About Fujitora's meteors

[Elizhaa]

Can't help but notice that neither of the staff members have given a reason for why they think they should be used for scaling.

We used meteor feats for Powerscaling when the feats are uncontradicted like with Fairy Tail Irene's case, I see no reason why we should ma ake special exception for One Piece when it could fit the same criteria, to be honest.

I also agree with Antvasima's and Catala Vs's points about the meteors.

 

[Damage3245]

Meteor feats make sense for powerscaling when you have someone tanking a meteor, or creating a meteor, or pulling a meteor down.

And if the calc was for 'the amount of energy used to pull down the meteor' I would agree with you that it is applicable.

But this isn't a calc for that; it's a calc for the amount of energy the meteor has when it hits the ground; which nobody directly scales to.

EDIT: Since you brought up Fairy Tail; Erza is High 6-C for destroying the meteor which makes sense.

For Irene, her AP should be determined by how much energy is required to summon the meteor, not how much destruction the meteor causes when landing.

So really this is just a case of another verse having a similar problem.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

You should do what Calaca did above, stop arguing and let people decide. At this point you're just repeating your same argument.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rin; this is a Staff only thread, I've had to request a couple of other people to stop posting as well so far.

I feel that it is important to bring up my arguments again because some of them aren't being addressed.

 

[Antvasima]

Should the meteorite calculation be redone to account for the speed at which it descended?

 

[Damage3245]

I can try asking a few calc group members if there is a way to calculate how much energy Fujitora himself put into it; but there's a lot of unknown variables.

The best compromise I can think of; until we get more information to work with, is to scale the Top Tiers to Zunisha and set aside the meteor calc for now.

 

[Antvasima]

Given that it would give the same result for the tiering, and I do not have the time to continue to argue about this, I suppose that we might have to stick with a compromise for the time being.

 

[The_Calaca]

I don't see the point in using the second option while the staff members are agreeing with the scaling. The only member who disagreed isn't sure about that. Plus, in every previous thread it was agreed as well and you ignored it several times. You should stop doing that.

 

[Damage3245]

If I think something is definitely wrong then I'm not going to ignore it.

You are treating the impact of the meteor hitting the ground as Fujitora's own power. That's what I disagree with.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I'm fine with scaling them to the meteorite aswell

 

[Damage3245]

I'm fine with scaling them to the meteorite aswell

Is it okay if I ask why?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Calaca Seems to make the most convincing arguments IMO.

specifically how we treat meteorite scaling...

so them scaling in context Doesn't seem like a big deal.

The only Problem I do see, and this could entirely be based on me lacking context is that Calaca's problem argument in his OP could easily meet the criteria for Outlier, however like I said I don't have the full context so I'm basing everything on the context that's provided to me in the thread and from that it seems to be logically sound.

 

[Damage3245]

Scaling meteors in context is fine; if somebody tanked/overpowered/destroyed the meteor you could scale directly or if summoning meteors required a certain level of Chakra you could scale indirectly to someone with comparable levels of Chakra (as an example).

What I'm saying is there isn't enough basis to directly scale anyone to the meteors.

At best you could get a Likely scaling from them, saying that somebody should be comparable in theory but it is unable to be proven yet.

 

[The_Calaca]

I don't get the difference between that case and Issho's at all. I mean, is there any evidence that, for example, Madara is really creating the meteor and pulling it at such speeds?

 

[Damage3245]

Madara's is specifically stated to be different to his regular AP:

Attack Potency: At least Mountain level+ (Stronger than when he was alive), Small Country level with Tengai Shinsei

So his ordinary fighting power doesn't scale to it, and people that fight him on an ordinary level don't scale to it.

As far as I'm aware, nobody scales directly to Madara's meteors.

To say that it makes no sense for Fujitora to be capable of something that other Admirals don't directly scale to, it arguing from disbelief. You'd need to provide evidence that they are capable of matching his calced meteors.

 

[M3X_2.0]

We does not scale Madara directly to Tengai Shinsei because he dooesnt create them. Otherwise, we scale all CTs to his normal AP because he create and manipulate the meteors.

I mean, if Fujitora creates the meteors maybe is fine to scale

 

[Damage3245]

We does not scale Madara directly to Tengai Shinsei because he dooesnt create them. Otherwise, we scale all CTs to his normal AP because he create and manipulate the meteors.
I mean, if Fujitora creates the meteors maybe is fine to scale

Fujitora does not create the meteors.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Then I am with you. But here is staff only, just wanted to clarify about the meteors in Naruto

 

[Damage3245]

Understood. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[CinCameron20]

I'm hoping in here:

1) In regards to the bird-cage @Damage: you and I are at a disagreement in regards to how many times the meteorite was cut (despite this topic being brought up in the past and later being accepted for it being cut by thousands of threads due to inconsistencies in the art and also how it wouldn't make sense for the threads to be hundreds of meters apart from eachother to result in 7 pieces being forms from cutting one meteorite... on top of several other reasons).

If anything the Bird-cage either scales based on the accepted ratio we used (giving it the High 7-A rating, iirc), or if you want to argue the legitimacy of the feat in the anime, it fully scales to the bird-cage as the meteorite comes to a complete stop upon hitting the cage before being slashed apart by the cage.

• PS, I'm still wondering why we don't scale Bird-cage to Doflamingo when he created it: once from his own hands in a flash-back, and once from his Black-knight, which is no stronger than him. It came directly from himself with no preparation, so why would he use weaker threads in combat?

2) We don't know the range of Fujitora's attacks, but to assume that he could, at any time, pull down a meteorite large enough to result in Island level KE, he would be able to one-shot the likes of the 3 Admirals, Blackbeard, Big Mom(?), Shanks(?), and others of this level. And again, one of Doflamingo's abilities (that he created on the fly) stopped the meteorites head-on. Are we now going to argue that a creation of Doflamingo's is above the likes of Aokiji, Akainu, and Whitebeard despite the contrary being argued and agreed upon here multiple times? Not to mention, if we will discuss WB and Akainu having more powerful DFs than Doflamingo's, that automatically puts them above Bird-Cage, since that comes straight from Doflamingo's body and it is certainly not an awakening technique (unless confirmed otherwise)

• I'm totally down to have Fujitora's personal AP separate from his Meteorite, but people probably wouldn't agree that Doflamingo > Fujitora outright. IIRC, the only reason people disagreed with me regarding Doflamingo's cage being above Fujitora is because that would imply Doflamingo > an Admiral despite Fujitora being displayed struggling against Gear 3rd Luffy, unable to stop the Bird-cage on his own, his meteorites being destroyed by the Bird-Cage, and Doflamingo openly threatening to kill him on the spot. Nothing supports Fujitora being at the same level as the previous generation of Admirals, or a Yonko. We saw him struggle to capture Law, and Luffy with just Gear 3rd was notably taxing for him--considering he was out of breath by the time the skirmish was interrupted.

(Note: We should stick to never, ever using the anime for discussing feats from the manga for One Piece as they contradict eachother. We already went into full detail in another thread why we don't use the anime due to the inconsistencies, censorship, filler, and personality/dialogue changes that affect each scene.)

 

[Damage3245]

Cin, this is a staff discussion thread, and the Birdcage is a separate topic.

But I will say this;

Your second point makes no sense. Nobody is arguing that Doflamingo's Birdcage is above the likes of Akainu or Whiteboard.

Don't use a Strawman Argument.

 

[The_Calaca]

I read through the whole thread again because I lost track with it and here are some arguments I'd like to bring despite my initial standing for not arguing anymore and wait for the votes.

We don't know for sure if the meteors are accelerating over time with Surface Escape Velocity. It's highly possible that Issho manipulates the meteors as well considering he can exert gravity in any direction. He could be accelerating the meteor with such a high gravity acceleration that'd become the SEV irrelevant. We see Law and Doffy struggling to avoid the meteor, like they had no time to dodge despite seeing the meteor from kilometers a far. The amount of energy he needs to drop a meteor down is unquantifiable after all, since not only requires the assumption to know from where is the meteor coming from but speed as well, and I see more reasons to believe that said meteors are faster than SEV. I previously said that I'd prefer to not rely on this assumption, but considering you're doing the same thing I don't see any reason as to why I shouldn't.

If Fujitora has the ability to pull down any meteor he'd like anytime that means he has a good destructive power. It's like a guy with a bazooka in a world with no guns but at the same time he isn't the strongest in said world.

Fuji's meteors fails for different reasons, yes, but that's more proof that he isn't the strongest even with his meteors. Law cut one with hax and Doffy cut half of it, even Issho stopped the other half. Jack's fight was off-screen, we can't use that as an argument because we don't know if Issho actually used a meteor.

Issho doesn't create the meteors, I concede, but those are the direct result of his DF powers. SEV isn't an argument since a) we're the ones giving the meteors a speed, not the author and b) Issho is likely exerting more acceleration than that. This isn't the same as pushing a boulder, that's a LS feat which creates the feat but I digress. This is something Issho does in mid-combat everytime, and with that in mind he'd defeat everyone hands down. Dodging isn't a viable argument since even characters comparable to him are blocks the meteors instead of dodging them (see Doffy and Law) when they'd have a lot of time to do so.

To this point I'm just tired, you use much more assumptions and ignores the WoG cherry picking them to help your case here.

@Shadowbokunohero

Sorry for not replying you before, but no. It's not an outlier unless the result is something stupid like Continent level without any other feats barely close.

 

[Damage3245]

The Word of God isn't as explicit as you present it to be.

Being the most destructive Paramecia Devil Fruit - a statement made way before Fujitora's debut in the series - is vague precisely because it is such a general statement.

Who decides that the destructive value of Fujitora's meteors count as the destructive power of his Devil Fruit? I haven't seen anything from Oda regarding that; it looks like we're just inferring that ourselves.

Even if did count as that, creating an earthquake capable of making tsunamis that can flatten islands can be considered more destructive than dropping a meteor of a certain size.

Akainu's statement on the link you provided doesn't specify whether Akainu's DF is the strongest or if there are others as strong as it.

I'll note that we don't actually have access to the original statement itself, just that summary in the picture you've linked.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Calaca makes sense. We should just proceed with the revisions.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm disappointed by that - it seriously does not match the standards for powerscaling in my opinon - but if you want to discuss who precisely should scale I will discuss that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you said that we might get some other 6-C scaling soon, so at that point we could probably scale from that instead if you prefer.

 

[Damage3245]

Currently we have Kaido scaling from a 6-C calc for Zunisha (which then goes on to provide 6-C scaling for all other 6-C characters) which isn't optimal.

I'm currently working on several calcs for Whitebeard, a couple of which are likely to be 6-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Sorry in advance for this non-staff post but why has not one of the staff members actually contributed to the discusion? I just see "I agree with X/X makes sense" without addressing details nor Y's argumnets. :S

 

[Antvasima]

The staff are recurrently busy with many tasks at once.

 

[The_Calaca]

• We add a "Possibly" for characters that should scale after the rating. I.e. X character is High 7-A, possibly 6-C.

Let's not forget this was suggested to keep both options.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Wow, this issue sounds a lot like the one Fairy Tail had with Scaling characters to High 6-B, that being that the topic was brought up many times, people didn't agree and therefore this issue just kept getting heated, therefore I'm down with the compromise strategy, since it worked for Fairy Tail

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage3245

Have you had any time to work on the Whitebeard calcs?

@Mitch

You mean scale the god-tiers from Zunisha instead?

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima, I'm over halfway done on the Whitebeard calcs. Should have the blog posted today.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.