Acausality and Resistances to Paradoxes and Causality Manipulation

[Monarch_Laciel]

Acausality needs to changed. We need to have better standards to make clear what is acausality and what is just resistance to time paradoxes and causality manipulation, because acausality is one of the most broken powers (more a state of existence) on this wiki.

First: The definition of acausality as it is on this wiki.

"Acausality is defined as the ability to exist outside of causality, or the natural flow of manipulation defined by cause and effect."

Sure, makes sense. The definition is fine and dandy. The problem comes from people not seeing to realise what this logically means. Causality defines just about everything that has happened, is happening, and can happen. So logically, transcending cause and effect (on your level/dimension or reality) means transcending just about everything on it. Because if the cause is recieving an attack, the effect is being harmed. A "true acausal" who exists outside of causality and the natural flow of cause and effect is essentially invincible seeing as no matter the cause, they will not be affected. Let's use BB as an example. She isn't listed as acausal, but her Potnia Theron and 10 Crowns pretty much show what I mean. They make any possible effect on her "not have happened". It cuts off the cause from the effect, making it so that no matter what the enemy does, it will not affect her. Someone who exists outside of causality and the natural flow of cause and effect would have this ability as a passive thing. People didn't seem to understand this on the other thread I made with this topic in mind, so hopefully this example shows what I mean.

This is true acausality. Complete transcendence from cause and effect (on the user's dimensional level). But on this wiki, I've seen things like resistance/immunity to time paradoxes and resistance to causality manipulation (because there is a difference) being treated as acausality.

Many profiles on this wiki are listed as having acauality when all they have shown is resistance/immunity to time paradoxes, or have just shown resistance to causality manipulation. Just because someone's present self sticks around after their child self dies, doesn't mean they can survive having their existence being turned into the cause of their non-existence, or ignore cause and effect being reversed so a spear always hits them in the heart.

So here is my proposal:

In order to be listed as acausal, there need to be clear and reliable statements about the person transcending or existing outside of causality/cause and effect. Depending on just how reliable the statement-maker is, showings and feats need to either back this up or at least not contradict it on multiple or significant occassions (a minor contradiction can be considered PIS, but it would need to be considered on a case-by-case basis). This is for true acausality, which has the effects I stated above.

Also, there needs to be two additions to the resistances page. These would be "Resistance to causality manipulation" - e.g. F/SN Saber (who'se luck let her dodge the Gae Bolg's causality reversal) and "resistance to time paradoxes" - e.g. Sol Badguy (survived in the present after his past self died).

Also, while I'm on the topic of acausality, it would be good to add an "Acausal Characters" category to people determined to be true acausals.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am personally fine with simply being immune to, for example, being killed as a baby via time travel, as sufficient reason to warrant base level acausality, but we should probably turn the Acausality page text more thorough, to clarify that there are different levels of this ability.

 

[Promestein]

I agree here, absolutely.

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein With the original poster?

 

[Promestein]

Yes, though it depends on the entity in question, and how they are portrayed. The implications of true acausality, and the requirements, should be better described, however.

 

[KinkiestSins]

This honestly kinda confused me, but I am glad this post made.

Out of curiousity, let me ask this. Assuming someone went back in time to kill someone.

If they survive even in the future, that means they are acasual in the old definition, correct?

But now, we are going to only use acausality if they exist outside of every realm of cause and effect and not just paradoxes and causality goofs?

If so, I am fine with this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. However, it would require first a revision of the Acausality page text, and then replacing the ability and category with "Immunity to Time Paradoxes" or somesuch for all of the relevant characters.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Okay. However, it would require first a revision of the Acausality page text, and then replacing the ability and category with "Immunity to Time Paradoxes" or somesuch for all of the relevant characters.

Just spitballing, but Paradox Immunity seems to be an easy name for the power. I read this somewhere, I think either on obd or power wiki. But hey, it works.

Edit: It was Paradox Defiance on powers wiki, just checked.

 

[Promestein]

Paradox Immunity is fine. We should have much more input, though.

 

[Antvasima]

"Paradox Immunity" should work, yes. Thanks.

 

[Reppuzan]

This seems reasonable to me.

I hated the whole "I cannot be killed because I'm Acausal" arguments anyway since this is rarely shown in the story itself.

Of course, this would lead to a slight Zeed downgrade, but he's hard enough to kill already.

 

[KinkiestSins]

What would be an easy way to relabel the Acausality page? The definition above in the OP seems fine.

"Acasuality is the ability to transcend or exist outside of cause and effect in all circumstances. Note that a true acasual being is not subject to any cause and effect. This means that specialized forms such as Paradox Immunity and Casuality Resistance do not necessarily mean a being is acausual, only that they are resistant to aspects of casuality."

Something like that, My brain is tired. Added some things to make it complete and readable.

 

[Kaltias]

Most of this looks fine, but I disagree with the fact that acausality should be granted to every higher dimensional being. It would be only logical for them to have it, I know, but at the same time, its the same story as Immeasurable speed. You should have it only if you show it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that somebody/somebodies would have to adjust most of the following pages (tier 1-A and upwards obviously excluded), by replacing the links to the Acausality page and category with Paradox Immunity:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index....sHere&limit=500&target=Acausality&namespace=0

As you can see, there are lots of them, so it would require considerable work.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kinkiest

Let me just tweak that a bit:

"Acausality refers to a state where a character is able to transcend or exist outside of the laws and effect in all scenarios. Acausal beings would be unaffected by most attacks as attacks that happen in the present would not affect them in the future due to being unhinged from the natural flow of events. Please note that feats such as surviving a temporal paradox alone would not qualify for true Acausality, as the characters in question would still be affected by the natural laws of cause and effect normally unless stated otherwise. For these examples, it is best to lists Paradox Immunity or a Resistance to Causality Manipulation depending on the context of the characters' feats."

 

[Reppuzan]

@Antvasima

Don't 1-As exist above causality in most scenarios anyways?

 

[Promestein]

"Acausality is the ability to transcend or exist outside of the regular process of cause and effect. While an acausal character is beyond the causality of their level of existence, they are still subject to higher-dimensions.

While a character surviving being killed in the past may seem like a showing of Acausality, it would be better described as Paradox Immunity, as such characters often do not show the traits of a true acausal being. A true acausal being would be immune to most forms of attack on their level of existence, as they can simply ignore the flow of cause and effect altogether, becoming near impossible to damage or kill."

I'm tired and I'm going to bed but there's that. It's something.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with Reppuzan's suggestion, and yes, 1-A entities listed with the Acausality ability should probably keep the listing.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@Kinkiest

Let me just tweak that a bit:

"Acausality refers to a state where a character is able to transcend or exist outside of the laws and effect in all scenarios. Acausal beings would be unaffected by most attacks as attacks that happen in the present would not affect them in the future due to being unhinged from the natural flow of events. Please note that feats such as surviving a temporal paradox alone would not qualify for true Acausality, as the characters in question would still be affected by the natural laws of cause and effect normally unless stated otherwise. For these examples, it is best to lists Paradox Immunity or a Resistance to Causality Manipulation depending on the context of the characters' feats."

I love this definition. It is more concise then mine and I think it has no room for error when someone makes a profile. Honestly just spitballed mine together quickly Promstein also has a great one too. I can go with either one though.

 

[Kaltias]

Instead of making new pages, wouldn't it be better to specify that there are "degrees" of Acausality? For example, not every Acausal can summon other versions of itself to keep fighting. Some are only immune to paradoxes/causality manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

That is another option that would require considerably less work, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

However, it depends on whether or not anybody would be willing to handle the workload.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Instead of making new pages, wouldn't it be better to specify that there are "degrees" of Acausality? For example, not every Acausal can summon other versions of itself to keep fighting. Some are only immune to paradoxes/causality manipulation.

Well there aren't really degrees of acausality. If you are acausal, you exist outside cause and effect, and that's it. Acausality is the sort of power that is up there with omnipresence or omniscience. It's an absolute (on its dimensional level, as always)

We could divide the acausality page into types in the same way as the immortality page, (e,g, type 1 = paradox immunity, type 2 = true acausality) which would be easier, if not entirely accurate

 

[Kaltias]

Yes, that's what I meant.

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of the staff think? Should we have two pages, which would require more work, but also be correct, or modify the current page, as Kaltias suggested?

 

[Reppuzan]

I can work with either option, but I'd think I'd want more Staff and possibly former Staff input on this.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. You can message them for help and input if you wish.

 

[Sera_EX]

Whichever is more simple.

 

[Reppuzan]

Ultimately, both would require a fair amount of work. Creating a new page would mean going through all the profiles and replacing the ones that don't actually qualify. Creating different levels of Acausality would require providing justifications on every profile (which is what we should do anyway).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Then I prefer having two separate pages. However, we would need volunteers to modify the profile links, and given the striking strength revision project, plenty of us are likely either tired or busy.

 

[Sera_EX]

What irritates me is that I brought this up about six months ago and three admins told me our acausality definition was fine, it's literally causality negation (I believe that's what Powerlisting calls it). So yeah, you'll have to forgive me if I find the resurface of this a bit annoying. I'm glad Monarch made this thread, it should've been addressed back then.

Btw, two separate pages seems best but I agree with Repp that in the future we need better clarifications for certain abilities.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

We might not need to add a new page for paradox immunity and causality manipulation resistance. We could just add them to the Resistance page. We'd still need to re-write the acausality page and change all the acausal profiles, but it's a bit less work I suppose

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if we have to change all of the profiles that link to Acausality anyway, I think that a new "Paradox Immunity" page would be preferable.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I agree with this

 

[DaFritzi]

I agree with this change, whether it will be 2 pages or just 1.

However it seems that there is a misconception about higher dimensions which I'm going to adress here (See Expand).

"While an acausal character is beyond the causality of their level of existence, they are still subject to higher-dimensions."

"This is true acausality. Complete transcendence from cause and effect (on the user's dimensional level)."

First of all dimensions are just properties of time and space. They have no connection to cause and effect. There are no levels of causality, you are either affected by it or not.

If a character is a true accausal he transcends cause and effect as a whole. Thus he cannot be affected by any cause. Whether that cause comes from a being with 3, 4 or more spatial dimensions makes no difference whatsoever.

In order to affect a true accausal you either need to have reality/conceptual manipulation that lets you overcome the accausality or you have to transcend causality yourself (other accausals or 1-A and above).

I am aware that this means that it is possible for a weaker character to be immune to anything a higher dimensional character does. However this is just how cause and effect work and as long as you don't transcend the system itself you are bound by it no matter how many dimensions you have. The concept of cause and effect works the same whether you are a human or a higher dimensional being.

Based on Kinkiest, Rep and Prom I would suggest the following Definition:

"Acausality refers to a state of existence where a character is able to transcend or exist outside of the laws of cause and effect in all scenarios. Acausal beings would be unaffected by most attacks as the flow of cause and effect does not apply to them.

Please note that in order to affect a true accausal a character needs to have either sufficient reality/conceptual manipulation or transcend causality as well (Meaning: Other accausals or characters 1-A and above).

Please also note that feats such as surviving a temporal paradox alone would not qualify for true Acausality, as the characters in question would still be affected by the natural laws of cause and effect normally unless stated otherwise. For these examples, it is best to list Paradox Immunity or a Resistance to Causality Manipulation depending on the context of the characters' feats."

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Seems legit to me. I agree.

 

[Kaltias]

@Fritzi

Causality IS related to time though.

Causality is:

Cause -> [time flows] -> Effect. And there are indeed levels of causality.

For example, character X is 4D and it busts a timeline. From the perspective of a 3D being like myself, no cause nor effect was involved. The universe simply never existed.

From the perspective of the 4D character however (who perceive a higher dimensional time) the timeline had a beginning and a end, and the cause of its end was its attack.

 

[DaFritzi]

@Kaltias

Causality does not need a flow of time.

A cause that occurs in one moment can have it's effect in the very same moment (e.g. a character with infinite speed attacks).

Also a cause occurring in the present can have an effect on a specific point in the past. Once again there is no time flowing until the effect occurs because it occurrs in the past.

For example, character X is 4D and it busts a timeline. From the perspective of a 3D being like myself, no cause nor effect was involved. The universe simply never existed.

From the perspective of the 4D character however (who perceive a higher dimensional time) the timeline had a beginning and a end, and the cause of its end was its attack.

The causality works the same for both the 3D and the 4D being.

The cause is in both cases the timeline busting attack. The effect is i both cases the timeline is destroyed.

The 3D being is simply not able to fully percieve what has happened. That doesn't change what has happened though. It's not like two different things happened just because the two beings percieved it differently.

 

[DontTalk]

Oh hey, another debate about semantics.

In this case I don't mind, though. I wanted to get clarification on the destinction made between resisting time paradoxes, resisting causality and the whole no version in time being affected by what happens to the other versions for a long time, just because throwing all into the same pot is impracticle.

Whether types are added to the acausality page or seperate pages are made is both fine with me.


The new page should maybe be named "Time Paradox Immunity", instead of just "Paradox Immunity", unless the page should include Immunity to other paradoxes as well (logical paradoxes for example).

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with "Time Paradox Immunity".