Ackermans should not scale to Titans

[Verethragna]

I was going to make a revision thread about it few months ago with my old account I lost but here it goes

Currently, Ackermans like Levi, Mikasa, and Kenny are all 8-C for a vague statement about them being as "As strong as a Titan". There are few things wrong with this.

Firstly, Titan AP and durability are very inconsistent;

In the scans above, Eren is shown to easily kill a pure Titan in this first transformation. He can finish of most if not all Pure Titans very easily, but his own body also takes damage, as in second image his hand is blown away as a result of his own punch. Meaning his durablity is not as high as his AP. Even more, Eren still takes damage from Pure Titans and can get devoured by them. Now in this wiki I'm sure you would not take damage from someone you can nearly oneshot if your durability is as high as your AP. I think Ackermans or any other human scaling to Titans by damaging them is wrong due to how inconsistent Titan durability is

There is more;

In the scans above, Mikasa ambushes Bertolt from behind, who, despite the former's attempt to catch him off guard, blocks her attack, clashes with her, and pushes her away with a kick. Mikasa is seen holding arm and surprised. If her arm is just kicked and she's holding it, it's pretty evident that she's hurt.

Bertolt is not an Ackerman. He has no reason to scale to 8-C, and he should not be able to clash with a character who is supposedly 8-C. This is not a feat for Bertolt, but an anti-feat for Mikasa and other Ackermans as well, since they all scale due to same reason. If this was a feat for Bertolt, other warriors would scale to him, characters like Eren scale to them, and other many characters can scale to Eren; You'd get large part of main cast being 8-C, which would be ridiculous.

In conclusion I think Titans are very inconsistent, can take damage from things weaker than themselves, have bodies that cannot handle their own AP, and therefore no human character should scale to them. With Bertolt, an obviously 9-B character briefly clashing with Mikasa.

With all of these considered, I believe Ackermans should be downgraded to "At least 9-B+", scaling much above other humans, but too much as trained Warriors like Bertolt, although weaker, can momentarily keep up.

Agree: LuciferDC099

Disagree:

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Besides, Eren states that the Ackermans can "partly manifest the strength of a Titan" and this strength only appears in certain, active situations.

 

[Verethragna]

Besides, Eren states that the Ackermans can "partly manifest the strength of a Titan" and this strength only appears in certain, active situations.

It was later revealed that Eren was lying during his conversation with Mikasa and Armin. We don't know how much of what he said is truth and how much of it is lie. I'd consider that to be an unreliable narrator. Bertolt himself serves as a solid anti-feat imo

 

[Kin201]

I find myself agreeing with this. Humans in the verse are glass canon. If a 15-meter-tall Titan stomps on Levi, he would get pasted.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree at least that typically the Ackerman characters should not be rated that highly.

Maybe: "At least X (What their feats are), possibly higher (Ackermans can recieve strength boosts in certain situations)"

 

[Nullflowerblush]

It was later revealed that Eren was lying during his conversation with Mikasa and Armin. We don't know how much of what he said is truth and how much of it is lie. I'd consider that to be an unreliable narrator. Bertolt himself serves as a solid anti-feat imo

Eren only lied about the Ackermans being subservient to a host, no? If all of what he said was unreliable and to be disregarded, wouldn't the entire concept of Ackermans even possessing a smidgen of a Titan's strength be disregarded as well?

 

[Verethragna]

Eren only lied about the Ackermans being subservient to a host, no? If all of what he said was unreliable and to be disregarded, wouldn't the entire concept of Ackermans even possessing a smidgen of a Titan's strength be disregarded as well?

That's why I said we don't know how much of Eren's words are truth or lie. The entire story might be made up or just the host part. Unreliable narration imo

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I agree at least that typically the Ackerman characters should not be rated that highly.

Maybe: "At least X (What their feats are), possibly higher (Ackermans can recieve strength boosts in certain situations)"

Their feats are killing titans with their bare hands and being directly stated by both the manga and the lore book to have physical power on par with titans

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hell iirc Levi has feats of being on par with titans physically in the prequel novel

 

[Nullflowerblush]

scans?

 

[Excellence616]

All Ackermans except Levi. He is clearly the strongest Ackerman.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

scans?

I'm at work atm so my scan capabilities are limited but he caved a titan's skull in with a kick to the head

https://imgur.io/a/RU2ul3w

 

[WeeklyBattles]

All Ackermans except Levi. He is clearly the strongest Ackerman.

Mikasa is his physical equal though and has the same Ackerman Path connection that he does

 

[Verethragna]

I'm at work atm so my scan capabilities are limited but he caved a titan's skull in with a kick to the head

https://imgur.io/a/RU2ul3w

Image looks more like Levi is pushing the titan away rather than crushing its skull, but whatever

Besides, I'm not disputing harming Titan feats. I'm mainly saying that Titan AP and durability are inconsistent, they take damage from things that should be much weaker and still take damage from things that they themselves nearly oneshot, therefore no human should scale to them. Sasha with an axe can also damage Titans, Also Bertolt anti-feat

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Lemme read through and gather my thoughts.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Image looks more like Levi is pushing the titan away rather than crushing its skull, but whatever

Besides, I'm not disputing harming Titan feats. I'm mainly saying that Titan AP and durability are inconsistent, they take damage from things that should be much weaker and still take damage from things that they themselves nearly oneshot, therefore no human should scale to them. Sasha with an axe can also damage Titans, Also Bertolt anti-feat

It's not inconsistent though? The stuff they take damage from is stuff that is canonically on their level or specifically designed to be able to cut things as durable at themselves. As for the Eren stuff, that's literally just his AP being higher than his durability, with his durability already being high enough to block a cannonball that pastes Pure Titans. As for the eating stuff, titans canonically have stronger and more durable teeth than the rest of their bodies, hell the Jaw Titan is literally meant to show this.

Also what bertolt antifeat? The one where he just redirected Mikasa? How is that an anti-feat?

 

[Verethragna]

It's not inconsistent though? The stuff they take damage from is stuff that is canonically on their level or specifically designed to be able to cut things as durable at themselves. As for the Eren stuff, that's literally just his AP being higher than his durability, with his durability already being high enough to block a cannonball that pastes Pure Titans. As for the eating stuff, titans canonically have stronger and more durable teeth than the rest of their bodies, hell the Jaw Titan is literally meant to show this.

Also what bertolt antifeat? The one where he just redirected Mikasa? How is that an anti-feat?

Apparently axe and bow Sasha used coninically on their level. A 8-C wouldn't even get stracthed by those weapons used by a 9-B

That's what I was saying. Titans have inconsistent durability that can be lower than their AP

Eren blocked a cannonball with a Titan he speficially created to block it, with its hand, and the hand is not visible after that, implying it got pasted after blocking it. Pure Titans would also be able to block cannonballs in exchange of getting pasted

Where is it said that Titan's teeth is stronger and more durable than rest of its body? AFAIK the only one with such ability is Jaw Titan, whose name is literally Jaw, having strong Jaw is its speciality

Where he literally clashed with Mikasa and visibly hurt her with a kick. He legit blocked attacks from her, which would be impossible if she was literal Titan in human body. Either she isn't 8-C or he is also 8-C, the latter of which would raise a good portion of the cast to 8-C as well

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Apparently axe and bow Sasha used coninically on their level. A 8-C wouldn't even get stracthed by those weapons used by a 9-B

That was a two meter Titan, AKA the smallest and weakest variant. Secondly, force + a sharp object = a lot of damage. Sharp objects cause more damage than blunt force with less effort, which is why they caused the Titan to bleed. Lastly, despite having an advantage with a sharp object, Sasha was unable to cut through his nape and had to run away.

That's what I was saying. Titans have inconsistent durability that can be lower than their AP

I don't think it's inconsistency, I think it's merely a lack of feats. There are no 8-C durability feats for pure Titans. Their tier comes from scaling to the titan shifters by eating them.

Where is it said that Titan's teeth is stronger and more durable than rest of its body? AFAIK the only one with such ability is Jaw Titan, whose name is literally Jaw, having strong Jaw is its speciality

This doesn’t need to be stated, it's common sense. Bites generally have more force than strikes and teeth, with its piercing effect, would cause even more damage. Someone like Mike Tyson can tank you punches but I can guarantee you can rip a chunk of his flesh off with a strong bite.

I think Titans should have 9-B durability with 8-C bite force since they have no striking/dura feats that high and have numerous anti feats.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah i can agree to downgrading Pure titans to only scaling to the shifters with their teeth

Also lowkey wondering what Eren's lifting strength would be for holding open the jaws of a pure titan in human form...

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Where he literally clashed with Mikasa and visibly hurt her with a kick. He legit blocked attacks from her, which would be impossible if she was literal Titan in human body. Either she isn't 8-C or he is also 8-C, the latter of which would raise a good portion of the cast to 8-C as well

No, he didnt. He redirected her blade, knocked her off balance as she was standing on a slanted rooftop, and then ran away when she regained her footing and came after him again.

 

[Verethragna]

No, he didnt. He redirected her blade, knocked her off balance as she was standing on a slanted rooftop, and then ran away when she regained her footing and came after him again.

Manga panel clearly makes it look like he blocked the attack despite being caught offguard, and also visibly hurt her with a kick. What would happen here if Mikasa had Titan strength is that she would cut through the sword and bisect Bertolt in half, yet this plays out like two relative people clashing

That was a two meter Titan, AKA the smallest and weakest variant. Secondly, force + a sharp object = a lot of damage. Sharp objects cause more damage than blunt force with less effort, which is why they caused the Titan to bleed. Lastly, despite having an advantage with a sharp object, Sasha was unable to cut through his nape and had to run away.

I don't think it's inconsistency, I think it's merely a lack of feats. There are no 8-C durability feats for pure Titans. Their tier comes from scaling to the titan shifters by eating them.

This doesn’t need to be stated, it's common sense. Bites generally have more force than strikes and teeth, with its piercing effect, would cause even more damage. Someone like Mike Tyson can tank you punches but I can guarantee you can rip a chunk of his flesh off with a strong bite.

I think Titans should have 9-B durability with 8-C bite force since they have no striking/dura feats that high and have numerous anti feats.

That's the thing, it is one of the weakest Titans but apparently all Pure Titans scale to 8-C here. If smallest and weakest variants are not 8-C then why would Ackermans directly scale to strongest variant of Pure Titans. Titans are almost always damaged by sharp objects already, it's not like Ackermans running around punching Titans into paste. The setting of the Show makes it look like even Ackermans would not be able to fight off Titans without equipment

I can obviously understand teeth being stronger in that regard, but you aren't going to bite through someone who can nearly oneshot you if their durability is as high as their own AP, which is not, which means Titan durability is also much lower than their AP, often able to shrugg stuff off due to sheer size.

That's fine, Ackermans can be 8-C with equipment, but them being base 8-C have antifeats and also ruins the setting imo no human should scale to Titans

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Manga panel clearly makes it look like he blocked the attack despite being caught offguard, and also visibly hurt her with a kick. What would happen here if Mikasa had Titan strength is that she would cut through the sword and bisect Bertolt in half, yet this plays out like two relative people clashing

The anime is an almost 1 to 1 recreation of the manga my guy, he didnt hurt her and he didnt block her, he redirected it and knocked her off balance, then ran away.

 

[Verethragna]

The anime is an almost 1 to 1 recreation of the manga my guy, he didnt hurt her and he didnt block her, he redirected it and knocked her off balance, then ran away.

"Almost 1 to 1" I was using the original source material but fine, it's clear he still blocked, that's what being shown I don't know why you're saying he didn't. Also sent her away with a kick.

Bertolt is also standing on top of a rooftop here but for some reason only Mikasa is knocked off balance, he is blocking her despite her attempt to catch him offguard

Mikasa is shown holding her arm and is surprised. She wouldn't be holding her arm like that if he wasn't hurt. Also, as I said earlier, Mikasa should be able to bisect Bertolt in half with that attack if she was 8-C. This is a solid antifeat

 

[WeeklyBattles]

"Almost 1 to 1" I was using the original source material but fine, it's clear he still blocked, that's what being shown I don't know why you're saying he didn't. Also sent her away with a kick.

Bertolt is also standing on top of a rooftop here but for some reason only Mikasa is knocked off balance, he is blocking her despite her attempt to catch him offguard

Mikasa is shown holding her arm and is surprised. She wouldn't be holding her arm like that if he wasn't hurt. Also, as I said earlier, Mikasa should be able to bisect Bertolt in half with that attack if she was 8-C. This is a solid antifeat

Yes, he knocked her off balance, they were on a slanted rooftop

Its not an anti-feat at all, he didnt hurt her

And as i said earlier, he redirected the attack which is exactly why it didnt bisect him

 

[Verethragna]

Yes, he knocked her off balance, they were on a slanted rooftop

Its not an anti-feat at all, he didnt hurt her

And as i said earlier, he redirected the attack which is exactly why it didnt bisect him

He did block her, and he did hurt her. He didn't redirect it, he blocked the attack that should've bisected him. This is what's being shown, not what you're saying. Anime puts even more emphasis on impact of Bertolt's kick

We can wait for opinions of others

 

[Manhattanth06]

I agree with the downscale,but for Levi he shold be wall level+ to at least smallbuilding level because he could damage the titan's face. scan
The face of titan that was supposed the same level had high durability that could easily break down a wall without taking any damage. scan
And for mikasa and kenny,I think it should be on the same level as Levi.

 

[Verethragna]

I agree with the downscale,but for Levi he shold be wall level+ to at least smallbuilding level because he could damage the titan's face scan.
The face of titan that was supposed the same level had high durability that could easily break down a wall without taking any damage scan.
And for mikasa and kenny,I think it should be on the same level as Levi.

That scan was posted before honestly it looks more like Levi is pushing the Titan away rather than damaging it, which is possible considering Titans are much lighter than they suggest


Besides, due to how variable Titans are, we have no way to know the Titan Levi supposedly damaged has the same durability as the one that broke a wall with its face.

I don't know what tier they should get, I was mainly disagreeing 8-C feat due to variable and inconsistent Titan durability and Bertolt anti-feat. I do think Mikasa would win against Bertolt in a prolonged fight (if no Colossus involved) but their brief clash plays out like two somewhat relative people clashing.

Also, Kenny was easily defeated by Founding Titan, which gets pasted by Attack Titan. He should've been able to fight his way out of there if he was 8-C. Kenny even says Founding Titan has overwhelming power, believes he can get crushed to death, and the knife he throws does not go beyond Uri's arm, which should pierce through him if it was thrown by a 8-C

The setting of the show almost never threats Ackermans as strong as 8-C Titans, they're merely being potrayed as much stronger, faster, and more skilled than regular humans, possibly compared to 3-meter 9-B+ Titans

 

[Verethragna]

Bump

So what do you think?

 

[Verethragna]

bump

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

I agree with the downscale,but for Levi he shold be wall level+ to at least smallbuilding level because he could damage the titan's face. scan
The face of titan that was supposed the same level had high durability that could easily break down a wall without taking any damage. scan
And for mikasa and kenny,I think it should be on the same level as Levi.

No doubt in my mind that at least Levi should scale to Titan's which size is debatable but that image shows Levi hitting what I presume is a 15M class titan with enough force to make him spit blood out of his Mouth.

Should pure titans scale to the 8-C value of the shifters? I think no, they are consistently portrayed as fodder and are regularly 1 shot by shifters. Pure titans should scale to there feats of breaking down walls and such which is also what top tier Ackermans should scale to.

 

[Verethragna]

No doubt in my mind that at least Levi should scale to Titan's which size is debatable but that image shows Levi hitting what I presume is a 15M class titan with enough force to make him spit blood out of his Mouth.

Should pure titans scale to the 8-C value of the shifters? I think no, they are consistently portrayed as fodder and are regularly 1 shot by shifters. Pure titans should scale to there feats of breaking down walls and such which is also what top tier Ackermans should scale to.

In that case, other Ackermans should be able to achieve the same feat since they all get their power from the same thing, and trained warriors like Bertolt can momentarily keep up with one of them.

I agree with you that Pure Titans themselves should not be 8-C and are fodders to Shifters, who are potrayed as much superior to Ackermans without proper gear, as I wrote earlier, partially-transformed Uri could easily defeat Kenny, using only one arm

Pure Titans should be about at least 9-B+, scaling much above regular humans and can casually break walls, possibly 8-C with teeth as they can harm Shifters. But their durability should still be about 9-B+. Thus Ackermans themselves should be about At least 9-B+ in base

So people, agree or disagree?

 

[LuciferDC099]

Pure Titans should be about at least 9-B+, scaling much above regular humans and can casually break walls, possibly 8-C with teeth as they can harm Shifters. But their durability should still be about 9-B+. Thus Ackermans themselves should be about At least 9-B+ in base

So people, agree or disagree?

I agree with this.

 

[Excellence616]

agree except Levi

 

[Verethragna]

agree except Levi

Kenny and Mikasa logically scale comparable to Levi due to all having the same "Awakened Power"

 

[Excellence616]

Kenny and Mikasa logically scale comparable to Levi due to all having the same "Awakened Power"

But that doesn't mean they are equals. All Hulks have the same power but different power levels. Same as Kryptonians

 

[LuciferDC099]

But that doesn't mean they are equals. All Hulks have the same power but different power levels. Same as Kryptonians

Levi is stronger than Mikasa but the gap isn't as big as between 9-B and 8-C. Levi was stronger than Mikasa because he had way more experience with killing titans than her. It wasn't a pure AP superiority as both of them can partly manifest a titan's strength in human form. Tbh Post-timeskip Mikasa was close to Levi as she was able to fight with Warhammer Titan on 1v1 (3rd strongest titan) and was destroying ancient shifters during Battle of Heavens and Earth.

 

[Verethragna]

But that doesn't mean they are equals. All Hulks have the same power but different power levels. Same as Kryptonians

Nevermind, Pure Titans themselves will (hopefully) get downgraded to having at least 9-B+ durability, so Levi also is getting (hopefully) downgraded to at least 9-B+

 

[Verethragna]

To conclude all arguments on this thread

Levi kicks a Titan hard enough to harm it (I personally don't buy this but won't dispute)

Titans have variable durability, are easy fodders to Shifters, can be damaged by axes and bows wield by 9-Bs, and thus should not scale to 8-C durability, but rather about at least 9-B+ durability for being far stronger than human soldiers (who are 9-B) and casually breaking walls and not taking much damage from it.

All Ackermans are relative to one another, Levi himself even said fighting against Kenny would be like fighting against himself, and Kenny got defeated by a partially-transformed Founding Titan using only 1 arm, and said it had overwhelming power. I believe Pure Titans or Ackermans would be able to escape if they were 8-C.

A Fully-transformed Founding Titan gets fodderized by Attack Titan as if it is a Pure Titan. Although a Shifter, it is quite weak, and it still beat Kenny with only one arm

Bertolt blocked an attack from Mikasa and visibly hurt her with a kick, who should scale to other Ackermans.

With all these considered I believe what needs to be done here is;

Pure Titans AP should be Varies, at least 9-B+. possibly 8-C with teeth, and their durability should be at least 9-B+

Ackermans should be at least 9-B+, stronger than regular humans but not strong enough to always oneshot them, trained Warriors like Bertolt can momentarily keep up with them.

Anything else?

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

To conclude all arguments on this thread

Levi kicks a Titan hard enough to harm it (I personally don't buy this but won't dispute)

Titans have variable durability, are easy fodders to Shifters, can be damaged by axes and bows wield by 9-Bs, and thus should not scale to 8-C durability, but rather about at least 9-B+ durability for being far stronger than human soldiers (who are 9-B) and casually breaking walls and not taking much damage from it.

All Ackermans are relative to one another, Levi himself even said fighting against Kenny would be like fighting against himself, and Kenny got defeated by a partially-transformed Founding Titan using only 1 arm, and said it had overwhelming power. I believe Pure Titans or Ackermans would be able to escape if they were 8-C.

A Fully-transformed Founding Titan gets fodderized by Attack Titan as if it is a Pure Titan. Although a Shifter, it is quite weak, and it still beat Kenny with only one arm

Bertolt blocked an attack from Mikasa and visibly hurt her with a kick, who should scale to other Ackermans.

With all these considered I believe what needs to be done here is;

Pure Titans AP should be Varies, at least 9-B+. possibly 8-C with teeth, and their durability should be at least 9-B+

Ackermans should be at least 9-B+, stronger than regular humans but not strong enough to always oneshot them, trained Warriors like Bertolt can momentarily keep up with them.

Anything else?

Everything looks almost perfect though a few things should be noted.
1. Not all Ackerman's should scale to each other unless they are AWAKENED. Otherwise they should just scale to what normal humans or corps members scale to.
This doesn't affect much as we only have three that really matter
2. Titan shifters durability should be noted to be weaker than there physical attacks as the regularly destroy there own bodies with said attacks. Only when reinforced by Titan hardening should they scale fully to AP. How do we treat there base durability? IDRN, unless we wanna backscale and say they are superior to 15 meter Titans with 9-B+ dura or straight up 9-A if the wall breaking feat is close enough to upscale. It's kinda debatable and I'm fine with whatever's easiest.
3. Using what I said above about Shifters only scaling to their AP with hardening Pure titans should simply be listed as "Higher" since they regularly do zero damage to hardened titan skin.

 

[Verethragna]

Everything looks almost perfect though a few things should be noted.
1. Not all Ackerman's should scale to each other unless they are AWAKENED. Otherwise they should just scale to what normal humans or corps members scale to.
This doesn't affect much as we only have three that really matter
2. Titan shifters durability should be noted to be weaker than there physical attacks as the regularly destroy there own bodies with said attacks. Only when reinforced by Titan hardening should they scale fully to AP. How do we treat there base durability? IDRN, unless we wanna backscale and say they are superior to 15 meter Titans with 9-B+ dura or straight up 9-A if the wall breaking feat is close enough to upscale. It's kinda debatable and I'm fine with whatever's easiest.
3. Using what I said above about Shifters only scaling to their AP with hardening Pure titans should simply be listed as "Higher" since they regularly do zero damage to hardened titan skin.

Agree with you. I think 9-A dura for Pure Titans is a bit iffy since that would make Ackermans jump to 9-A even though regular humans like Bertolt can somewhat keep up with them. Pure Titans being at least 9-B+ dura is more suitable due to being much stronger than regular humans and casually breaking walls and take no damage from it. I already mentioned earlier that unhardened Shifters can destroy their own bodies with their own attacks

Pure Titans are at least 9-B+ (maybe 8-C with teeth)

Ackermans are at least 9-B+ (stronger than regular humans but not enough to fodderize all of them, can somewhat harm Titans but I believe are still weaker than 15m class)