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Additions for Hades (Saint Seiya)
- Thread starter ABoogieYesSir
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Higher-Dimensional Existence can be argued against I guess.
Gods do create their own realms which have 4 dimensions. They manipulate their realms too. So higher-dimensional manipulation isn't a problem.
They're stated to literally manipulate fate so you can't just call that interfering with humans. There was no indication that it was only interfering with mortals it was just stated that gods manipulate fate.
Actually yes the physics manipulation would be telekinisis. How about in his realms though?
Ichor doesn't grant resistence it just passively rewrites causality that the universe was enforcing. First it tried to erase him then it was forcing Shun to become a Spectre but Ichor rewrote that.
Gods do create their own realms which have 4 dimensions. They manipulate their realms too. So higher-dimensional manipulation isn't a problem.
They're stated to literally manipulate fate so you can't just call that interfering with humans. There was no indication that it was only interfering with mortals it was just stated that gods manipulate fate.
Actually yes the physics manipulation would be telekinisis. How about in his realms though?
Ichor doesn't grant resistence it just passively rewrites causality that the universe was enforcing. First it tried to erase him then it was forcing Shun to become a Spectre but Ichor rewrote that.
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@Ant
I'll call Ultima to come here, he is listed on supportes of the verse.
@Emperor
They cannot, they do not manipulate fate as you think, in no time is said this in a direct way, you can draw conclusions based on their interpretation, but the reality is that points plotted the whole plot is to the heroes and villains in episode G, and even in Lost Canvas, Kairos does not manipulate the same and when the plans came out of what he expected, even though he was the one who created that timeline, he still lost and was sealed.
If ikhor rewrite the cause and effect, do you really think that Seiya would no longer have been completely healed of the sword of hades or shura would not be able to open the passage to the underworld in the fight against chakravartim? Shura was not healed of the cause and effect of the nature of that universe, seiya is not free from the effect of the curse of hades, enter several other motives, from afar ikhor will never rewrite cause and effect.
I'll call Ultima to come here, he is listed on supportes of the verse.
@Emperor
They cannot, they do not manipulate fate as you think, in no time is said this in a direct way, you can draw conclusions based on their interpretation, but the reality is that points plotted the whole plot is to the heroes and villains in episode G, and even in Lost Canvas, Kairos does not manipulate the same and when the plans came out of what he expected, even though he was the one who created that timeline, he still lost and was sealed.
If ikhor rewrite the cause and effect, do you really think that Seiya would no longer have been completely healed of the sword of hades or shura would not be able to open the passage to the underworld in the fight against chakravartim? Shura was not healed of the cause and effect of the nature of that universe, seiya is not free from the effect of the curse of hades, enter several other motives, from afar ikhor will never rewrite cause and effect.
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You're adding the interpretation but it's never indicated to be that. It's just stated he can manipulate fate and that's it. It's likely that the only reason they lose is because of miracles.
[1]
In that instance it did rewrite causality. In those other instances that would just mean other gods can enforce things that other gods cannot change which would make sense.
It can also be called "Divine Will" of the Gods. Shura shouldn't exist in that timeline. The universe tries to erase him and he is brought back via Ichor, it ties him to the underworld and he becomes a Spectre but that is also rewritten.
[2]
[1]
In that instance it did rewrite causality. In those other instances that would just mean other gods can enforce things that other gods cannot change which would make sense.
It can also be called "Divine Will" of the Gods. Shura shouldn't exist in that timeline. The universe tries to erase him and he is brought back via Ichor, it ties him to the underworld and he becomes a Spectre but that is also rewritten.
[2]
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@Emperor
His argument is flawed for the following reasons: You have not shown me a direct proof for a closed conclusion to the manipulation of the fate of the gods, all of which I have seen, interpretive from the gods.
The said miracles that you support in your argument, in the episode g assassin already have been unmasked, being a law of that universe that any god is not absolutely superior to a Human, but according to them in other yes, that is, miracles is nothing more is that equals a god or being superior to him, and in this still does not show that miracles is to resist the said fate imposed by them, but to overcome them or equalize.
If Shura did not exist on that timeline, he would not be erased but pulled into nothingness, and he already existed there, only that in that reality he is already dead, and that pulls him into the underworld, this fact shows directly that ikhor does not rewrites causality but protects the said person from it temporarily. And the so-called divine will, it may simply be Athena helping him as far as her can, as giving him ikhor and protecting him temporarily, how you can prove that is a god manipulating his fate?
His argument is flawed for the following reasons: You have not shown me a direct proof for a closed conclusion to the manipulation of the fate of the gods, all of which I have seen, interpretive from the gods.
The said miracles that you support in your argument, in the episode g assassin already have been unmasked, being a law of that universe that any god is not absolutely superior to a Human, but according to them in other yes, that is, miracles is nothing more is that equals a god or being superior to him, and in this still does not show that miracles is to resist the said fate imposed by them, but to overcome them or equalize.
If Shura did not exist on that timeline, he would not be erased but pulled into nothingness, and he already existed there, only that in that reality he is already dead, and that pulls him into the underworld, this fact shows directly that ikhor does not rewrites causality but protects the said person from it temporarily. And the so-called divine will, it may simply be Athena helping him as far as her can, as giving him ikhor and protecting him temporarily, how you can prove that is a god manipulating his fate?
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The evidence is that they already stated they do manipulate fate. You're just adding an interpretation to it which I'm saying is just downplaying. It's never indicated to be what you're suggesting.
Miracles are what allows mortals to have chances in defeating gods. Allowing them to surpass the gods. It's like a plot device for the protagonists when there is no hope of victory. In your own scan it say they can overcome the gods with it. Which would apply to fate manipulation.
He came in through another dimension into that timeline where he was already dead. So there were 2 histories for Shura and his parralell self didn't have a future which was that paradox
The world itself was rejecting his existence and it attempted to "elimate", erase them from existing in that time. Then he came back into existence and turned into a Spectre. Hades' realm doesn't exist inside the timeline so it makes sense.
Athena came and rewrote this which was enforced by the world. So yes it is manipulating causality.
Miracles are what allows mortals to have chances in defeating gods. Allowing them to surpass the gods. It's like a plot device for the protagonists when there is no hope of victory. In your own scan it say they can overcome the gods with it. Which would apply to fate manipulation.
He came in through another dimension into that timeline where he was already dead. So there were 2 histories for Shura and his parralell self didn't have a future which was that paradox
The world itself was rejecting his existence and it attempted to "elimate", erase them from existing in that time. Then he came back into existence and turned into a Spectre. Hades' realm doesn't exist inside the timeline so it makes sense.
Athena came and rewrote this which was enforced by the world. So yes it is manipulating causality.
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There's also these two threads.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1721397
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1763566
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1721397
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1763566
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What evidence? There are none, you did not show any that prove it. The gods always leave these quotations in an interpretive way never directly and literally, if you can not prove what I'm asking for, the wrong one here is you.
Miracles is not a skill is a condition. A miracle is a condition of equating to power or overcoming a god, and we are not talking about the fate imposed by them, but rather energy and combat, is not something exclusive of the protagonist, in the episode g assassin any human can do this and it's not a "plot device" as you say.
There is no two history of shuras, only one that the world considers to be dead, has no paradox, is simply cause and effect, if there is a living Shura the former cause will be applied and the world recognizes it as wrong soon its effect is return to death.
The world is not trying to erase it, if it proves it, it is made clear that his soul walks toward the underworld and not non-existence. And the fact that he becomes a specter is specifically because his soul has fallen into the underworld, why in the fight against chakravartim, how do you think he got the sword from the underworld? If you can prove to me that the Hades Realm exist in another timeline, I would be grateful.
Athena protected him from the cause and effect of the nature of the world, nothing more, nothing less.
Miracles is not a skill is a condition. A miracle is a condition of equating to power or overcoming a god, and we are not talking about the fate imposed by them, but rather energy and combat, is not something exclusive of the protagonist, in the episode g assassin any human can do this and it's not a "plot device" as you say.
There is no two history of shuras, only one that the world considers to be dead, has no paradox, is simply cause and effect, if there is a living Shura the former cause will be applied and the world recognizes it as wrong soon its effect is return to death.
The world is not trying to erase it, if it proves it, it is made clear that his soul walks toward the underworld and not non-existence. And the fact that he becomes a specter is specifically because his soul has fallen into the underworld, why in the fight against chakravartim, how do you think he got the sword from the underworld? If you can prove to me that the Hades Realm exist in another timeline, I would be grateful.
Athena protected him from the cause and effect of the nature of the world, nothing more, nothing less.
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As in the very scan on which you rely, pontos out that the power to overcome destinies imposed by the gods already "predetermined", but the power is called miracle and on the next page, this miracle is simply the increase of the cosmos, that is the condition of overcoming the said law that humans are not superior or equal to the gods, and that by equating the cosmos or surpassing them this is called miracle.
Here we see shura citing the fate of humans, which by the way closely resembles what Buddhism speaks about human life, which is full of suffering, gain, loss and so on. Human life is limited, and it is only with the miracle that it can reach the level of a god or surpass it, but that does not mean that it makes them equal in existence but their energies make them capable of fighting against the gods.
It is a predetermined fate that the gods are naturally superior to humans, as the aiolos themselve quote; however, when the 5 bronze boys faced zeus, they did so with their cosmos, and nothing more, they did not deny the law/fate predetermined by gods, since that law/fate doesn't exist in that universe. It is a matter of nature that humans are inferior to the gods, and a logical sense imposed by the gods that this too is a truth. But it is not a law, nor a fate that is simply annulled with their event equaled.
In the end, miracle is nothing more than equal your energy/cosmos/power to can fight against a god.
Here we see shura citing the fate of humans, which by the way closely resembles what Buddhism speaks about human life, which is full of suffering, gain, loss and so on. Human life is limited, and it is only with the miracle that it can reach the level of a god or surpass it, but that does not mean that it makes them equal in existence but their energies make them capable of fighting against the gods.
It is a predetermined fate that the gods are naturally superior to humans, as the aiolos themselve quote; however, when the 5 bronze boys faced zeus, they did so with their cosmos, and nothing more, they did not deny the law/fate predetermined by gods, since that law/fate doesn't exist in that universe. It is a matter of nature that humans are inferior to the gods, and a logical sense imposed by the gods that this too is a truth. But it is not a law, nor a fate that is simply annulled with their event equaled.
In the end, miracle is nothing more than equal your energy/cosmos/power to can fight against a god.
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Well I assumed you already knew of the statements. The threads I posted have evidence. They state directly manipulating fate and destiny. You're just interpreting that as something else without evidence yourself.
Miracles allow them to overcome, surpass Gods yes. It isn't just combat, it also includes their abilities too which would include fate manipulation. It's also when they have no hope of winning the battle and somehow they surpass said God and beat him or her. Any human can do it but most commonly the protagonists do it to win against the God they're fighting or give them a very good chance in beating the God. Yes it is a plot device. It is used to finish and push forward the narrative where the human overcomes what they're facing.
When Shura enters the timeline. The original Shura is already dead so he has no future alive in the timeline. That is one history of Shura. When another Shura comes into the timeline he has no past and only exists in the present and future of the timeline and two Shura's exist one that has existed in the past and is dead in the future and now one that is alive in the present when original Shura is dead in the present. That is the paradox. He should be dead but is somehow alive when in actual fact it is a Shura from an alternate universe.
You could even say he doesn't exist in the future because in this scna both the future and past reject him. The universe tries to erase him but fails. https://i.imgur.com/TXGoHY1.jpg
The universe then tries to "devour" and "eliminate" him. It's stated they do in the scans shown.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480790656571146240/556797510879019008/unknown.png
Since it cannot erase him the universe then turns him into a Spectre instead. https://i.imgur.com/5p7iCuk.jpg
Athena then reverses all of this with her Ichor and reverses causality and grants him divine protection.
https://media.discordapp.net/attach...635778506753/unknown.png?width=213&height=301
Even afterwards the World continues to reject him which is constantly reversed by Athena's Ichor. https://media.discordapp.net/attach...872647630859/unknown.png?width=205&height=300
Here are Hades' worlds being outside the timeline: https://imgur.com/a/dvy2lZf
Miracles allow them to overcome, surpass Gods yes. It isn't just combat, it also includes their abilities too which would include fate manipulation. It's also when they have no hope of winning the battle and somehow they surpass said God and beat him or her. Any human can do it but most commonly the protagonists do it to win against the God they're fighting or give them a very good chance in beating the God. Yes it is a plot device. It is used to finish and push forward the narrative where the human overcomes what they're facing.
When Shura enters the timeline. The original Shura is already dead so he has no future alive in the timeline. That is one history of Shura. When another Shura comes into the timeline he has no past and only exists in the present and future of the timeline and two Shura's exist one that has existed in the past and is dead in the future and now one that is alive in the present when original Shura is dead in the present. That is the paradox. He should be dead but is somehow alive when in actual fact it is a Shura from an alternate universe.
You could even say he doesn't exist in the future because in this scna both the future and past reject him. The universe tries to erase him but fails. https://i.imgur.com/TXGoHY1.jpg
The universe then tries to "devour" and "eliminate" him. It's stated they do in the scans shown.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480790656571146240/556797510879019008/unknown.png
Since it cannot erase him the universe then turns him into a Spectre instead. https://i.imgur.com/5p7iCuk.jpg
Athena then reverses all of this with her Ichor and reverses causality and grants him divine protection.
https://media.discordapp.net/attach...635778506753/unknown.png?width=213&height=301
Even afterwards the World continues to reject him which is constantly reversed by Athena's Ichor. https://media.discordapp.net/attach...872647630859/unknown.png?width=205&height=300
Here are Hades' worlds being outside the timeline: https://imgur.com/a/dvy2lZf
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In the thread does not have, and if it speaks of the context of the scans that you assume that proves what you speak, then I have already explained above them. It is you who have to prove directly, not in an interpretive way, what you think is one thing in fact is another, I am interpreting why you are not able to prove me directly. And also this is burden of proof, it is you who have to prove what supports your argument and the thread and not me.
Its destiny is nothing more than a natural law, and even if it were imposed by the gods, I have already explained why it is not what you think.
The world recognizes the two shuras as the same, since one is dead is the natural law that if two exist, the two are dead, since the original has a past, and the world recognizes the other shura as equal, the cause of the shura being dead is what causes the effect of the current shura being pulled into the underworld.
Athena did not guarantee him his protection, later he still fell into underworld, and thanks so he got his new sword, but as he fell he had no return without outside help, and every time he became a spectre, death being the previous case because the world returned its memories and state to its self of the past when his soul fell and he was a spectre.
So no, athena does not always guarantee your protection as you claim, Shura only becomes spectre when it is close to death or willfully, and in the former case because the world has returned it to its old self.
Its destiny is nothing more than a natural law, and even if it were imposed by the gods, I have already explained why it is not what you think.
The world recognizes the two shuras as the same, since one is dead is the natural law that if two exist, the two are dead, since the original has a past, and the world recognizes the other shura as equal, the cause of the shura being dead is what causes the effect of the current shura being pulled into the underworld.
Athena did not guarantee him his protection, later he still fell into underworld, and thanks so he got his new sword, but as he fell he had no return without outside help, and every time he became a spectre, death being the previous case because the world returned its memories and state to its self of the past when his soul fell and he was a spectre.
So no, athena does not always guarantee your protection as you claim, Shura only becomes spectre when it is close to death or willfully, and in the former case because the world has returned it to its old self.
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I do not see any errors of interpretation, because the scans describe that the gods exist in a different dimension compared to the mortals, and this explains why their souls are difficult to destroy for a Saint in comparison with a human soul.
This is the author's description of the power or ability of the characters (in the words of Oneiros), is similar to the other descriptions of the characters about their abilities or powers.
Kurumada Suikoden:
Mitología.
La Historia Divina que construyó al mundo.
Épicas, eternas, y brillantes epopeyas.
Rodeadas de la luz dorada.
Cuyos reflejantes colores.
Nunca se descoloran bajo un juramento.
Historias que corren en forma cíclica.
Son los escritos divinos de los jóvenes que desafiaron la prisión de los Dioses.
¡Los escritos divinos que se rompen!.
Recora: Una... mas
Recora: La historia escrita por los dioses...
Recora: Una de las crónicas absolutas...
Recora: Un capitulo mas...
Recora: ┬┐Alguien volvió a reescribir la novela de los dioses?. Imposible que se trate de alg├║n humano.
And it must be added that Keres is the goddess of destiny in this universe, and she is a servant of a god like Hades.
This is the author's description of the power or ability of the characters (in the words of Oneiros), is similar to the other descriptions of the characters about their abilities or powers.
Error, a miracle in the universe of Kurumada is the power to change the destiny written by the gods, the power that allows humans to achieve the impossible (changing their destiny and history) and defeat a god. Even in Kurumada Suikoden, the protagonists are judged by changing the destiny written by the gods in their universes.Archaron said:
Kurumada Suikoden:
Mitología.
La Historia Divina que construyó al mundo.
Épicas, eternas, y brillantes epopeyas.
Rodeadas de la luz dorada.
Cuyos reflejantes colores.
Nunca se descoloran bajo un juramento.
Historias que corren en forma cíclica.
Son los escritos divinos de los jóvenes que desafiaron la prisión de los Dioses.
¡Los escritos divinos que se rompen!.
Recora: Una... mas
Recora: La historia escrita por los dioses...
Recora: Una de las crónicas absolutas...
Recora: Un capitulo mas...
Recora: ┬┐Alguien volvió a reescribir la novela de los dioses?. Imposible que se trate de alg├║n humano.
This is correct.EmperorRorepme said:
And it must be added that Keres is the goddess of destiny in this universe, and she is a servant of a god like Hades.
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You should still ask any staff members listed in the Saint Seiya verse page to give input here, if you want something to happen.
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I think it would be better to ask Matthew what he thinks about it.
ABoogieYesSir
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Anyone bringing Matt here?
ABoogieYesSir
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Most of this seems okay.
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May i ask which ones we are accepting/seem okay???
ABoogieYesSir
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Same
ABoogieYesSir
They/Them- 6,164
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Bump
ABoogieYesSir
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Higher-Dimensional Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Durability Negation, Probability Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation I'm not fine with. Because they're either too speculative or not performed by Hades and some of them seem more related to abilities that specific characters have, such as affecting dreams or shooting lightning, so it can't scale.
Everything else is fine.
Everything else is fine.
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The electricity manipulation isn't a manipulation, but a resistance to it. Shun's chains emmit 10,000 volts of electricity. in god cloth is could he higher, or same.
The Reactive evolution/nothing works twice, might apply to God's with host bodies whom were saints, couldn't it? Such as Shun-Hades, Saturn-Subaru, Abzu-Kouga??? They possessed saints, unless they somehow lose that ability???
Probability manipulation is tied to miracles which Saints do. Miracles are the ability to make the impossible possibile. There us some statements saying "only gods should perform miracles." But that's all for scaling of it.....
Edit: durability negation for micro-quantic destruction and soul destruction?????
Edit2: why does Athena have durability negation????
The Reactive evolution/nothing works twice, might apply to God's with host bodies whom were saints, couldn't it? Such as Shun-Hades, Saturn-Subaru, Abzu-Kouga??? They possessed saints, unless they somehow lose that ability???
Probability manipulation is tied to miracles which Saints do. Miracles are the ability to make the impossible possibile. There us some statements saying "only gods should perform miracles." But that's all for scaling of it.....
Edit: durability negation for micro-quantic destruction and soul destruction?????
Edit2: why does Athena have durability negation????
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I can agree with that. Abzu was the only one shown to use the Pegasus Ryu Sen Ken.
ABoogieYesSir
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Hmm
ABoogieYesSir
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Yes we are finish here.
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The acausality type isn't specified
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Nor his Abstract Existence or Conceptual Manipulation which should revise from a CRT where it is a key topic. None of these were in the OP.ZacharyGrossman273 said:
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