT: Something else people should understand. Threat does not mean someone is at a certain level in almost any case. For example, someone can be a threat to the entire universe but that doesnt even make them tier 3. Otherwise Namek Saga Frieza would have been given that treatment already. Also, maybe Momoshiki is a far scarier threat because unlike Kaguya, he isn't an idiot, uses his powers far more competently and isnt merciful?

 

[Dark649]

According to your logic after the last Naruto and Sasuke should be above Kaguya, but i disagree because Naruto had problems fighting Shi, who is not even akatsuki level.

 

[TataHakai]

That's not for you to decide, comparing the zetsu that Kaguya created to the ones that were shown in the war arc also makes no sense since we don't know if they are of the same strength

Unless you're implying that the entire zetsu army in the war were as strong as the one who was manipulating Madara which is obviously not the case

And again this is being taken out of context, the point is not the strength of the army, the point is that Kaguya felt that she could not win without the army which is literally stated in the novel

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

According to your logic after the last Naruto and Sasuke should be above Kaguya, but i disagree because Naruto had problems fighting Shi, who is not even akatsuki level.

To be fair here wouldnt this be considered a PIS? Along with the fact that Naruto was rusty at the time?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That's not for you to decide, comparing the zetsu that Kaguya created to the ones that were shown in the war arc also makes no sense since we don't know if they are of the same strengt

An assumption. There's no reason at all why they'd be different zetsu.

And clearly not because the one who manipulated Madara was Black Zetsu. The army was nothing but fodder White Zetsu.

And what kind of point is it then? Feeling the need to make an army which no matter which way you slice it is unbelieveably fodder to beat someone who might hold a threat sounds very poor as noted above. Clearly its obvious if Kaguya felt she herself can't beat them, weaker allies wouldnt stand a chance.

 

[TataHakai]

That entire fight was PIS, Sasuke was somehow hurt by blades just for him to look "heroic" against Shin.

And i may have to go and reread it but if i recall correctly the only yime Naruto was seen struggling was when Sasuke's sword plunged into him and that's hardly usable since

1. That's hax 2. He was off guard

 

[TataHakai]

So is yours

And actually there is, Kaguya and Madara's infinite tsukiyomi are initiated in different ways and thus this would back the fact that the zetsu are different, more than assuming they're the same, which has less proof. Either way we're both assuming

And i literally just reread that entire fight, Naruto said Sasuke wasn't going all out plus he literally wasn't so much as scratched besides what i mentioned above

 

[TataHakai]

And for the last time; Kaguya's actions are being taken out of context

She did what SHE felt was needed to beat them, that doesn't necessarily mean she WOULD have beat them but it does mean she was scared enough to do something about it

 

[Authorofall]

By turning the inhabitants of the world into white zetsus upon casting IT, Kaguya gains access to the chakra of all those zetsus and can syphon them whenever at will. That's the practical use for amassing an army.

 

[TataHakai]

I'm aware of this and her actions are being taken out of context because "Zetsu are fodder" which is completely irrelevant to the point

Kaguya WAS scared Sasuke said they're scarier than Kaguya Every canon source out there says they're a bigger threat than Kaguya and she was scared of them

At this point it's just blatantly ignoring clear evidence

 

[Authorofall]

Of course she was scared lol. She—a mother—wanted to turn her 2 sons into vegetable as well as create an army of white zetsus all for the sake of combating Momo and his mate.

 

[LazyHunter]

@UchihaVision The evidence you are giving in this thread literally says "it's possible that something far scarier than Kaguya has appeared in this area" and "the possibility that something that'd frighten even Kaguya could one day appear". As I explained, any evidence from the novel doesn't hold any value until you prove it's canon. If you have better evidence from the manga that definitely confirms them as stronger than Kaguya I'll concede this point, so far I'm not convinced.

It doesn't matter what Kaguya thought or felt (in fact, her lack of tactics or battle smarts in canon counts against her in this case). A White Zetsu army should at most be a speedbump for her or any ninja capable of giving her a fight even if she participates in the fight, and thus, it's not a useful tool against a superior opponent in direct combat. Once again, novel evidence holds no value until you give evidence it's canon.

there is NO main canon for Boruto, kishimoto works on the novel, movie and the anime and the manga. However he's not the only writer, it makes no sense to hold the movie as canon and not the novel since Kishimoto and Kodachi were the main writers for both of these, in my opinion these are both canon.

Your personal opinion of the novel being canon is irrelevant as that is not proof. I already mentioned that IMO Kishimoto being involved is not evidence enough for a novel adaptation being canon over the movie. However, and this is the point you fail to brush away, it doesn't even matter because the Boruto series has replaced the movie version of events. There are three options here given that Boruto is the official continuation of the manga.

a) Manga is canon.

b) Anime is canon.

c) The canon is a mixture of the two.

In any of these cases, the Boruto series retelling of the Boruto movie becomes the new canon, replacing the movie. Thus, even if you had evidence that the novel is canon, it no longer is and thus any statements or feats from it are invalid.

 

[TataHakai]

Exactly

It would make absolutely no sense for Kaguya to create an Army and prepare to kill her two sons if she could just defeat them, thus the only logical explanation left is that they are stronger than Kaguya and this is literally stated again and again and again and again and again over so many canon sources

Like i said, we have other characters on certain tiers based on repeated statements, this is the exact same case here.

 

[Authorofall]

Kaguya deceived the world and was significant in its history. For example, she manipulated the Uchiha Stone and deceived Madara into doing exactly what she wanted. She was certainly not lacking intellect.

 

[Dark649]

Yes. Madara was deceived by the stone, but it was the PIS that allowed Kaguya to rise, also she was outsmarted several time by Naruto and the others to the point that Black Zetsu had to guide her.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kaguya deceived the world and was significant in its history. For example, she manipulated the Uchiha Stone and deceived Madara into doing exactly what she wanted. She was certainly not lacking intellect.

No she didnt, she was sealed at that time. Zetsu was the one who did that.

 

[Authorofall]

Exactly

It would make absolutely no sense for Kaguya to create an Army and prepare to kill her two sons if she could just defeat them, thus the only logical explanation left is that they are stronger than Kaguya and this is literally stated again and again and again and again and again over so many canon sources

Like i said, we have other characters on certain tiers based on repeated statements, this is the exact same case here.

Here is what I've observed so far.

Naruto has many oppositions (so it's expected). Some are mods that sometimes don't know what they're talking about, and repeatedly propose closing threads or do so themselves when their integrity is questioned. I suspect this thread won't be any different.

 

[Authorofall]

Yes. Madara was deceived by the stone, but it was the PIS that allowed Kaguya to rise, also she was outsmarted several time by Naruto and the others to the point that Black Zetsu had to guide her.

Black Zetsus IS her WILL. He literally came from her lol. Her Will had information on the current world and it's people, but her agenda was to take Naruto's and Sasuke's chakra just like she almost did her 2 sons—for a grander goal.

I'm surprised any even attempt finding some kind of distinction. If Black Zetsus is considered intelligent, that's a reflection on her.

 

[PaChi2]

If Momoshiki and Kinshiki (separately) were a threat to Kaguya, their fusion should be comparable to her.

"Its a new form", just like in other verses.

The adult versions should still remain were they are, tho. Naruto was stated to be rusty and suddenly he could oneshot momoshiki? (unless you want to believe that Boruto's chakra was the majority in that rasengan). Both of them fighting fused momo on even ground is PIS.

 

[TataHakai]

Not one shot but a Naruto that had been massively drained of chakra and was limited to Taijutsu was able to fight on par with Fused momoshiki

I've already stated that there is no main canon

If we go by "Kishimoto wrote it so it's canon" then Kishimoto is credited as helping write the novel with the other author being the very same person who Kishimoto wrote the movie with

Both the movie and novel have the same credibility as canon

 

[Omimi]

White Zetsu.

all White Zetsu r not fodder remember 1 White Zetsu fought killer bee

 

[Omimi]

she was scared entire Otsutsuki race not just momoshiki and kinshiki

╬Ü╬ƒ╬£╬Ö╬×

Naruto and Sasuke can not surpass characters like Kaguya, Madara and Hagoromo even if they trai

maybe sasuke and naruto cant surpass them but they can be same tier

jus like how goku and beerus in same tier

 

[LlamaGod1411]

Not really sure about this but just pointing out the fact that Naruto not stomping Shin casually was PIS and that is a lol arguemnt that shouldn't be used.

And the argument that White Zetsu = Fodder doesn't really mean much, no? That would only imply how scared Kaguya was, if she was willing to do everything to fight Momoshiki.

Besides, why does everyone think that Momoshiki/Kinshiki are the guys Kaguya was scared of? For all we know it might be someone else.

 

[TataHakai]

Because we're literally told in the novel that she was building up an army to fight them and that she could not win against those two specifically if she didn't have an army

I'm fine with them being scaled to Kaguya if people are so hesitant to accepted the upgrade but surely you can't have a ten year difference in time and assume they stayed the same/got weaker especially with all the evidence pointing towards them fighting opponents stronger than Kaguya

Even if you want to deny nearly a dozen statements Momoshiki still has the feat of creating that dimension which doesn't contradict the storyline and was written by Kishimoto, that's enough justification of it being canon

 

[LlamaGod1411]

Eh I'm not really against your point, Lol.

Just that people are arguing against "she could not win against those two specifically if she didn't have an army"

The thing is that Kaguya wouldn't even have won with an army. I'm fine-ish with Momoshiki being stronger than Kaguya.

 

[Dark649]

I'm fine with them being scaled to Kaguya. Even if you want to deny nearly a dozen statements Momoshiki still has the feat of creating that dimension which doesn't contradict the storyline and was written by Kishimoto.

That will likely not happen as most of the importart users will disagree with that, especially the star to dimension creation because having 4-C or higher Naruto characters is inconstistent.

 

[TataHakai]

Just like i stated in the post, Star is generally mistranslated from japanese

At times it can refer to "planet" as a star which makes sense since they call it a parellel dimension

Naruto, Momoshiki and Sasuke should be upgraded to 4-B at the very least

 

[KuuIchigo]

lol

 

[TataHakai]

https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/100975/can-star-mean-planet-outside-astrology

As stated here, Star can mean star or planet

Since we're told it's parallel to our world it'd be safest to assume it means planet here