Adam Connover and similar profiles

[Antvasima]

Given that this is a real person, that the show first originated on YouTube, and it is a borderline joke character, it seems like a double-standard to allow it to remain in this wiki.

I think that it is better to move it to Joke Battles instead.

Here is our rule about the topic:

"Do not create any joke profiles, as they do not fit into our tiering system. Also avoid creating profiles for fan characters, advertisement characters, YouTube personalities, music videos, memes, and the like. If you wish to create such profiles, feel free to do so in the Joke Battles wiki instead."

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Editing_Rules

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am neutral to leaning with Antvasima on the subject.

While Adam Conover's superpowers, and his supporting characters are indeed fictional, the show itself bears little continuity or internal logic, is 100% aware that it's a fake TV Series and that his powers are CG.

Adam himself is a real person, though the character of Adam Conover is the persona he uses in his career as a comedian, be it on TV, youtube, theater or stand-up comedy.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's not really that different from the Ship of the Imagination profile. Or other educational ones. And it's more like a charicature of the real person. Similar to Jackie Chan in the JCA tv show. Just not animated. And while yes, the show did originate on YT, it's not there anymore. Taking off the profile would be like taking off the stuff for indie games. If anything, they're less official than Adam. Or RWBY because it also started online. Not to mention that the actual show follows some sort of a plot, and all of his powers are canon and actually mentioned in the show. Which is even better than stuff that we have for toonforce. Also, we have real people on here. We have Bruce Lee and Jean Claude Van Damme. And a ton of RL animals.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not trying to upset you or anything of the sort.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I don't agree with deleting the page myself. Adam is a fictionalized incarnation of a real person (albeit, one acted out by the actual person), so it's not exactly the same as just using a YouTube personality like The Nerd or Nostalgia Critic.

As long as we use feats strictly from the TV show and not the YouTube series, I personally see no harm in keeping it.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I don't agree with deleting the page myself. Adam is a fictionalized incarnation of a real person (albeit, one acted out by the actual person), so it's not exactly the same as just using a YouTube personality like The Nerd or Nostalgia Critic.

As long as we use feats strictly from the TV show and not the YouTube series, I personally see no harm in keeping it.

I agree with you but thats still a double standard since we dont allow the Angry Video Game Nerd who has both Video Games and Movies based on him nor do we allow profiles based on the games and movies alone for him because the Nerd himself originated on Youtube.

As for where i stand on the subject as a whole, I really dont mind if we have them or not but it frustrates me because we have no clear rule about this, just look at RWBY, when I asked why we allow it here the main answer I got was, its animated.

 

[Promestein]

If we don't allow AVGN, we shouldn't allow Adam. I'm on Matt's side, I guess.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Difference between AVGN and Adam is that the latter was picked up by a big time TV studio.

 

[Promestein]

And AVGN has movies and games.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

All are B movies and indie games iirc.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, Bowser and Freddy Krueger were both tv personalities at one point in time (albeit well after their debut). Doesn't make them less legitimate.

And while this may be a bit controversial, and I truly don't mean to offend or break any rules by stating this (hopefully I'm not. I'm not trying to change the tiering system or anything), but I do believe choosing profiles that we allow is a bit skewed. We nitpick which author avatars are legit or not, and we exclude things like this when we just had a big discussion about allowing normal humans on here just because they're fictional, and we have profiles for characters only a single person has heard of. This is a character statistics wiki, and profiles like Adam are abiding by that without offending anyone.

 

[Ryukama]

Adam Conover has actual feats and powers to distinguish him by, while he has the same name as the actor who portrays him, Adam Conover is a fictional character. And he's in a a big budget television series produced by a team of professionals. Not some indie game/small film.

Adam is not particually difficult to rate statwise difficult, despite the name he's indeed a fictional character and is featured within a notable and major media source. He's much more similar to to RWBY than any YouTube personality.

I agree that there should be standards for profiles and to not just accept anything. But I don't believe we should start getting too strict and forbid people for such minor reasons honestly.

 

[RadicalMrR]

@Ryu But wouldnt that set a bad example?(Again not really against the idea just sorta regurgitating what I've been told)

Also the Annoying Orange, Fred and Grace Helbig(?) had/have TV shows.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They're all 10-B to 10-C with literally no abilities. Actually, of all of them, AO could technically get a profile, believe it or not. Not saying he should, but he does fall under our guidelines.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He shouldn't either way.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

I'm neutral to making a decision on this subject.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with you but thats still a double standard since we dont allow the Angry Video Game Nerd who has both Video Games and Movies based on him nor do we allow profiles based on the games and movies alone for him because the Nerd himself originated on Youtube.

As for where i stand on the subject as a whole, I really dont mind if we have them or not but it frustrates me because we have no clear rule about this, just look at RWBY, when I asked why we allow it here the main answer I got was, its animated.

As I mentioned, here is our rule:

"Do not create any joke profiles, as they do not fit into our tiering system. Also avoid creating profiles for fan characters, advertisement characters, YouTube personalities, music videos, memes, and the like. If you wish to create such profiles, feel free to do so in the Joke Battles wiki instead."

RWBY should be fine, given that, as far as I have understood, it is notable/popular, and has a coherent storyline.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, as Ryukama mentioned, we need some standards, and cannot accept anything.

In addition, keeping this profile opens up a slippery slope of constant complaints for allowing other YouTube personalities without a storyline, which opens up for complaints for allowing other types of characters that we do not allow, and so onwards.

I very strongly disagree with keeping it, and any other profiles like it, in this particular wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

We could, however, make an clarification to our rules about that characters need to be both popular, and originate within a coherent storyline, in order to qualify.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think the problem arrives from making characters who have little internal continuity, and exist mostly as memes / jokes, and mashing it all together.

The Angry Videogame Nerd and Nostalgia Critic are characters, yes, but they are gags with little internal consistency and continuity. Their review shows do not qualify as being series in the way a TV Show might. Adam Conover is a stretch, but if we are keeping a profile solely for his TV Series, not counting youtube shorts, livestreams and live theater presentations / stand-ups, it should be okay.

As for AVGN, he did make a movie and has two official games, but he is even more of a stretch than Adam. He is impossible to be viewed as legit from any angle and properly ranked.

Though if you took his feats at face value he'd be Low 1-C

RWBY has nothing to do with this discussion. It's a cartoon like any other, it's just released for free on Youtube. It's so succesful it's now has an official movie, videogame and manga prequel.

 

[Ryukama]

Well Adam Ruins Everthing, while sometimes breaking the 4th wall, is set up as a fictional continuity. And Adam Conover isn't a YouTube personality necessarily, rather a television character based off a webseries.

I personally do not see why we should take down this profile that doesn't really violate the listed rules here, at least not to the extent other things we'll firmly never take down have, was a very popular page on this site with no controversy until one brief mention by a user. With all due respect, while a line needs to be crossed, sometimes our standards regarding this sort of thing are inconsistant and contradicted.

However ultimately it's your guys' final decision and you can do as you wish.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Ryu.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I agree with what both Ryu and TRCH have proposed.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Ant. Adam Ruins Everything does have a kinda normal storyline. There's several episodes leading up to the wedding of Murph and Emily. And Adam is still coping with the loss of the woman he loved. Also deals with serious topics.

Also, having profiles that only originate within a coherent storyline makes us, no offense, look more anime exclusive, considering I can't think of many cartoons that have consistent storylines. Legitimately only ones I can think of are TMNT, Danny Phantom, the recent Cartoon Network shows (AT, RS, and SU), and Avatar

 

[Antvasima]

It does not have anything resembling a storyline, and is based on a real life actor with some special effects thrown in. It is the very definition of profiles that should not be allowed, due to opening for criticism of not allowing all memes, advertisement characters, and YouTube personalities.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If you truly want it gone, I won't attempt to stop you, Ant. I'll support the decisions you make.

There is absolutely no sarcasm in that whatsoever. I truly mean that.

 

[Antvasima]

We could, however, clarify our rules somewhat.

Is it enough to simply state "Characters need to be both notable/popular, and originate within a coherent storyline, in order to qualify", or do we need to be more elaborate?

 

[Ryukama]

Adam Ruins Everything like Cal said does have continuity and storyline events.

Also Adam is certainly not an advertisement character or meme, and can only somewhat be argued to be a YouTube personality, when really he's more of a television character from a show based off a webseries.

Along with that fact that a series not having storylines or having fictional characters based on real life people never stopping us from allowing them before, but again if you want the profile gone it's your choice.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think I can help with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps "coherent storyline", implying consistent continuity, is the wrong wording, but all that I mean are characters that actually have stories. This includes Popeye and Bugs Bunny, even though they have no internal continuity between them. It is the completely storyless characters that seem to go completely against the entire point of this wiki.

 

[RadicalMrR]

So is stuff like the annoying Orange ok?

Also isnt any series released online considered a "webseries"?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Do not create any joke profiles, as they do not fit into our tiering system. Also avoid creating profiles for fan characters, advertisement characters, YouTube personalities, music videos, memes, etc. If you wish to create such profiles, feel free to do so in the Joke Battles wiki instead.

Ex: The Angry Videogame Nerd, Nostalgia Critic, Old Spice Terry Crews, Filthy Frank, Pepe the Frog, or the protagonist from your Fanfiction.

Please note that characters from works that are humorous and self-aware in nature, often breaking the 4th Wall and nodding at the audience are not the same thing as Meme characters. If the series has an established official media that can be used and analysed, and a narrative mostly grounded in itself, it can be used."

Sounds good?

 

[Antvasima]

Again, if we do not wish to constantly field off demands for more characters from advertisements, memes, music videos, and other characters without a story, I think that these types of profiles are dangerous for the integrity of our system.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If the demand goes against our rules, we don't need to make a discussion thread out of it. A simple negation, and a link to our rules would suffice.

 

[Ryukama]

Please note that characters from works that are humorous and self-aware in nature, often breaking the 4th Wall and nodding at the audience are not the same thing as Meme characters. If the series has an established official media that can be used and analysed, and a narrative mostly grounded in itself, it can be used."

This would apply for Adam Conover. He has an offical Time Warner television series, he has a plethora of canon feats and powers that can be used to analyze, he's self-aware and breaks the forth wall but isn't a meme, and like Cal said the series does have storylines, continuities and events in some episodes relating to others.

I still find very little actually wrong with his profile, but there's really nothing I can do if others would prefer his page to be gone and people's decision. So I guess I'll be dropping this from now.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

No. My apologies, but I think that if we give the rules too great exceptions, we open up for loose interpretations, complaints, and the slippery slope domino effect option again. We need strict clear guidelines in this case. Help with adding to the rule about needing actual storylines and notability in combination would be appreciated, however.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ryu

I am in agreement with Adam Conover, against the likes of The Nerd, Old Spice, That Guy with the Glasses and Michael Jackson (?)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ant

No disrespect, but Adam Conover within the strict bounds of his show is not any different than Deadpool. He is simply a character who knows 100% that he is fictional and that he is inside a fake TV Show (Or in Wade's case, a comicbook). But of course, even Adam Conover realizing that and breaking the 4th Wall is fictional, so there is not real problem here.

This is nothing new in fiction

The problem comes from memetic characters, characters that have 0 internal logic or storyline, and whose creators just do absolutely whatever they want with, or who don't even have creators.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Anyway, if anyone would be willing to help me with the rule revision / addition, I would appreciate.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ryukama

The problem is that as a bureaucrat, I have to think in terms of, not what is wrong with a particular profile in itself, but what effect it will have on the members of this wiki.

My experience is that they will inevitably use any wiggle room to make increasingly extreme demands. It is much better to simply have a strict border in place from the start.