• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Addressing Dragon Ball's Time Power

Messages
867
Reaction score
419

In Nature, for some reason Causality, Fate, Probability, Law and Logic are listed apart of abstract existence? It's just time power being capable of governing those aspects doesn't mean time power itself are those. So I suggest axing most of the AE aspects with the exception of Concept type 1.

And as for Non physical interaction, I think Logic should be removed because it's outdated, the reasoning doesn't align with the current standards.
 
Not to be rude or anything but this is really low quality. I feel like some of this could’ve actually just been discussed with the DBH supporters, typically @Vietthai96, since he’s considered the main DBH supporter. Given his knowledge he likely would’ve given you a clear answer. But aside from that I was present in the thread where the attempt to add logic manipulation as an ability for DBH was downgraded so I guess anything logic related can go. As for AE1, neutral, as I recall that thread had a lot of instances and evidence but as I said formerly, your CRT is low quality and you haven’t made the effort to actually tackle each and every individual scan and argument that was shown. I would have to reread the AE thread and come back to this one to see if your DG holds up. For now I agree with logic being removed. I’m neutral, slightly in disagreement with AE since I agreed before and gave a thorough read up to a certain point and find no issues with it.

On second thoughts logic NPI is something I might be neutral about, IIRC in the same thread I mentioned prior, there was apparently more evidence for logic shenanigans but there was quite a few bickering and derailment that I don’t even think the OP got to fully explain. So Logic NPI might be valid, just not the manipulation or any other aspect. Waiting for Viet’s input.
 
Well i dont know what are other AEs justification, but logic can go since it was already rejected recently
 
I will remove it, i was busy these days so i forgot all the important stuff i need to do (get called to CRTs, fix broken scan link bruhh)

Edit:
In Nature, for some reason Causality, Fate, Probability, Law and Logic are listed apart of abstract existence? It's just time power being capable of governing those aspects doesn't mean time power itself are those. So I suggest axing most of the AE aspects with the exception of Concept type 1.
Except Logic part, which i forgot, this is just bad reasoning, all other stuff is part of Time; that's why Time has those abstractions; Time didn't just govern them, they are part of Time. Time Power is Time itself. Seriously dude you need to read the page first before making a thread, and this is just a low quality CRT ngl
 
Logic stuff should go, yeah. There was a CRT regarding it previously and it got unanimously rejected by all staff except OP iirc.

Neutral on the rest
 
I will remove it, i was busy these days so i forgot all the important stuff i need to do (get called to CRTs, fix broken scan link bruhh)

Edit:

Except Logic part, which i forgot, this is just bad reasoning, all other stuff is part of Time; that's why Time has those abstractions; Time didn't just govern them, they are part of Time. Time Power is Time itself. Seriously dude you need to read the page first before making a thread, and this is just a low quality CRT ngl
Do you mean this scan?
 
it was linked in the AE part, actually both AE and CM parts.


The bolded part is the linked Terminology page
A quick look at the Fate part, the scans just showed about time power capable of manipulating fate. I don't believe it's necessary means fate is apart of time, just manipulating time allows you to manipulate fate so Time has a higher hierarchy than Fate instead.
 
A quick look at the Fate part, the scans just showed about time power capable of manipulating fate. I don't believe it's necessary means fate is apart of time, just manipulating time allows you to manipulate fate so Time has a higher hierarchy than Fate instead.
Did you even read the entire page???, there is another fate section for history first, the second section is just to reinforce the first section
 
Did you even read the entire page???, there is another fate section for history first, the second section is just to reinforce the first section
Conclusion 3 and 4 seems to conflict each other. C3 mentions Time is apart of History as Time can shape History and History is apart of Causality/Fate. But C4 mentions Causality/Fate being a lesser metaphysical aspect than Time.

I'm not sure if things can be apart of each other while one considered to be much inferior.
 
Conclusion 3 and 4 seems to conflict each other. C3 mentions Time is apart of History as Time can shape History and History is apart of Causality/Fate. But C4 mentions Causality/Fate being a lesser metaphysical aspect than Time.

I'm not sure if things can be apart of each other while one considered to be much inferior.
This is actually possible. You can govern something, have it lesser part of you while wholly superior to it. In this case Causality, Fate etc etc are parts of Time but complete essence of Time remains a higher concept to other metaphysical concepts.
 
C3 mentions Time is apart of History
?. What? 😭

thus everything that「History」itself is, is also a part of「Time」
How did you get to the conclusion that Time is part of History???

But C4 mentions Causality/Fate being a lesser metaphysical aspect than Time.
Yeah they are lesser because they are simply parts of Time, not whole of it

I'm not sure if things can be apart of each other while one considered to be much inferior.
????????. It is not a part of each other bro, what??. causality, fate, etc... are parts of Time. Be apart of each other is somehow causality is part of fate and vice versa, that is different
 
?. What? 😭


How did you get to the conclusion that Time is part of History???


Yeah they are lesser because they are simply parts of Time, not whole of it


????????. It is not a part of each other bro, what??. causality, fate, etc... are parts of Time. Be apart of each other is somehow causality is part of fate and vice versa, that is different
I mean the opposite

Honestly causality/fate just seems something being governed by time, rather they being apart of it especially with the conclusion that they are an inferior metaphyiscal aspect. Like interacting with the concept of light doesn't mean you are actually interacting with light as they are separate, not the elemental light being apart of the concept. (In this case, Time Power with Fate/Causality).
 
Also as for Law, I don't think I plan to argue against it as they specifically mentioned Time being Law so only causality/fate I see some issues.
 

In Nature, for some reason Causality, Fate, Probability, Law and Logic are listed apart of abstract existence? It's just time power being capable of governing those aspects doesn't mean time power itself are those. So I suggest axing most of the AE aspects with the exception of Concept type 1.

I hate IMGUR I can’t see any scans so I had to use another method.

So from what I’m getting at the OP has specified initially that he thinks Time merely holds dominion over the metaphysical aspects which are present on the terminology page. OP hasn’t even provided any actual combating of why he believes that these aspects don’t essentially act as puzzles which piece Time.
Conclusion 3 and 4 seems to conflict each other. C3 mentions Time is apart of History as Time can shape History and History is apart of Causality/Fate. But C4 mentions Causality/Fate being a lesser metaphysical aspect than Time.

I'm not sure if things can be apart of each other while one considered to be much inferior.
That’s why I recommend you reach out to supporters instead of making this downgrade thread. It would’ve been easier to consult Vietthai or post your question in either, the Dragon Ball Game’s discussion thread or the All Purpose Dragon Ball thread. Someone or a few people would’ve been happy to help you or guide you without any issues. I would understand if you didn’t want to consult Vietthai due to response times varying but that to me would have been all the more reason to reach out to people who are most accessible and approachable.

There’s no conflicting here. To be honest, I haven’t come across standards in which lesser metaphysical aspects can’t act as individual building blocks where when connected creates a more predominant or superior metaphysical aspect. This is why indexing exists. I could understand if we were referencing a verse that has no extrapolation or detailing on this matter but that isn’t the case here. This may be semantics but it actually fits with what the topic of discussion is about. Over here, the Elder Kai mentions how when the egg hatches it marks the existence of a whole new timeline. Even calling it “magnificent.” In this context it’s not even all that surprising since it has unique features of possessing Time energy despite being in egg form or a dormant state. Time power, which just like time scrolls are a manifestation of Time which also has qualities of shaping history and creating timelines. Timeline/History/Space-Time are all synonymous. This wouldn’t be possible if Time only took on the role of being a higher authority compared to history.

We wouldn’t even assume by default that governance over lesser aspects indicates AE1, the same way we wouldn’t give Super Concepts the abilities of standardised Concepts which has control over lesser aspects such as the Mind.

Causality or in simple translation, a flow of events. What is meant by flow of events? A line of event(s) plural, meaning more than one instance of timeline(s). Fu who is perceived as reliable even gives his brief explanation of events. Here are two translations;

“History is a flow of events that are connected to each other”​
“History is a series of (different) events that come together to form a flow.”​
Both translations confirm the usage of “history” which also confirms there is no separation or contradiction between Time/History (Space-Time, Timelines)/Events (Causality). Without history, there’s no flow of events or connection. There’s also no birth of a timeline from the process of TokiToki hatching from their egg since it lacks the main components to form a timeline. We also know that causality/events isn’t some made up aspect or impotent due to the existence of parallel quests. “Parallel” referring to alternate timelines, those quests being events, instances or even storylines if you will.

With fate we already have two scans. One scan being very blatant with saying TokiToki controls fate. The other with SKOT Chronoa having an ability called manipulated fate, keep in mind Supreme Kai’s Of Time utilise Time Power, we have already established that Time Power is manifested from Time so it is apart of Time. If I’m not wrong it was due to fate and Time itself that Demigra was able to hold the position of a SKOT but i could be wrong. Luck and possibilities, possibilities being a set of timelines with a set amount of histories which encompass events. Each history holding different events, luck acting as somewhat of a catalyst which boosts or is vital for progression and endpoints of said timelines. History is shaped by luck and time both of which are abstract and considered metaphysical aspects. They are both a big component when it comes to progressing, finalising and bringing into existence.

In conclusion I disagree with the thread. I think Time and TokiToki itself have enough evidence on being AE1. It also helps when there’s statements of TokiToki being born with Time energy, Time energy being a manifestation of Time just like the time scrolls, Time governing and embodying a large quantity of aspects mentioned formerly and TokiToki being the sole existence for all of creation. When you theoretically kill TokiToki you cease the existence of everything that contributes to Time. Plus if I’m not wrong, TokiToki being killed would only lead to another TokiToki going through the whole process of being born with Time energy and eventually hatching, causing the existence of a fresh timeline. He’s effectively immortal which is one of the requirements for AE1 shown on the AE page.

I hate VBW on mobile my original piece was a lot longer and had more scans but it got deleted since I tabbed out 😔.
 
Also as for Law, I don't think I plan to argue against it as they specifically mentioned Time being Law so only causality/fate I see some issues.
I can understand the argument about that A govern B doesn't mean A is B or B is A, the problem isn't it. Time isn't simply governs fate and causality like fate & causality was a separate thing from Time, fate and causality are parts of Time as they are emerged from it. Your argument only work if Fate and Causality did not emerged from Time, and they were a separated thing
 
Back
Top