About souls in DMC

[Reploidnoridomix]

what did you guy even debate here,i'm too lazy to read

 

[Greenshifter]

Whether souls are always 9D in DMC or not.

 

[Random-Helper323]

They’re given a size, you can localize a soul, trap it if you will. All properties of being in a certain place.

Dante was also able to interact with a non-existent void, and frequently kills intangible enemies. His ability to interact with things isn't exactly typical. And if demons can return from having their concept erased and Dante can still kill them, he can clearly interact with things that would typically be impossible to interact with.

I’m just saying the soul is too big to be completely in the human world if it’s 9D at all times, regardless of it being abstract or not.

Demons generally don't fully obey the laws of space and time, and I think other characters who are higher dimensional have been able to appear in lower dimensions in other verse's. And unlike the demon world itself, I don't recall any statements that the Soul is infinite in size in that dimensional scale. It might not be that big, just higher dimensional and abstract. And who knows what properties the bodies and souls have to allow things to happen. You're arguing that the soul and concept specifically stated to be nine-dimensional loses all its basic properties the moment it enters either world and shrinks into a three-dimensional one, an idea that doesn't exactly match the statement simply saying it's nine-dimensional. I'm also not sure a three-dimensional soul can literally contain a concept that pre-dates the existence of the universe itself.

The rest is a tangent which is not relevant to what I’m saying.

Not really, you're raising the idea that an intangible nine-dimensional soul that also exists in an abstract state inside a demon which doesn't obey the laws of physics or even time, in a verse where demons frequently contain or create spaces larger inside than the outside of them (Nightmare, Leviathan, Fault, Mundus, Void Mundus) automatically has to be losing the nine-dimensional state it is specifically described as having, just because it can exist in a lower dimensional world. And I pointed out that scientific rules frequently get ignored by fiction. It's also not entirely known what dimensionality the human world has in DMC.

And I suppose it is also possible that all souls are rooted in the demon world, and humans turning into demons when they enter is the result of the part of their soul that was in the human world joining the rest of it and reverting to its true demonic state, something which now I think of it lines up eerily well with what Arius said about his plan to forcibly absorb the whole human world into the demon world. And it would fit, because the manga doesn't mention humans existing before the human world split off from the demon world, and humans and demons have the same type of soul except humans have a less powerful one with fewer extra features. That would fit with the humans having lost something, if they both came from the same place.

 

[Greenshifter]

Dante was also able to interact with a non-existent void, and frequently kills intangible enemies. His ability to interact with things isn't exactly typical. And if demons can return from having their concept erased and Dante can still kill them, he can clearly interact with things that would typically be impossible to interact with.

Irrelevant to my point.

Demons generally don't fully obey the laws of space and time, and I think other characters who are higher dimensional have been able to appear in lower dimensions in other verse's.

Yes by lowering their dimensionality or projecting themselves into the lower dimension by using an avatar.

And unlike the demon world itself, I don't recall any statements that the Soul is infinite in size in that dimensional scale.

Never stated that it is.

And who knows what properties the bodies and souls have to allow things to happen. You're arguing that the soul and concept specifically stated to be nine-dimensional loses all its basic properties the moment it enters either world and shrinks into a three-dimensional one, an idea that doesn't exactly match the statement simply saying it's nine-dimensional.

I can agree with a body having a higher-D soul in other verses, my argument is one of necessity since as you already stated, you aren't comfortable with souls being big enough to simultaneously exist in the human world and demon world either.

I'm also not sure a three-dimensional soul can literally contain a concept that pre-dates the existence of the universe itself

Why not?

Not really, you're raising the idea that an intangible nine-dimensional soul that also exists in an abstract state inside a demon which doesn't obey the laws of physics or even time, in a verse where demons frequently contain or create spaces larger inside than the outside of them (Nightmare, Leviathan, Fault, Mundus, Void Mundus) automatically has to be losing the nine-dimensional state it is specifically described as having, just because it can exist in a lower dimensional world. And I pointed out that scientific rules frequently get ignored by fiction. It's also not entirely known what dimensionality the human world has in DMC.

My argument is based on logic, which is necessary if you want to powerscale a character in the first place. The demon realm being accepted as higher-D than the human world which is accepted as 4D, combined with the demon world literally making up the rest of the cosmology. Necessitates that anything that doesn't fit in the human world (which btw would also be 4D sized on a metaphysical scale) is a part of the demon world.

And I suppose it is also possible that all souls are rooted in the demon world, and humans turning into demons when they enter is the result of the part of their soul that was in the human world joining the rest of it and reverting to its true demonic state, something which now I think of it lines up eerily well with what Arius said about his plan to forcibly absorb the whole human world into the demon world. And it would fit, because the manga doesn't mention humans existing before the human world split off from the demon world, and humans and demons have the same type of soul except humans have a less powerful one with fewer extra features. That would fit with the humans having lost something, if they both came from the same place.

That's the best argument you have made, but I mean "your entire soul is corrupted except this (arguably) insignificant part of it which then makes you human as a result" is kinda odd if you ask me (then again might be possible if you use my earlier argument (from another post) about insignificance, but I'd disagree with that off-site due to how I treat dimensions). Demons also want humans for blood so.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Yes by lowering their dimensionality or projecting themselves into the lower dimension by using an avatar.

Ah, so that's where the misunderstanding comes from. The demons that do project never leave the demon world, and Dante and his family can kill them regardless, so his ability to interact with their souls regardless of which world they're in is actually not new. He also sensed Nelo Angelo coming at him despite Nelo Angelo being in another dimension, so his perceptions and power clearly extend through dimensions as well.

The demon realm being accepted as higher-D than the human world which is accepted as 4D, combined with the demon world literally making up the rest of the cosmology. Necessitates that anything that doesn't fit in the human world (which btw would also be 4D sized on a metaphysical scale) is a part of the demon world.

The human world is accepted to be four-dimensional because it's the universe, but we aren't totally sure that's its limit, it's just that it's currently all we know for sure. It might be more than we realise. And as much as the "lol fiction" argument is generally a bit of a lazy argument, the idea that higher dimensional powers and the like can't exist in a lower dimension may be considered accurate scientifically, but a lot of tier 1 or partially higher dimensional characters already disobey that rule.

That's the best argument you have made, but I mean "your entire soul is corrupted except this (arguably) insignificant part of it which then makes you human as a result" is kinda odd if you ask me (then again might be possible if you use my earlier argument (from another post) about insignificance, but I'd disagree with that off-site due to how I treat dimensions). Demons also want humans for blood so.

It actually makes more sense than it may seem to at a glance, and this is coming from someone who wouldn't have thought so. A recurring theme throughout DMC is that humans and demons aren't that different, and we know they're completely compatible genetically, so maybe the part of a human soul that is altered by the human world is what makes them human, and maybe the difference is just that. And if it changes them to be human, maybe it's significant in some spiritual way.

 

[Greenshifter]

The human world is accepted to be four-dimensional because it's the universe, but we aren't totally sure that's its limit, it's just that it's currently all we know for sure. It might be more than we realise.

Sure but even if it's one dimension short of the demon world, my point still stands. And if it's equal to the demon world in dimensionality then I'd still complain about the demon world not being a considered a higher dimension anymore then.

And as much as the "lol fiction" argument is generally a bit of a lazy argument, the idea that higher dimensional powers and the like can't exist in a lower dimension may be considered accurate scientifically, but a lot of tier 1 or partially higher dimensional characters already disobey that rule.

I'm fine with higher-D powers existing in a lower-D world, I'm not fine with a higher-D object existing in a lower-D world without lowering its dimensionality, since that is flat out contradictory.

It actually makes more sense than it may seem to at a glance, and this is coming from someone who wouldn't have thought so. A recurring theme throughout DMC is that humans and demons aren't that different, and we know they're completely compatible genetically, so maybe the part of a human soul that is altered by the human world is what makes them human, and maybe the difference is just that. And if it changes them to be human, maybe it's significant in some spiritual way.

"And then the ray of light pierced their souls, purifying just a tiny splinter of their wicked existence. Turning the once evil hellspawn, into beings full of light." Hmm, quite poetic indeed.

 

[Random-Helper323]

"And then the ray of light pierced their souls, purifying just a tiny splinter of their wicked existence. Turning the once evil hellspawn, into beings full of light." Hmm, quite poetic indeed.

That's not exactly accurate. Only Dante has a romanticised view of humans, and he even admits that he has ideas that he knows are naive, such as his belief that all parents love their children unconditionally. If anything the overall theme is that demons can be good and humans can be bad. As Lady says in DMC3...

"Now I realise that there are humans as evil as any devil, as well as kind and compassionate demons in this universe."

This statement is referring to her father Arkham, who is originally human but more evil than most demons, and Dante, who is good. This is reiterated more clearly with demons such as Brad, Lucia, Trish, and a whole tribe of half-blood demons. And also humans such as Arius, Agnus, Sanctus, Chen, and the butler, who are all evil. There's also demons who despite being harsh genuinely care for their own, like Baul and Modeus.

I'm also not sure about the ray of light altering existing souls so much as altering new ones, it's hard to say. But that's trivia more than anything. Basically it's made pretty clear that humans and demons have both good and evil in them, although admittedly the good demon is a lot more rare than the evil human.

Edit: It's also occurred to me that the human world isn't a typical world, it's technically still part of the demon world, in a sense, just forcibly seperated from it. Could it be possible for a dimension to be four-dimensional physically but still somehow higher dimensional in a metaphysical sense, given its original nature? Demons do frequently ignore basic rules of science on the regular after all, and as I said earlier, several demons contain things that are larger than the demon itself, the easiest example being Leviathan whose stomach is visibly larger inside than the creature itself. The Saviour and Nightmare do this too.

 

[Greenshifter]

You could have just said nice bit of poetry there Green, anyways understood, it's not as simple as demons bad, humans good.

It's also occurred to me that the human world isn't a typical world, it's technically still part of the demon world, in a sense, just forcibly seperated from it. Could it be possible for a dimension to be four-dimensional physically but still somehow higher dimensional in a metaphysical sense, given its original nature?

It is possible I suppose, however in this case it'd just overlap with the metaphysical aspect of the demon world.

 

[Random-Helper323]

You could have just said nice bit of poetry there Green,

Yeah, sorry, it is an inventive way of describing it.

anyways understood, it's not as simple as demons bad, humans good.

Exactly. In fact, Arkham is arguably the most evil character aside from perhaps Mundus and Argosax, and arguably Sid, and meanwhile Brad is more humane than the vast majority of humans. The whole point of that episode in the anime is that Brad is a good demon surrounded by humans who are lesser than him, starting with the butler who is evil, and then Angelina's father who is abusive towards his daughter. Her father's desire to kill Brad so Brad won't marry his daughter is also noteworthy.

While good demons are rare, DMC doesn't try to pretend evil humans don't exist. Even Lady is immoral at best, arguably bad, attempting to murder Dante and then manipulating him into doing her job for her.

It is possible I suppose, however in this case it'd just overlap with the metaphysical aspect of the demon world.

It is complicated, and as I said above, demons can also contain spaces significantly larger than their own body, so cramming something larger into something smaller, including if that something smaller is themselves, is something that demons frequently do despite it being impossible scientifically.

 

[Greenshifter]

The whole point of that episode in the anime is that Brad is a good demon surrounded by humans who are lesser than him, starting with the butler who is evil, and then Angelina's father who is abusive towards his daughter. Her father's desire to kill Brad so Brad won't marry his daughter is also noteworthy.

This is hilarious to me and you'll never find out why.

It is complicated, and as I said above, demons can also contain spaces significantly larger than their own body, so cramming something larger into something smaller, including if that something smaller is themselves, is something that demons frequently do despite it being impossible scientifically.

Yeah, but in this case it'd just come down to cramming a 9D soul into a 4D world, making it smaller in the process. Which is like my point. Usually when stuff like this happens in fiction, the character just serves as a gateway to their personal realm.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Yeah, but in this case it'd just come down to cramming a 9D soul into a 4D world, making it smaller in the process. Which is like my point. Usually when stuff like this happens in fiction, the character just serves as a gateway to their personal realm.

Higher-dimensional entities existing in lower planes of reality is a common occurrence in fiction, even if it doesn't make sense. The best example is any Archetypal demon from Megami Tensei. Despite the fact they exist in an ontological state completely transcendent of dimensions entirely, they're still able to exist in lower realities without needing to lower their dimensionality.

 

[Greenshifter]

Sounds like they're using an avatar or that they're not actually lower realities on a metaphysical level.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Sounds like they're using an avatar or that they're not actually lower realities on a metaphysical level.

A handful of demons do utilize avatars, but most of them simply exist in their true forms. Lucifer and Merkabah, both of whom are Archetypal demons with Type 2 BDE, are capable of residing in Assiah (the 4D human world).

 

[Greenshifter]

A handful of demons do utilize avatars, but most of them simply exist in their true forms. Lucifer and Merkabah, both of whom are Archetypal demons with Type 2 BDE, are capable of residing in Assiah (the 4D human world).

Then it seems to me that what you see of them is not all that they are, because if it is, it'd contradict their BDE.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Then it seems to me that what you see of them is not all that they are, because if it is, it'd contradict their BDE.

Except there is absolutely no evidence of this from either a lore or story perspective. I agree that it doesn't make sense logically, but VS Wiki allows for those types of contradictions. There are a multitude of verses that depict higher-dimensional characters existing in lower planes of reality without their ontological position being adjusted.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Not really, it's supposed to be a higher dimension compared to all things with souls.

Nice headcanon. It is never said it is a higher dimension compared to souls.

There are always interpretations

"this ball is blue but what if it is green tho"

That's the kind of "interpretations" you are trying to pull here which also is literally contradicted by the text. You can't interpret something when its meaning is crystal clear.

I mean I agree that the soul is 9D when it is born. Also my bad in writing "comes from", but that doesn't really change my point.

Same thing we already went over. The soul doesn't stop being 9D because it goes to another place.

Alright so lemme make it clear to you what I mean, there are 2 scenarios:
1) There is a specific realm in the 9th dimension where the souls are born and where they return to upon "death", this means that some demons' souls never leave this realm during their lifespan if they spawn in just the right place and other demons' souls constantly enter and leave this realm (while still in their original state) while they're hunting or whatever. Which contradicts the statement.
2) The entire 9th dimension is where the souls are born and where they return to upon "death", this has more backing since I presume there are infinite demons and there would thus need to be infinite space to hold all those souls (and the scan never talks about a realm in the 9th dimension either). This means that every demon or human who exists contradicts the statement under your interpretation, since their souls never leave the higher dimension.

Then from this I conclude that the only way to make the statement work is to deduce that souls lower their dimensionality, it being stated that all humans and demons have a soul is fine and all, but later context tells us that the soul lowers its dimensionality.

For starters there is no "original state", never in the scans is such thing ever implied, second there is no contradiction there and I honestly can't understand where you think its one.

Okay I noticed that all of this comes from you literally not knowing what happened in the upgrade thread Sevil made so you should go read that. We assume the 9 dimensional realm is 9 dimensional because a basic 9 dimensional form is "born" and returns there, easy logic.

Second humans live in the human world, demons can exist in the human world with some even being sealed there. Another thing relevant here is that humans themselves also have this 9D soul, not some unknown thing that is never alluded or mentioned.

There is no context for this "lowering dimensionality" bs that you are talking about, its not a thing. No scan ever mentioned, hinted or even alluded that in any way. You think that because it leaves chaos it has to become smaller or something when that isn't the case.

Not what I meant, I asked how demons spawning as souls works, is it the same as regular demon spawning?

I'm sorry but the **** you are talking about? This is what I meant when I said you don't even know the reasons behind the upgrade.

Demons are just demons, the "physical" existences you see are like puppets to them, avatars if you will. Just suits to do shit but they are not physical existences. I have talked about it before but Arkham straight says how they can only be classified as "living" and/or "truths". Their bodies originally were given form by the demon world but they are only souls and as Akrham once again says they mold themselves after their names. This is the information the soul contains that lets them have a physical existence.

"Mxyzptlk is a fundamental fifth-dimensional being, he originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond time." Under your interpretation Mxy would always be 5D, even when on earth, you got my point?

Of course he is a 5D being, just because he is in a 3D world it doesn't stop his ass from being 5D. If the characters can only perceive a 3D representation of him that's different. Now idk about DC but if there is some weird ass context for him being a 3D imp when in the 3D world then that's context and explanations provided in the story itself. DMC doesn't have that, souls are 9D and that's all there is to it whether you like it or not.

 

[Greenshifter]

Except there is absolutely no evidence of this from either a lore or story perspective. I agree that it doesn't make sense logically, but VS Wiki allows for those types of contradictions. There are a multitude of verses that depict higher-dimensional characters existing in lower planes of reality without their ontological position being adjusted.

Yeah idk that's like some logic manipulation or some stuff lol. Don't know SMT all that well so I'm afraid I can't delve into the specifics here.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Yeah idk that's like some logic manipulation or some stuff lol. Don't know SMT all that well so I'm afraid I can't delve into the specifics here.

It's not logic manipulation, or any power, for that matter. Characters can operate in lower dimensions without changing their own dimensionality. The wiki accepts this.

 

[Greenshifter]

Nice headcanon. It is never said it is a higher dimension compared to souls.

I said all things WITH souls, granted considering all demons are essentially just souls (as you explained later) the distinction to me is pretty much insignificant at this point. If it's not a higher dimension in relation to all things with souls, then in relation to what is it? (I'll come back to this in my summary)

That's the kind of "interpretations" you are trying to pull here which also is literally contradicted by the text.

Yeah it's not, at worst my interpretation is unsupported by the text, not contradicted by it.

For starters there is no "original state"

I wrote that to make it clear that in my interpretation demons can also go to where the soul is born while they are alive, but at least the soul ain't 9D when they're doing so in my interpretation.

second there is no contradiction there and I honestly can't understand where you think its one.

I'm asserting that certain souls never leave the place where they are born or frequently return to it without dying and then gathering evidence to prove this... and in the worst case scenario that I laid out, ALL souls never leave the place where they are born because they're all still somewhere in the 9th dimension.

Okay I noticed that all of this comes from you literally not knowing what happened in the upgrade thread Sevil made so you should go read that. We assume the 9 dimensional realm is 9 dimensional because a basic 9 dimensional form is "born" and returns there, easy logic.

Second humans live in the human world, demons can exist in the human world with some even being sealed there. Another thing relevant here is that humans themselves also have this 9D soul, not some unknown thing that is never alluded or mentioned.

Yeah I got all that and never claimed otherwise.

There is no context for this "lowering dimensionality" bs that you are talking about, its not a thing. No scan ever mentioned, hinted or even alluded that in any way. You think that because it leaves chaos it has to become smaller or something when that isn't the case.

Thank you for repeating your premise for the 10th time, now if you don't understand where I see the contradiction either ask more questions to get what I mean or get someone in here who does understand what I'm saying, perhaps Sevil since he's pretty good with dimensional shizz. Granted, it might not be necessary due to my conversation with the other guy who brought up a bunch of good points.

I'm sorry but the **** you are talking about? This is what I meant when I said you don't even know the reasons behind the upgrade.

IIRC there are like literal souls that Dante can fight in DMC, like no body at all, but maybe I'm misremembering. I was asking how those free-roaming souls came to be and why they don't have a body. But it doesn't matter anymore, you stated after this that every demon is 9D essentially (and also sees itself as being 9D, which is the most important part), meaning that returning to a higher dimension from their perspective would either be 10D or they lower their dimensionality beforehand, your call, but I'm pretty sure the latter makes more sense than the former.

Of course he is a 5D being, just because he is in a 3D world it doesn't stop his ass from being 5D. If the characters can only perceive a 3D representation of him that's different. Now idk about DC but if there is some weird ass context for him being a 3D imp when in the 3D world then that's context and explanations provided in the story itself. DMC doesn't have that, souls are 9D and that's all there is to it whether you like it or not.

Well yeah DC is complicated and Mxy is probably not the best example for this, but "returning to the 5th dimension beyond time" implies that he left that dimension in the first place and the only way for him to have done that (in a very simplistic view of the cosmology) is by lowering his dimensionality.

Anyways to summarize my and Random-Helper323's argument:

My argument: The soul leaves a higher dimension and returns to it after its host dies. This dimension is defined as being higher than every being who's soul goes through the samsara cycle, since the statement applies to all those beings. Incidentally a demon is actually just a soul, meaning that since demons go through the samsara cycle, this higher dimension is higher dimensional than a soul. This means that soul either originate from and return to the 10th dimension, or that souls lower their dimensionality when leaving the 9th dimension. I think the latter makes more sense. To further support this point, humans' souls becomes corrupted when they enter the demon world, yet if humans' souls are always 9D then they will always be partially in the demon world, yet they are seemingly not corrupted.

Random-Helper's counterargument: Generally speaking only humans go through the Samsara cycle, demons' souls either gets absorbed or destroyed when they are killed by other demons. "Returning to a higher dimension" means that souls go from being partially in the demon world to completely in the demon world. With the demon world being a higher dimension compared to humans. There is very little difference between humans and demons and despite only an insignificant part of a human's soul being inside of the human world, it makes all the difference between human and demon.

 

[Greenshifter]

It's not logic manipulation, or any power, for that matter. Characters can operate in lower dimensions without changing their own dimensionality. The wiki accepts this.

These characters would passively defy logic then. (assuming you meant "live" instead of "operate").

 

[Lukewoesal007]

These characters would passively defy logic then. (assuming you meant "live" instead of "operate").

Law Manipulation is given to characters who have specific feats of bending (or otherwise controlling) the universal rules that govern the reality in which they reside. We do not give Law Manipulation to characters who don't abide entirely the logic of our world. Should we give Law Manipulation to every character who doesn't perfectly follow the law of conservation of mass? Should we give Law Manipulation to characters with significant differences between their AP and Durability because they're violating Newton's Third Law? My point is that a character having illogical properties (from the perspective of our reality) doesn't inherently get Law Manipulation.

 

[Greenshifter]

I never said it'd give law manipulation, it'd give resistance to logic manipulation and maybe some other stuff, who knows. Illogical properties from the perspective of our reality isn't a problem, it's a problem when they have illogical properties from the perspective of their own reality. Which "being higher-D while living in a lower-D world" would fall under since there is no sensical explanation for it even in-verse. I'm actually doubtful such a thing actually exists in documented fiction though and might just be the result of people interpreting it badly or it happening in a near-unscalable verse such as Suggsverse.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I never said it'd give law manipulation, it'd give resistance to logic manipulation and maybe some other stuff, who knows.

There is no such power as "Logic Manipulation".

Illogical properties from the perspective of our reality isn't a problem, it's a problem when they have illogical properties from the perspective of their own reality. Which "being higher-D while living in a lower-D world" would fall under since there is no sensical explanation for it even in-verse.

Both Megami Tensei and Devil May Cry make it explicitly clear that both versions of their demons function under completely different laws and physics than the human world.

From the Demon Physiology page:

• Physics Manipulation: Demons live in the Demon World, where the laws of physics are different from the Human World.[17]
• Gravity Manipulation: Demons live in the Demon World, where the laws of gravity are different from the Human World.[6]
• Law Manipulation: Demons came from the Demon World, a place that has different laws that exist upon reality compared to the Human World and when they decide to step into the Human World, they also don't need to follow the laws that exist upon that reality[18].

From the Cognitive Physiology page:

• Resistance to Physics Manipulation and Matter Manipulation: Demons are composed of Magnetite, an energy substance derived from human thoughts, which is also unbound by the laws of physics[5], followed by Shadows, who are constructed from a material that voids physics[18], granting immunity to anything that abides by it[19]. Mirages serve as no objection to the rule[17].

Even though both verses portray higher-dimensional entities as being infinitely larger than lower dimensions, that rule wouldn't necessarily apply to the demons anyway.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The part about only humans fitting the Samsara Cycle is how it seems to me, and the dimension being higher dimensional in relation to humans rather than demons, but the part about the souls being in both worlds is just a thought, and it is a possibility, but there's also the possibility that the human world has metaphysical properties that allow it to contain 9D souls, and at least one other verse (one which is somewhat related to DMC) which has higher dimensional beings operate in lower dimensional areas, and demons which we already know contain things bigger than themselves, in addition to demons not having to obey the laws of physics. And even without that it's still possible that the human souls all reside in both worlds.