A Stake Through the Heart - A Hellsing Downgrade Thread

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright, since I have a well known reputation regarding downgrades, let me start off by saying that I ******* love Hellsing, and have read it multiple times. Alucard is one of my favorite characters of all time, so let it be known that I take no pleasure in having to do this. I believe Hellsing as it stands now is pretty wanked, so I’m gonna start by tackling one of the bigger issues with the verse; Blood as concepts/information.

Type 3 CM stems from this set of scans. To begin, let’s establish something that will be very important in discussing what these scans actually mean in context: To drink someone’s blood as a vampire is to have total mental control over them (either by turning them into a ghoul or another vampire). This already puts the third scan in a new light; Integra is not saying that blood contains the literal existence of a person. Rather, Seras, due to having her blood drunk by Alucard, was formerly under his control (hence the mentions of her belonging to Alucard, as well as how blood is a tool of enslavement). To put it simply, the fact that drinking blood is “taking all that someone is” is not in reference to their concept or entire state of existence, but rather about how you quite literally belong to whoever drinks your blood. That said, the third scan in a broader context is merely in reference to Alucard’s soul reserves and how he can summon them in Level 0; In this state, they’re merely an extension of Alucard’s own being, so Integra’s statement is much more likely referring to that as well, rather than an unrelated tangent of “blood is concepts”.

So that also helps clear up the second scan; When the Major is talking about the “unification of minds”, it’s natural to assume that he’s talking about the mental link vampires share with their victims. The first scan is also, funnily enough, exclusively about blood’s relation to the mind and soul, and has nothing even resembling concepts at all. The meaning of both of these scans becomes even more apparent when we see the context immediately before the first scan, wherein Seras’ mind has effectively merged with Pip’s after she drank his blood, making it so Zorin couldn’t use her mindhax on her anymore (supported by Pip staying in her head afterwards). At that point, all we’re looking at is the “the essence of the vampire” statement, which is extremely weak on its own.

Now for type 2 info, and this is a lot more simple. Alucard drinks Tubalcain’s blood, and says he’ll have him tell him everything with his life. That’s it. Notably, this isn’t really information, as Alucard basically says he gathered Tubalcain’s thoughts (which aligns with the other evidence of blood being linked to the mind). There’s also the issue of how this “information” has no indication of governing reality on any level (which is a hard requirement for type 2 info). As an aside, the idea that drinking blood grants knowledge seems a little inconsistent, as Alucard had no notable knowledge about the Millennium group’s reformation even after absorbing Luke Valentine (which he confirms here).

As for Schrodinger… I straight up couldn’t find a source for him being made of information. The stuff about him being made of thoughts is all good and well, but I can’t even comprehend what would make him qualify for fundamental information.

So aside from nuking concept/info hax, what else does this entail? Mainly, post-Schrodinger Alucard loses his HGR and goes down to MGR since it stems from regenerating his soul/blood.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Type 3 CM stems from this set of scans. To begin, let’s establish something that will be very important in discussing what these scans actually mean in context: To drink someone’s blood as a vampire is to have total mental control over them (either by turning them into a ghoul or another vampire). This already puts the third scan in a new light; Integra is not saying that blood contains the literal existence of a person. Rather, Seras, due to having her blood drunk by Alucard, was formerly under his control (hence the mentions of her belonging to Alucard, as well as how blood is a tool of enslavement). To put it simply, the fact that drinking blood is “taking all that someone is” is not in reference to their concept or entire state of existence, but rather about how you quite literally belong to whoever drinks your blood. That said, the third scan is merely in reference to Alucard’s soul reserves and how he can summon them in Level 0; In this state, they’re merely an extension of Alucard’s own being, so Integra’s statement is much more likely referring to that as well, rather than an unrelated tangent of “blood is concepts”.

So that also helps clear up the second scan; When the Major is talking about the “unification of minds”, it’s natural to assume that he’s talking about the mental link vampires share with their victims. The first scan is also, funnily enough, exclusively about blood’s relation to the mind and soul, and has nothing even resembling concepts at all. The meaning of both of these scans becomes even more apparent when we see the context immediately before the first scan, wherein Seras’ mind has effectively merged with Pip’s after she drank his blood, making it so Zorin couldn’t use her mindhax on her anymore (supported by Pip staying in her head afterwards). At that point, all we’re looking at is the “the essence of the vampire” statement, which is extremely weak on its own.

Discord that CM type 3 removal by the following:

The Major says it's a fusion of soul and life in exchange for blood (referring to the vampire thing of sucking souls for blood)

He also says that having one's soul and life united and synthesized with other people's is the essence of a vampire.

And when Alucard absorbs the cat, the Major says: "He sucked the life out of Warrant Officer Schorodinger. That is, he embodied Schrodinger's nature."

This goes hand in hand with the series, as when Alucard absorbed the cat, he literally absorbed the cat's abstract and paradoxical nature. And for the other souls that Alucard had, absorbing a soul comes with that person's appearance, their memories, their powers, and by the cat even the very nature of their type of existence.

The scans I'm taking are from official publications in Portuguese (Brazil) that I have at home.

Now for type 2 info, and this is a lot more simple. Alucard drinks Tubalcain’s blood, and says he’ll have him tell him everything with his life. That’s it. Notably, this isn’t really information, as Alucard outright says he gathered Tubalcain’s thoughts (which aligns with the other evidence of blood being linked to the mind). There’s also the issue of how this “information” has no indication of governing reality on any level (which is a hard requirement for type 2 info). As an aside, the idea that drinking blood grants knowledge seems a little inconsistent, as Alucard had no notable knowledge about the Millennium group’s reformation even after absorbing Luke Valentine (which he confirms here).

As for Schrodinger… I straight up couldn’t find a source for him being made of information. The stuff about him being made of thoughts is all good and well, but I can’t even comprehend what would make him qualify for fundamental information.

So aside from nuking concept/info hax, what else does this entail? Mainly, post-Schrodinger Alucard loses his HGR and goes down to MGR since it stems from regenerating his soul/blood.

As for that, I agree. I understand Type 1, but 2?

Literally the only justification is the cat thing, but it is never said that he is made of information (I doubt the wiki accepts that thoughts = information) nor that they are fundamental to reality.

 

[Georredannea15]

Mehhh... I don't agree with Type 3 CM for now.

For type 2 info I'm neutral for now.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Discord that will give CM type 3 removal by the following:

The Major says it's a fusion of soul and life in exchange for blood (referring to the vampire thing of sucking souls for blood)

He also says that having one's soul and life united and synthesized with other people's is the essence of a vampire.

And when Alucard absorbs the cat, the Major says: "He sucked the life out of Warrant Officer Schorodinger. That is, he embodied Schrodinger's nature."

This goes hand in hand with the series, as when Alucard absorbed the cat, he literally absorbed the cat's abstract and paradoxical nature. And for the other souls that Alucard had, absorbing a soul comes with that person's appearance, their memories, their powers, and by the cat even the very nature of their type of existence.

The scans I'm taking are from official publications in Portuguese (Brazil) that I have at home.

Well I would like to see the english scans if possible, since idk the exact chapter they're from when they're cropped like that. However, I know for a fact that I covered the second scan, talking about how it's about the fusion of minds between a vampire and their victim, like Seras and Pip. Saying that you sucked the life out of someone isn't supportive of concept hax either.

To be blunt, the only thing here that resembles concept hax would be the embodying Schrodinger's nature bit, and that's just in reference to how he gained access to Schrodinger's powers and paradoxical state of being after absorbing him, much like he gains other people's powers after absorbing them. It's just that Schrodinger's nature already is his power.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Well I would like to see the english scans if possible, since idk the exact chapter they're from when they're cropped like that. However, I know for a fact that I covered the second scan, talking about how it's about the fusion of minds between a vampire and their victim, like Seras and Pip. Saying that you sucked the life out of someone isn't supportive of concept hax either.

To be blunt, the only thing here that resembles concept hax would be the embodying Schrodinger's nature bit, and that's just in reference to how he gained access to Schrodinger's powers and paradoxical state of being after absorbing him, much like he gains other people's powers after absorbing them. It's just that Schrodinger's nature already is his power.

The "unified minds" part does not exist in the official translation I have.

It's literally that part

He also says that having one's soul and life united and synthesized with other people's is the essence of a vampire.

Where to say that having the soul and lives unified and synthesized is the essence of a vampire.

Also, even if it had that part? What matters? Literally sucking other people's blood embodies all of nature as Major himself speaks.

Be it life, soul, powers or nature of existence.

Besides, it's never said "Blood sucking makes you have the person's powers and stuff like that"

"Powers" in this form is never quoted.

It is always life, soul or nature. Even when the Major mentions the cat thing he doesn't say that Alucard embodied his powers but his nature.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The "unified minds" part does not exist in the official translation I have.

Well then that's a problem, because this wiki tends to use the english translations of manga, and no english translation I've seen is supporting what you're claiming (here's a different one, from the version of the manga I've been reading).

 

[LordGinSama]

I'll reply to this load of shit tomorrow. I'm quite busy right now but I very much don't appreciate the smug, condescending tone of the OP whilst also providing blatant information which I'll address later.



Word for advice for the OP. Don't act as if you know everything whenever literally half of what you've said thus far is incorrect.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

?????

bro what the **** are you talking about

 

[LordGinSama]

Literally my guy isn't even using the official scans lmfao. Like you do realize you using poor quality scans, one of which is in another language which you haven't even provided a translation for should speak magnitudes of the OP's knowledge on the verse.


We use Dark Horse translations, not anything else.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

one of which is in another language which you haven't even provided a translation for

They're literally all in english, are you ******* kidding me right now?

 

[Theglassman12]

@LordGinSama Tone down the aggressive behavior, there's like no need for this when you can just refute Fuji's points.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyways, the very least you could do is tell me where I can get the Dark Horse translations online, since I can't seem to find those.

 

[Chariot190]

Well then that's a problem, because this wiki tends to use the english translations of manga, and no english translation I've seen is supporting what you're claiming (here's a different one, from the version of the manga I've been reading).

We use whatever is most accurate to the original medium (Like obviously Japanese for Dragon Ball would supersede Viz, but English Batman comics have higher priority than German ones), if not outright that medium itself, it's just most tend to use English because that's what most speak here and usually it's not a big enough deal to split hairs over it.

But, if there's a discrepancy between English and whatever he has, you might have to hunt down the raws to see which one is more accurate, if not just go ahead and use the raws itself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We use whatever is most accurate to the original medium (Like obviously Japanese for Dragon Ball would supersede Viz, but English Batman comics have higher priority than German ones), if not outright that medium itself, it's just most tend to use English because that's what most speak here and usually it's not a big enough deal to split hairs over it.

But, if there's a discrepancy between English and whatever he has, you might have to hunt down the raws to see which one is more accurate, if not just go ahead and use the raws itself.

I don't have an issue with tracking down raws if it comes to that, but since Gin has said that the Dark Horse translations are what's being used I'll at least wait and see if he'll tell me where I can get those online (since I can't really shell out $50 rn).

 

[Deceived3596]

Following, will provide my opinion when all the evidence has been presented by both sides.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Crabwhale]

I'll wait for what Gin has to say on this, though I would like to double down on Glass' comment that he should tone down the insults. Kinda makes it hard to debate in good faith if you come into a thread blasting.

Also to my knowledge the Dark Horse version is up on MangaSee, though you didn't hear the from wink wink nudge nudge.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

We use whatever is most accurate to the original medium (Like obviously Japanese for Dragon Ball would supersede Viz, but English Batman comics have higher priority than German ones), if not outright that medium itself, it's just most tend to use English because that's what most speak here and usually it's not a big enough deal to split hairs over it.

But, if there's a discrepancy between English and whatever he has, you might have to hunt down the raws to see which one is more accurate, if not just go ahead and use the raws itself.

In truth.

It looks like Dark Horse's used "minds" while mine used "Soul".

And it actually makes sense since the kanji are the same.

For things like spirit/mind.

EDIT: Anyway, it doesn't change what I said.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll wait for what Gin has to say on this, though I would like to double down on Glass' comment that he should tone down the insults. Kinda makes it hard to debate in good faith if you come into a thread blasting.

Also to my knowledge the Dark Horse version is up on MangaSee, though you didn't hear the from wink wink nudge nudge.

I'll be double checking the relevant stuff tomorrow, thanks.

EDIT: I've changed the two info hax scans since they literally did not change at all between versions lmao

 

[LordGinSama]

I'll drop a comment here later tonight, I finally have a day off tomorrow so I should be able to get to this.

 

[LordGinSama]

Spoiler: Blood qualifies for Type 3 CM

From what I understand the OP is disagreeing with the notion of Blood within Hellsing having Type 3 CM, which is completely fair however the OP himself doesn't actually do anything to actively debunk the evidence behind the acceptance of said CM.

To begin, let’s establish something that will be very important in discussing what these scans actually mean in context: To drink someone’s blood as a vampire is to have total mental control over them (either by turning them into a ghoul or another vampire).

Yeah no, this isn't true and outright ignores a whole bunch of context. It is never stated nor implied that drinking blood simply enslaves the mind, that was never stated. The Major and he outright states that to drink blood to take someone's whole life / existence. It would make absolutely no sense if the blood only contained the mind, no its the whole existence of the individual in question.


"Combination of the existence of others. The Fusion of lives. The unification of man."

This already puts the third scan in a new light; Integra is not saying that blood contains the literal existence of a person.

The Major does, and he's much more knowledgeable on Vampires than Integra. Also Integra never even gives the same type of statement as the Major, also your 100% cherrypicking the wording of her statement her. Nothing she said supports your point other than a point that you've been hyperfocused on that being the mind. She even calls blood the coinage of life, calls blood spiritual and even says "to drink blood is to take their entire life." Your misinterpreting things here.

Rather, Seras, due to having her blood drunk by Alucard, was formerly under his control (hence the mentions of her belonging to Alucard, as well as how blood is a tool of enslavement).

No, this is separate from the blood things. All your doing at this point is using causation that don't even work. This is a result of a Vampire underlying listening to her master, also Alucard didn't drink her blood in the same way he does to most people. He turned her into a vampire, the goal wasn't to kill her by draining her blood. So this part of the argument makes little sense and I fail to see why you even bring it up knowing they're two separate things.

To put it simply, the fact that drinking blood is “taking all that someone is” is not in reference to their concept or entire state of existence, but rather about how you quite literally belong to whoever drinks your blood.

To put it simply your wrong. Drinking blood in Hellsing is outright stated to fuse beings together, drinking blood doesnt let you place people under your control. Pip, and Luke both have free will with Luke Valentine even fleeing away from Alucard whenever he was released.

That said, the third scan in a broader context is merely in reference to Alucard’s soul reserves

My guy the souls are only there because they're apart of the blood. Blood in Hellsing contains the mind, soul and body of a individual. By drinking blood, you directly absorb their "existence." mind body and soul. That's the whole reason why Alucard can't die, because of the amount of lives that he's stolen via drinking blood of his opponents.



We also know that those souls are not an extension of Alucard himself. Those are different existences, each live is it's own individual hence why Alucard was ****** upon absorbing Schrodinger and had to spend 50 years killing each soul that wasn't his.

and how he can summon them in Level 0; In this state, they’re merely an extension of Alucard’s own being, so Integra’s statement is much more likely referring to that as well, rather than an unrelated tangent of “blood is concepts”.

They're most certainly not an extention of Alucard's own being. They can retaliate and still go against him as seen with Luke. Absorbing someone's blood within Hellsing isn't just some type of mind hax as your saying, blood is both shown and stated to store the mind and the soul.



Your Zorrin point doesn't really do anything to help your argument either. Targeting more than one mind is obviously going to be more difficult than mind having someone with one mind, after absorbing Pip Seras added him into her "life." stock, Pip's soul and mind.



like you literally can't sit here and try to force your own interpretation whenever said interpretation doesnt have the foundation to be considered a valid interpretation while also simultaneously going against what is both shown and stated in the manga multiple times.



Basically your argument is that blood doesn't really contain souls or lives, but rather by drinking blood you enslave the mind. That's certainly part of it, but your ignoring the parts where it's also the soul and body that's absorbed via the process of drinking blood. By drinking blood, you take everything away from the individual.

As an aside, the idea that drinking blood grants knowledge seems a little inconsistent, as Alucard had no notable knowledge about the Millennium group’s reformation even after absorbing Luke Valentine (which he confirms here).

Or perhaps you know, Luke just wasn't informed....? I also fail to see how that's inconsistent whenever Alucard is literally still getting information from Luke about Millennium in one way shape or form. Luke himself obviously isn't going to be aware of everything the Major is planning.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also for the record, the Dandy Man information feat was supposed to be Type 1 whereas Type 2 information manipulation comes from Schrodinger, who needs to constantly observe his information / thoughts or he'll "disappear." so that part is more so an editing issue.



But the notion that blood only contains the mind makes absolutely no sense. Blood contains the mind, body and soul of individuals. Minds are used for resistance to minx hax and gaining information, the souls are used for amplifying his regeneration and the bodies absorbed are used to summon familiares.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well I'm already seeing a lot of stuff that's just straight up untrue, so I'll replay after work.

 

[LordGinSama]

None of what I said was untrue lol. But yeah you can reply after work and I'll do the same.

 

[Crabwhale]

And I'll be here eating popcorn.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Cant even get my CRT done and we're on to another one smh

 

[Random-Helper323]

Wasn't the information being present in the blood based on Schrodinger being absorbed that way despite being composed of information as it was interpreted by his own perception?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah no, this isn't true and outright ignores a whole bunch of context. It is never stated nor implied that drinking blood simply enslaves the mind, that was never stated. The Major and he outright states that to drink blood to take someone's whole life / existence. It would make absolutely no sense if the blood only contained the mind, no its the whole existence of the individual in question.

"Combination of the existence of others. The Fusion of lives. The unification of man."

This is false; It is established in chapter one that anyone who has their blood drunk by a vampire is turned into a ghoul with no free will. Alucard later outright states that only through Seras drinking his blood that she will be freed from enslavement, implying she is bound to him in her current state. You are also blatantly misrepresenting that scan; The Major never says "the unification of man", he says "the unification of minds", which is something we clearly see demonstrated when Seras drinks Pip's blood and now possesses his memories and can communicate with him telepathically.

The Major does, and he's much more knowledgeable on Vampires than Integra. Also Integra never even gives the same type of statement as the Major, also your 100% cherrypicking the wording of her statement her. Nothing she said supports your point other than a point that you've been hyperfocused on that being the mind. She even calls blood the coinage of life, calls blood spiritual and even says "to drink blood is to take their entire life." Your misinterpreting things here.

The Major being "much more knowledgeable" on vampires than Integra, who has lead the Hellsing organization for years and has Alucard as her servant and right-hand man, is absurd. There is no point in the story where that claim is corroborated. That said... I know very well that to drink someone's blood is to take their body physically, spiritually, and mentally. The issue is that none of those things, whether separated or treated as a whole, qualify as a concept of any type.

No, this is separate from the blood things. All your doing at this point is using causation that don't even work. This is a result of a Vampire underlying listening to her master, also Alucard didn't drink her blood in the same way he does to most people. He turned her into a vampire, the goal wasn't to kill her by draining her blood. So this part of the argument makes little sense and I fail to see why you even bring it up knowing they're two separate things.

?????
My guy, this makes no sense with the context I've shown above. This panel simply being an extension of Seras listening to Alucard makes no sense, because how would that even translate into "if you drink my blood you'll be free"? I also know it was never Alucard's goal to kill Seras, what relevance does that even have here?

To put it simply your wrong. Drinking blood in Hellsing is outright stated to fuse beings together, drinking blood doesnt let you place people under your control. Pip, and Luke both have free will with Luke Valentine even fleeing away from Alucard whenever he was released.

Yes, I know it fuses people together, I literally brought that up in the OP with how Pip's thoughts fuse with Seras'. It's the whole reason why Zorin sees Pip's memories and can't mindhax Seras a second time. Also, bringing up Luke is irrelevant because the only reason he's even there is because Baskerville spits him up after getting bisected by Walter, which doesn't help prove your point, and Alucard says he was "hard to digest", so it's likely he wasn't fully absorbed and under his control like with everyone else. On top of that, it's stated that the "control ratio" changed when Baskerville died, so it's possible the mind control effect was just undone via that. Not to mention gets puppeteered by Walter like 2 seconds later so, lmao

My guy the souls are only there because they're apart of the blood. Blood in Hellsing contains the mind, soul and body of a individual. By drinking blood, you directly absorb their "existence." mind body and soul. That's the whole reason why Alucard can't die, because of the amount of lives that he's stolen via drinking blood of his opponents.

Yeah? What's your point? This is Hellsing lore 101, I get the idea, but it doesn't prove that blood is a concept and it doesn't disprove these scans you're putting forth decidedly not talking about concepts.

We also know that those souls are not an extension of Alucard himself. Those are different existences, each live is it's own individual hence why Alucard was ****** upon absorbing Schrodinger and had to spend 50 years killing each soul that wasn't his.

This is a huge contradiction; If these souls weren't literally a part of Alucard's own mind and soul, then Schrodinger's perception-based nature would never apply to him. It's the entire reason he disappears. They're all different minds, sure, but they all exist as a part of the same person, which was my point.

They're most certainly not an extention of Alucard's own being. They can retaliate and still go against him as seen with Luke. Absorbing someone's blood within Hellsing isn't just some type of mind hax as your saying, blood is both shown and stated to store the mind and the soul.

Read above for my response to the Luke stuff. In that case it's mind and soul hax. Not concept hax. In fact, I literally admit in the OP that blood is linked to the mind and soul:

The first scan is also, funnily enough, exclusively about blood’s relation to the mind and soul, and has nothing even resembling concepts at all.

Your Zorrin point doesn't really do anything to help your argument either. Targeting more than one mind is obviously going to be more difficult than mind having someone with one mind, after absorbing Pip Seras added him into her "life." stock, Pip's soul and mind.

...Yeah? What did you think my point was? I was using as an example of how drinking blood counts as the "unification of minds".

Basically your argument is that blood doesn't really contain souls or lives, but rather by drinking blood you enslave the mind. That's certainly part of it, but your ignoring the parts where it's also the soul and body that's absorbed via the process of drinking blood. By drinking blood, you take everything away from the individual.

That was never my argument.

Or perhaps you know, Luke just wasn't informed....? I also fail to see how that's inconsistent whenever Alucard is literally still getting information from Luke about Millennium in one way shape or form. Luke himself obviously isn't going to be aware of everything the Major is planning.[/SPOILER]

Luke and Jan had... something applied to them that would instantly destroy them when defeated so they wouldn't give away any information on Millennium. Also, Alucard is surprised to find out that Millennium even still exists; Luke had to have known that much, at bare minimum.

Also for the record, the Dandy Man information feat was supposed to be Type 1 whereas Type 2 information manipulation comes from Schrodinger, who needs to constantly observe his information / thoughts or he'll "disappear." so that part is more so an editing issue.

Neither of these are even information, they're just more support for blood containing the mind. The Schrodinger thing wouldn't even be fundamental information, either.

But the notion that blood only contains the mind makes absolutely no sense.

I never said this.

TL;DR: You talk a lot of shit for someone who can't support their points. To be extremely blunt, you've put forth a wall of text that gives 0 evidence for concept hax and are expecting people to just nod and go "disagree FRA". Bring evidence of concept hax or stop posting.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And I'll be here eating popcorn.

@LordGinSama Tone down the aggressive behavior, there's like no need for this when you can just refute Fuji's points.

Yall's input would be appreciated here now that Gin and I have posted our respective Cope Walls.

 

[LordGinSama]

This is false; It is established in chapter one that anyone who has their blood drunk by a vampire is turned into a ghoul with no free will.

And Ghouls aren't the reuslt of drinking all of the blood. Once all the blood is absorbed, they become apart of Alucard's life stock. We also see this happening with Pip and Seras upon her drinking his blood.


Stop using scans without actually understanding them. Your attempting to connect the process of turning someone into a ghoul to drinking someone's blood in it's entirety. Also it's up to the Vampire in question to actively turn someone into a ghoul or not, again this is evident by not everyone turning into a ghoul upon Alucard drinking their blood.

Alucard later outright states that only through Seras drinking his blood that she will be freed from enslavement, implying she is bound to him in her current state.

Again this is ignoring context. "You'll be free from the enslavement of being a Vampires Servant, you'll be a true member of our clan." this is referring to the difference between a Vampire and a Ghoul / Vampire fledgling. As I said before, stop using random scans to support your argument whenever they blatant down.

You are also blatantly misrepresenting that scan; The Major never says "the unification of man", he says "the unification of minds", which is something we clearly see demonstrated when Seras drinks Pip's blood and now possesses his memories and can communicate with him telepathically.

Uh yeah, yeah no you are again ignoring things here. Within the same statement the Major states "Combination with the existence of others." unification of minds is just one thing that absorbing blood does. By absorbing everything that one has to offer you'd be absorbing the minds of them in the process along with their soul.

The Major being "much more knowledgeable" on vampires than Integra, who has lead the Hellsing organization for years and has Alucard as her servant and right-hand man, is absurd.

This is also a load of absolute nonsese. Literally the only character who's knowledge on Vampire's is The Major himself. The Major has been Alucard's biggest rival since before Integra even ******* existed. We're talking about the guy who's been fighting Alucard since the time of Abraham VanHellsing. The very first Hellsing head, and the same dude who's the only one capable of producing Vampires.

The Major being more knowledgeable on Vampires than Integra is absolutely irrefutable.

There is no point in the story where that claim is corroborated.

Expect for the whole ass part of the story where its revealed Alucard has been fighting the Major for years, with the Major having literal years of prep time against the Count. My guy, you cannot legitimately think that Integra knows more about Vampires than The Major.

That's like me saying that Seras is more knowledgeable on Vampires than Alucard himself. One has been in the game significantly longer than the other.

That said... I know very well that to drink someone's blood is to take their body physically, spiritually, and mentally. The issue is that none of those things, whether separated or treated as a whole, qualify as a concept of any type.

Okay, see like that I understand. What I don't understand is you using this "only the mind is in the blood." agenda. Quite literally the only reason I've been aggresive here is because instead of structuring your arguments to make it reflect that you simply disagree with it being CM you instead formatted it to seem like the argument is about blood only having minds in it rather than it being against CM.

?????
My guy, this makes no sense with the context I've shown above. This panel simply being an extension of Seras listening to Alucard makes no sense, because how would that even translate into "if you drink my blood you'll be free"? I also know it was never Alucard's goal to kill Seras, what relevance does that even have here?

Again read above. Being free means that she's not a shitty Vampire fledgling anymore but rather a real Vampire. Vampire Fledglings / Ghouls are categorized as completely different than Vampires, and even Vampires are considered different than True Vampires like Alucard.

Yes, I know it fuses people together, I literally brought that up in the OP with how Pip's thoughts fuse with Seras'. It's the whole reason why Zorin sees Pip's memories and can't mindhax Seras a second time. Also, bringing up Luke is irrelevant because the only reason he's even there is because Baskerville spits him up after getting bisected by Walter.

Luke was present during Alucard's initial release of Level 0 albeit in a weird ball that's mixed with Van-Winkle, Dandyman and Baskerville.


he later shows up in Baskerville after Baskerville was summoned by Alucard. Guess what? He also ejected the bodies of Wan-Winkle, and the Dandyman whom weren't consumed by Baskerville.


Also Baskerville is completely irrelevant, the only thing he's capable of that Alucard isnt capable of doing normally is sealing. So thats irrelevant and you missed my point, point being that Alucard isnt mind haxxing them.

which doesn't help prove your point, and Alucard says he was "hard to digest", so it's likely he wasn't fully absorbed and under his control like with everyone else.

Yeah that's false. Alucard literally replaces himself with Luke so he's obviously still a familiar.

On top of that, it's stated that the "control ratio" changed when Baskerville died.

The "controll ratio." meaning Luke was freed from being sealed within Baskerville, not that Luke was being mind controlled.

so it's possible the mind control effect was just undone via that.

Read above, theres no mind hax involved. What was undone was the seal.

Not to mention gets puppeteered by Walter like 2 seconds later so, lmao

Okay cool, that doesn't really prove anything. That's just Walter controlling him, nothing more nothing less.

Yeah? What's your point? This is Hellsing lore 101, I get the idea, but it doesn't prove that blood is a concept and it doesn't disprove these scans you're putting forth decidedly not talking about concepts.

"Essence." is fundamental, I.E conceptual / fundamental. That's why JJK sorceress have Type 3 CM and Type 2 information, it's fundamental which is more than enough to qualify.

This is a huge contradiction; If these souls weren't literally a part of Alucard's own mind and soul, then Schrodinger's perception-based nature would never apply to him.

False, they arent apart of his mind. Rather they're in something that the Major calls the "river of death." basically where all that blood is stored. Alucard has his own hammer space where that blood is stored, after Schrodinger throws himself inside this literal pool of blood, he's mixed into the thousands of lives that Alucard has absorbed. That's not a contradiction as much as it is you failing to comprehend what's actually going on.

Let's look at this logically. If Alucard's mind was the same mind as the life's he's absorbed the Major would have never stated "thousands of consciousness!" rather he'd say "Alucard's consciousness."

All that blood isn't actually stored within Alucard's body or he'd be heavy as ****.

It's the entire reason he disappears. They're all different minds, sure, but they all exist as a part of the same person, which was my point.

They're all their own individuals, again we see this with them still having their personalities as seen with Pip still being himself after Seras drinks his blood.

Read above for my response to the Luke stuff. In that case it's mind and soul hax. Not concept hax. In fact, I literally admit in the OP that blood is linked to the mind and soul:

Yet the whole thread you've been hyerfocusing on the mind part rather than explaining why it isn't conceptual.

...Yeah? What did you think my point was? I was using as an example of how drinking blood counts as the "unification of minds".

Drinking blood is taking someone's entire existence.

That was never my argument.

Then format them better.

Luke and Jan had... something applied to them that would instantly destroy them when defeated so they wouldn't give away any information on Millennium. Also, Alucard is surprised to find out that Millennium even still exists; Luke had to have known that much, at bare minimum.

Cool, that doesn't mean Luke was told the finer details of the Majors plans.

Neither of these are even information, they're just more support for blood containing the mind. The Schrodinger thing wouldn't even be fundamental information, either.

I'm noticing a reoccurring theme of you saying something it's fundamental nor conceptual. This whole thread you have yet to give a single argument why they aren't.

I never said this.

Again, then learn how to format your argument better since this whole thread that's what you've been oddly fixated on.

TL;DR: You talk a lot of shit for someone who can't support their points.

I can support them, and i already have. The only person here talking shit and not being able to back it up is you my guy.

To be extremely blunt, you've put forth a wall of text that gives 0 evidence for concept hax and are expecting people to just nod and go "disagree FRA".

I've posted literally all the evidence i need. Me typing a wall of text is just how i argue, like are you ******* serious with this dude? I dont care if people agree with my argument or not, don't be making wild ass claims like that buddy.

Bring evidence of concept hax or stop posting.

Bring evidence against concept hax or stop posting.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Gin I'm gonna be honest, this still does not prove CM3/type 2 info. If you cannot substantiate concept hax, then they do not belong on the profile. Simple as. So instead of wasting everyone's time, simply provide evidence of that if you have it.

 

[LordGinSama]

Gin I'm gonna be honest, this still does not prove CM3/type 2 info.

Mad Dog I'll be perfectly succinct with you, i do not care as much for this being CM3/type2 Info, i care more so you spreading misinformation that others can interpret differently by the way you formatted your argument. If you had made your points more clear rather than hyperfocusing on a single point then i would have provided more evidence for further support on the CM and info stuff.

If you cannot substantiate concept hax, then they do not belong on the profile. Simple as.

Yet they were approved by several knowledgeable staff and users, meanwhile you haven't provided anything against it.

So instead of wasting everyone's time, simply provide evidence of that if you have it.

Practice what you preach. Provide a debunk, you haven't done that so far outside of saying "this isn't conceptual."

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mad Dog I'll be perfectly succinct with you, i do not care as much for this beinf CM3/type2 Info, i care more so you spreading misinformation that others can interpret differently by the way you formatted your argument. If you had made your points more clear rather than hyperfocusing on a single point then i would have provided more evidence for further support on the CM and info stuff.

Then provide the evidence already.

Yet they were approved by several knowledgeable staff and users, meanwhile you haven't provided anything against it.

I do not give a shit.

Practice what you preach. Provide a debunk, you haven't done that so far outside of saying "this isn't conceptual."

-Lives are not concepts.
-Minds are not concepts.
-Souls are not concepts.
-A person's existence is not a concept. Another example of this would be how all EE targets a person's "existence", but is not assumed to be conceptual unless otherwise stated.

The entirety of your argument has been that blood is all of these things, therefore it is a concept. But none of these things are concepts, so there's nothing left to support blood as a concept.

Let's both shut up and let staff evaluate, unless you want to give the Totally Reall CM3 evidence you mentioned.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah no. I'm not gonna continuing interacting with the OP, I have no obligation nor need to continue wasting my time on someone that's actively aggresive for no actual reason.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I literally just asked you to post evidence.

 

[Theglassman12]

@LordGinSama no need to be this hostile towards Fujiwara, she's asking you to post evidence that blood equates to information and concepts in the series, that's not being actively aggressive for no reason, you're just being unreasonable right now by extrapolating the word essence and push it to the most extreme.

Anyways after looking through both sides, I honestly don't see information nor concept hax via blood. Essence being used as an argument doesn't remotely help when Essence is also interchangeable with one's soul/spirit for several other dictionaries, so just saying Essence isn't enough. Plus the whole "Alucard drink's Dandy man's blood" scene doesn't really strike me as blood having information hax, that just looks like an Alucard specific ability where he can just look into his mind to get info. So count me in for removing those abilities unless other evidence is provided.

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama no need to be this hostile towards Fujiwara, she's asking you to post evidence that blood equates to information and concepts in the series, that's not being actively aggressive for no reason, you're just being unreasonable right now by extrapolating the word essence and push it to the most extreme.

Actually spare me your unjust criticism. Fujiwara is fully aware, and I'm not being unreasonable in the slightest. I have no obligation to respond to someone who's being vastly more aggressive than I am so I fail to see how your ignoring her own behavior which is significantly worse than mine for something so miniscule.


I stopped being rude and aggressive quite some time ago, she's continued to act hostile and disrespectful. I'd appreciate if you didn't act so baseless in the future glass because I haven't been aggresive recently. All I said was that I'm not interested in responding to someone who's being aggressive, which I have every right to do.


i'm not gonna interact with someone who's being aggressive for no reason. Not sure if you picked up on the tone and the attitude.

Anyways after looking through both sides, I honestly don't see information nor concept hax via blood. Essence being used as an argument doesn't remotely help when Essence is also interchangeable with one's soul/spirit for several other dictionaries, so just saying Essence isn't enough.

Essence in this case makes no sense to mean spiritual, why would they say soul twice? Also essence most certainly doesn't refer to the soul nor spiritual jazz.


essence
noun
es·sence ˈe-sᵊn(t)s
Synonyms of essence
a
: the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being
b
: the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence
a painting that captures the essence of the land
c
: the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is
2
: the most significant element, quality, or aspect of a thing or person.

Plus the whole "Alucard drink's Dandy man's blood" scene doesn't really strike me as blood having information hax, that just looks like an Alucard specific ability where he can just look into his mind to get info. So count me in for removing those abilities unless other evidence is provided.

I'd suggest you actually bother reading my argument rather than assuming things. I said that Dandy-man was used for Type 1 information, Type 2 is from Schrodinger but the profile was edited incorrectly.


Also "It looks like it's just Alucard's own ability to look into the minds of others." is about as baseless as it gets. You sit here demanding I provide evidence yet your incapable of doing it yourself.

 

[LordGinSama]

You guys can do whatever you want at this point, could honestly care less.


Unfollowed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright, sure.

Glass, can you call some more staff here?

 

[Theglassman12]

@LordGinSama

I'll reply to this load of shit tomorrow. I'm quite busy right now but I very much don't appreciate the smug, condescending tone of the OP whilst also providing blatant information which I'll address later.

Yeah no you started off this thread by making a baseless accusation on Fuji being condescending when all she's doing is questioning the reasoning in the pages. I've seen Fuji make similar CRTs in the past, it's not condescending to question the arguments, so stop with this "I stopped being rude a while ago" remarks when it's clear as day you haven't been acting your best here.

@Elizhaa @Duedate8898 @Firestorm808 @Just_a_Random_Butler @Planck69 Can any of you give any inputs in this thread?