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Adult Naruto, Sasuke and Momoshiki (Fused) should be At least Planetary (with a ton of evidence) (Novel, movie & manga confirmation)
- Thread starter TataHakai
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- #43
"Not significant information"
> it's compared to Kaguya's planet sized dimensions > Literally called a planet > Literally stated to be parallel to Naruto's world several times
I don't know how much more "significant" it can get
And like i said, the word can be translated differently. I've seen this before in other works of fiction such as Magi where a planet is called a star, it can mean either in japanese
> it's compared to Kaguya's planet sized dimensions > Literally called a planet > Literally stated to be parallel to Naruto's world several times
I don't know how much more "significant" it can get
And like i said, the word can be translated differently. I've seen this before in other works of fiction such as Magi where a planet is called a star, it can mean either in japanese
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- #44
It's clearly the authors intent to have Naruto and Sasuke fight someone more powerful than Kaguya...this is how progression in basic shonen works
For example DBZ
Saiyans < Frieza < Androids < Cell < Buu < Beerus
And in this case we have Kishimoto stating over THREE different canon sources that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are superior to Kaguya
People seem to be under the assumption that Kaguya cannot be surpassed which makes no sense since the series is continuing on beyond her fight and is bound to reveal stronger opponents...that's how shonen works
For example DBZ
Saiyans < Frieza < Androids < Cell < Buu < Beerus
And in this case we have Kishimoto stating over THREE different canon sources that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are superior to Kaguya
People seem to be under the assumption that Kaguya cannot be surpassed which makes no sense since the series is continuing on beyond her fight and is bound to reveal stronger opponents...that's how shonen works
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That doesn't make any sense. If they were stronger than Kaguya, a White Zetsu army would be even more useless than they would be now, so Kaguya making them would be an even bigger waste of time. Even if canon says it, it makes absolutely no sense since they wouldn't be of help to Kaguya.UchihaVision said:
You still haven't presented the proof I asked you of them being stronger than Kaguya, nor have you addressed the issue of Boruto series being the new canon over the movie. You have already try to ignore this twice, and you claiming Boruto series is not canon does not make it so.
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@Lazy, the thing is, if Kaguya was desperate enough to gather utter fodders to help her in the fight against the "threat", it has to mean that the threat is stronger than Kaguya.
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- #47
"nor have you addressed the issue of Boruto series being the new canon over the movie."
This isn't true at all, Kishimoto has never publicly come out to say "This is the main canon" and it all stems down to how we define "canon material"
1. Did Kishimoto write it?
2. Does it not contradict the main storyline?
All 3 of the canon sources so far meet these criteria, it makes absolutely no sense to assume 1 is considered canon and the other 2 aren't just because 1 of them proves my point and another proves yours
This isn't true at all, Kishimoto has never publicly come out to say "This is the main canon" and it all stems down to how we define "canon material"
1. Did Kishimoto write it?
2. Does it not contradict the main storyline?
All 3 of the canon sources so far meet these criteria, it makes absolutely no sense to assume 1 is considered canon and the other 2 aren't just because 1 of them proves my point and another proves yours
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- #48
And for the millionth time that action by Kaguya is being taken out of context
IF SHE COULD HAVE SIMPLY KILLED MOMOSHIKI AND KINSHIKI, THERE WOULD BE NO POINT IN MAKING THE ARMY
That is the point that the author himself is trying to put across, she felt so threatened by kinshiki and momoshiki that she felt that such drastic measures would need to be taken to defeat them, if she truly was soooooooo far above them like the scaling on this site suggests then she could have simply created an ETSB and wiped them out, yet she didn't
IF SHE COULD HAVE SIMPLY KILLED MOMOSHIKI AND KINSHIKI, THERE WOULD BE NO POINT IN MAKING THE ARMY
That is the point that the author himself is trying to put across, she felt so threatened by kinshiki and momoshiki that she felt that such drastic measures would need to be taken to defeat them, if she truly was soooooooo far above them like the scaling on this site suggests then she could have simply created an ETSB and wiped them out, yet she didn't
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IF SHE COULD HAVE SIMPLY KILLED MOMOSHIKI AND KINSHIKI, THERE WOULD BE NO POINT IN MAKING THE ARMY
That is the point that the author himself is trying to put across, she felt so threatened by kinshiki and momoshiki that she felt that such drastic measures would need to be taken to defeat them, if she truly was soooooooo far above them like the scaling on this site suggests then she could have simply created an ETSB and wiped them out, yet she didn't
Again, Kaguya is not the most intelligent person in battle so her making a fodder army to combat ppl she can beat herself is definitely a tactic she would pull. Not to mention, they were only POSSIBLY a threat so for all everyone knows its also possible they were weaker than her. In addition, Kaguya at this time was the Kaguya who was completely selfish in keeping Chakra for the tree. It would make sense she would go to great but uneccessary lengths to keep it from ppl aiming to steal it for themselves, which was Momo and Kinshiki's intent in the first place.
That is the point that the author himself is trying to put across, she felt so threatened by kinshiki and momoshiki that she felt that such drastic measures would need to be taken to defeat them, if she truly was soooooooo far above them like the scaling on this site suggests then she could have simply created an ETSB and wiped them out, yet she didn't
Again, Kaguya is not the most intelligent person in battle so her making a fodder army to combat ppl she can beat herself is definitely a tactic she would pull. Not to mention, they were only POSSIBLY a threat so for all everyone knows its also possible they were weaker than her. In addition, Kaguya at this time was the Kaguya who was completely selfish in keeping Chakra for the tree. It would make sense she would go to great but uneccessary lengths to keep it from ppl aiming to steal it for themselves, which was Momo and Kinshiki's intent in the first place.
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- #52
"her making a fodder army to combat ppl she can beat herself is definitely a tactic she would pull."
Based on what? I don't recall her doing the same to combat her two sons do you?
I don't recall her doing the same for Naruto and Sasuke do you?
Kaguya has literally never done that for anyone else, so what is your presumption based on?
Like i said before, If Kaguya felt that she could have just defeated them in an instant like the scaling on this website suggests, it makes absolutely no sense that she would create an army
The novel says she was scared and couldn't beat them without an army
The movie says she was scared and so created an army to fight them
The manga states that there is a possibility of a threat bigger than Kaguya showing up, the threat IS bigger than kaguya but the possibility of them showing up is....a possibility
I'll say it once more, if Kaguya could have beaten Momoshiki and Kinshiki she would have done so just like how she did with Hamura and Hagoromo and how she did with Sasuke and Naruto
Based on what? I don't recall her doing the same to combat her two sons do you?
I don't recall her doing the same for Naruto and Sasuke do you?
Kaguya has literally never done that for anyone else, so what is your presumption based on?
Like i said before, If Kaguya felt that she could have just defeated them in an instant like the scaling on this website suggests, it makes absolutely no sense that she would create an army
The novel says she was scared and couldn't beat them without an army
The movie says she was scared and so created an army to fight them
The manga states that there is a possibility of a threat bigger than Kaguya showing up, the threat IS bigger than kaguya but the possibility of them showing up is....a possibility
I'll say it once more, if Kaguya could have beaten Momoshiki and Kinshiki she would have done so just like how she did with Hamura and Hagoromo and how she did with Sasuke and Naruto
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Not doing it to her son's is because she was the juubi at that time, a mindless creature
Not doing it to Naruto and Sasuke is either CIS or the fact they are useless against them, like we've been saying.
Who said anything about instant defeat? Kaguya is not that far above them 2 where shed one shot. At least not back then. And again, Kaguya is literally someone who lacks in fighting skills more than anyone else in Naruto. Her making uneccessary moves for this reason and others is justified.
Being scared =/= being weaker all the time. Kaguya was likely scared of them touching the shinju tree instead of killing her.
Not doing it to Naruto and Sasuke is either CIS or the fact they are useless against them, like we've been saying.
Who said anything about instant defeat? Kaguya is not that far above them 2 where shed one shot. At least not back then. And again, Kaguya is literally someone who lacks in fighting skills more than anyone else in Naruto. Her making uneccessary moves for this reason and others is justified.
Being scared =/= being weaker all the time. Kaguya was likely scared of them touching the shinju tree instead of killing her.
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@LlamaGod1411
No, it doesn't necessarily mean they were stronger than her, just that she was scared of them. You can be scared of someone comparable to you in power. The statements above suggest she was scared of them because they were other Otsutsuki coming that were going to take chakra away from her, giving her obsession with getting all chakra back it makes sense just from that angle alone. The statement is decent, but not enough on its own since it comes from a third party as a possibility, not a certainty.
@UchihaVision
1) The main author doesn't even have to write something to declare it as canon, he just has to acknowledge it as part of the official story, which is what's going on with the Boruto series, unless you have a recent statement that the previous version of the movie and the novel are canon over the Boruto series.
2) It does contradict the main storyline since the new Momoshiki storyline is the version seen in the Boruto manga.
The three versions cannot be all canon as you're saying because there are significantly different from one another. However, the Boruto manga version is the most recent version and the one used by the official continuation of the series, so it should take precedence over the outdated versions unless Kishimoto declares it non-canon and picks the old version.
I'm just pointing out your lack of evidence of the novel being canon, so calm down. I'll repeat what I said in the beginning. You haven't proven at all that the novel is canon. The fact that Kishimoto worked on it is not enough, he likely worked in some of the anime fillers and non-canon movies and he created some stuff for the video games, so the involvement of the original author is not an automatic canon seal on a work. Thus, the only evidence you have presented in this thread that has any value is the statements of her fear, which is not enough IMO. As I mentioned, I see them being comparable to her, not definitely stronger since they didn't show anything on the level of her strongest technique.
No, it doesn't necessarily mean they were stronger than her, just that she was scared of them. You can be scared of someone comparable to you in power. The statements above suggest she was scared of them because they were other Otsutsuki coming that were going to take chakra away from her, giving her obsession with getting all chakra back it makes sense just from that angle alone. The statement is decent, but not enough on its own since it comes from a third party as a possibility, not a certainty.
@UchihaVision
1) The main author doesn't even have to write something to declare it as canon, he just has to acknowledge it as part of the official story, which is what's going on with the Boruto series, unless you have a recent statement that the previous version of the movie and the novel are canon over the Boruto series.
2) It does contradict the main storyline since the new Momoshiki storyline is the version seen in the Boruto manga.
The three versions cannot be all canon as you're saying because there are significantly different from one another. However, the Boruto manga version is the most recent version and the one used by the official continuation of the series, so it should take precedence over the outdated versions unless Kishimoto declares it non-canon and picks the old version.
I'm just pointing out your lack of evidence of the novel being canon, so calm down. I'll repeat what I said in the beginning. You haven't proven at all that the novel is canon. The fact that Kishimoto worked on it is not enough, he likely worked in some of the anime fillers and non-canon movies and he created some stuff for the video games, so the involvement of the original author is not an automatic canon seal on a work. Thus, the only evidence you have presented in this thread that has any value is the statements of her fear, which is not enough IMO. As I mentioned, I see them being comparable to her, not definitely stronger since they didn't show anything on the level of her strongest technique.
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- #55
"Who said anything about instant defeat? Kaguya is not that far above them 2 where shed one shot"
Kaguya is Planetary and Momoshiki is moon level
i don't need to calculate it for you to know that the difference is thousands to tens of thousands of times
Kaguya is Planetary and Momoshiki is moon level
i don't need to calculate it for you to know that the difference is thousands to tens of thousands of times
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Kaguya is planet level only with the ETSB though?
I don't think high end moon level and small planet are that far apart from what I remember.
I don't think high end moon level and small planet are that far apart from what I remember.
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@Uchiua
"At least not back then"
You stepped over this. And Kaguya's only 5-B with ETSB anyway
"At least not back then"
You stepped over this. And Kaguya's only 5-B with ETSB anyway
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I'm also against these changes.
It's blatantly clear that Fused Momoshiki is nowhere near as strong as Kaguya, as Naruto and Sasuke were able to defeat him directly rather than having to resort to Chibaku Tensei. The fact that a single Odama Rasengan was enough to kill Momoshiki should really show how much weaker Momoshiki is when compared to Kaguya.
Feats > Statements in this case.
It's blatantly clear that Fused Momoshiki is nowhere near as strong as Kaguya, as Naruto and Sasuke were able to defeat him directly rather than having to resort to Chibaku Tensei. The fact that a single Odama Rasengan was enough to kill Momoshiki should really show how much weaker Momoshiki is when compared to Kaguya.
Feats > Statements in this case.
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Let do a little recap on just Kaguya & Momo.
Kaguya created 6 dimensions—not stars or worlds, but the translation said dimensions— likely via ETSB. These dimensions each contain natural satellites, outerspace and a light source-sun.
Momo said she could also make parallel worlds (to Naruto's own world). Meaning Naruto's entire world either consist of one planet and nothing else or it at least has outerspace, moons, rocks in space and a light source-sun, etc. To think the former is false. To think the latter subsequently means you ought to also accept that Kaguya simply has the capacity to create a parallel world identical to Naruto's world— which means her world has outerspace, with natural satellite, and a light source all exactly like Naruto's own world.
Momo introduced the parallel world talk and created his own which was described identical to Naruto's own world. This means, it also has outerspace, natural satellite, rocks in space, light source, etc. He's apparently described as a God in the novel, game, and manga (not sure about the movie, might have to double check) whom was so dangerous to Kaguya to the extent that she'd enslave an entire planet for chakra (battery) and consume her 2 powerful sons just to be ready for Momo and Kin.
Think about this. If (base) Toneri with Tenseigan can slam the moon on a world to ruin it with utmost ease, and he's unfathomably weaker than Momo, Why does Momo only have moon+?
Though I've observed that some people are vigorously, even at time vehemently, proposing to upgrade the naruto verse to planet+ lvl or so, the implication I get from the source material itself is that they're likely far above the lvl typically proposed.
Kaguya created 6 dimensions—not stars or worlds, but the translation said dimensions— likely via ETSB. These dimensions each contain natural satellites, outerspace and a light source-sun.
Momo said she could also make parallel worlds (to Naruto's own world). Meaning Naruto's entire world either consist of one planet and nothing else or it at least has outerspace, moons, rocks in space and a light source-sun, etc. To think the former is false. To think the latter subsequently means you ought to also accept that Kaguya simply has the capacity to create a parallel world identical to Naruto's world— which means her world has outerspace, with natural satellite, and a light source all exactly like Naruto's own world.
Momo introduced the parallel world talk and created his own which was described identical to Naruto's own world. This means, it also has outerspace, natural satellite, rocks in space, light source, etc. He's apparently described as a God in the novel, game, and manga (not sure about the movie, might have to double check) whom was so dangerous to Kaguya to the extent that she'd enslave an entire planet for chakra (battery) and consume her 2 powerful sons just to be ready for Momo and Kin.
Think about this. If (base) Toneri with Tenseigan can slam the moon on a world to ruin it with utmost ease, and he's unfathomably weaker than Momo, Why does Momo only have moon+?
Though I've observed that some people are vigorously, even at time vehemently, proposing to upgrade the naruto verse to planet+ lvl or so, the implication I get from the source material itself is that they're likely far above the lvl typically proposed.
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