Abstract beings that manipulate concepts

[Zenkaibattery1]

If you are a abstract being, shouldn't you theoratically have control over the concept you embody?

If not, what level of control over the concept do you have to show to get conceptual manipulation

 

[PaChi2]

"If you are a being made of cells, shouldnt you have control over each of your cells?"

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

You do, actually. With supplements. Which means no.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

But you can move your body, which would be made of the concept

 

[PaChi2]

But you can move your body, which would be made of the concept </div>

 

[PaChi2]

Simply put, abstracts have the control over the concept they represent that they show. Which may be full control or zero control.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Would this then be enough for concept manipulation.

Grandfather Spider has been accepted by multiple staff to be an abstract being (Chaos and Shadow). There hasn't been much disucssion, but it has been rejected that he has concept manipulation. He should have concept manipulation because he embodies the concept and controls it to a really high degree

https://imgur.com/a/jWW2RYB With his heart, he will regain the power of unlimited chaos, while it seems figure of speech at first, the entire game is based on his heart, he embodies it, and it literally created..... creation, and without it existence goes bye bye. https://imgur.com/a/rEr36Py

https://imgur.com/a/I2IBGV8 His heart is chaos itself and can break the fabric of existence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irBql6DEQAY&feature=youtu.be&t=1181 Shadow, the other concept he embodies was messing with time itself.

 

[Antvasima]

PaChi2 is probably correct. Even conceptual entities need to demonstrate conceptual manipulation, or otherwise have it clarified that they possess the ability.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I think it's clearly clarified above that he has control over the concepts he embodies

He states he can show the power of unlimited chaos (the concept he embodies) with his heart

That chaos and shadow literaly created the spiral and without it, existence would be destroyed

Shadow, the second concept he embodies made time itself crack, and he made villains of the past infinitely stronger (They all jumped from High 4-C to High 3-A) by inducing them with shadow (Shadowock, Shadowbones etc)

 

[Agnaa]

If we're being really strict that seems like AP or power granting and not concept manip.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zenkai

I am not sure if that is Conceptual Manipulation or Chaos Manipulation.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

@agnaa

AP would be him being able to destroy creation and existence/existence requiring him to exist to.... exist. Power Transfer yes, but he's giving them power from a concept he embodies (shadow) by infinity

@Ant

It would be Chaos manipulation if he simply just controlled it. In this case he's embodying it, and controlling it to a really high degree. Embodying and controlling the concept you embody to a degree that can destroy existence really sounds like CM to me.

But I'll ask some more staff for input

 

[Dark649]

I'm neutral about this.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm neutral to this as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe "Chaos Manipulation, possibly Conceptual Manipulation"?

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I suppose that could work

For his weakened Key it would be straight Chaos Manipulation

But the key with his heart would be "Chaos Manipulation, possibly Conceptual Manipulation (Embodies and with his heart, has power over unlimited chaos, which can unravel the very fabric of existence")?

This would also be added to the this page

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that I think that conceptual manipulation transcends more than just a single area. Embodying a certain concept and having control over associated forces is probably not enough. Chaos manipulation alone would probably be safer.

 

[Wokistan]

Just because you are the embodiment of a concept does not give you the ability to affect other concepts in a meaningful way, and in some cases even your own concept isn't something you can alter at whim, abstract embodiment or not. He needs to demonstrate concept manip, and what you've described comes off as powerful chaos manip.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Conceptual_Manipulation

2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.

>His chaos shapes the entirety of the wizard101 reality/existence. Without it, reality wouldn't exist.

Lesser Realist Concept: Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are governed by the perception of these concept by sentient beings. Without the perception of other beings, these concepts would cease to exist. As such, these concepts are far more vulnerable and are generally lesser when compared to all other abstract concepts. However, these concepts are truly abstract, and manipulating the abstract concept itself is still conceptual manipulation. Similarly to Type 3, this type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying all sentient life (or otherwise blocking all perception) and thus ending all concepts of this level would not qualify, while directly destroying all concepts of this level and thus blocking all perception would qualify.

>His purpose for existing is keeping balance in reality by existing as and controlling chaos and shadow as a counter to light (But he of course wants to use it for his own needs)

It does not neccesairly need to transcended to reality, it just needs to be universal in nature

Demigra at one point was considered having concept manipulation becuase his evil energy shaped a timeline

 

[Agnaa]

Being a false platonic concept doesn't mean you can manipulate false platonic concepts.

It's probably best to leave this as chaos manipulation.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

alight, guess someone can close it then

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread. For the record, I agree wih Wokistan.