A Song of Ice and Fire Downgrade

[Malekith]

As I recall Selmy is remembered for his skill, agility and later experience. If your strength was mentioned I don't remember

 

[DaReaperMan]

Gonna have to contest this, especially since you’re bringing up the low-fantasy nature of the verse. Physical strength is extremely relevant in situations like this, especially when it comes to swordfighting. If you a 10-B and a 9-C the exact same sword, they’re not gonna be evenly matched just because they’re using the same weapon.

Not quite? Using a blade in that scenario relies on speed, LS, and, obviously, skill. If some 9-C with average human LS and average human speed and a 10-B with above average human LS and above average human speed were to engage, most of the time the 10-B would apsolutely win, they're using a bladed weapon and piercing damage exists.

 

[LordTracer]

Not quite? Using a blade in that scenario relies on speed, LS, and, obviously, skill. If some 9-C with average human LS and average human speed and a 10-B with above average human LS and above average human speed were to engage, most of the time the 10-B would apsolutely win, they're using a bladed weapon and piercing damage exists.

You’re missing the point, I’m trying to explain that physical strength is absolutely relevant in a swordfight and the weapons themselves are not the only thing that matters.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You’re missing the point, I’m trying to explain that physical strength is absolutely relevant in a swordfight and the weapons themselves are not the only thing that matters.

You said the person's physical AP is relevant in a sword fight, this only matters if they actually throw a punch, a kick, a pommel strike, etc, if they're only fighting with their blades physical AP means literally nothing.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Can you send the scan of the book? Since horse kicks are 9-B

"Prince Maegor rode as well, but showed no great love for horses, dogs, or any animal. When he was eight, a palefrey kicked him in the stable. Maegor stabbed the horse to death... and slashed half the face off the stableboy who came running at the beast's screams."

 

[Deagonx]

Physical strength is extremely relevant in situations like this, especially when it comes to swordfighting. If you a 10-B and a 9-C the exact same sword, they’re not gonna be evenly matched just because they’re using the same weapon.

Evenly matched? No, not necessarily, but consider your own statement here:

Assuming he was using a knife to stab it, that’s not really a feat for Maegor’s physicals.

Beating a larger, stronger opponent is possible with a sword. Obviously a horse is not comparable to another swordfighter, but the point I am emphasizing here is that stabbing a stronger person with a sword will still kill them, and being stronger than someone else will not always prevent them from stabbing you.

If the book doesn’t explain it, then I think coming up with our own conclusion requires too many assumptions.

I understand that this is somewhat subjective, but I disagree with that. I think the setting is clear on how this stuff works, and if they go out of their way to explain that Maelys is "monstrous" then that gives us a very solid starting point. In particular, I think Hakim put it very well here:

We called Maelys Blackfyre "the Monstrous" because he had a grotesquely huge torso and arms, It's pure logic, Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne are not physically huge characters in terms of muscle mass. And if Barristan Selmy = Maelys Blackfyre in physical strength, that would mean that Arthur Dayne is superior to Maelys Blackyfre in physical strength, which is even more ridiculous

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Definitely agree with Deagon.

To say that characters like Robert Baratheon, Brienne Tarth or Maelys Blackfyre are physically stronger than Barristan Selmy, for example, makes sense even if it's never said explicitly. The three characters I mentioned are described and known to be freakish strong, to have incredible strength, something that was never the case for Selmy.

A "strength-based fighter" is necessarily superior to another fighter who is not. And yes a fighter does not need equal or superior physical strength to beat another, it's kind of not necessary at all.

And if you noticed it in this famous passage:
"She is stronger than I am.
The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all."

Six of the characters mentioned are extremely muscular and known for their physical strength, it is not at all a coincidence

 

[RoTt35]

"Prince Maegor rode as well, but showed no great love for horses, dogs, or any animal. When he was eight, a palefrey kicked him in the stable. Maegor stabbed the horse to death... and slashed half the face off the stableboy who came running at the beast's screams."

That's a nice feat of durability and stamina considering he was only eight years old

 

[DaReaperMan]

And if you noticed it in this famous passage:
"She is stronger than I am.
The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all."

Six of the characters mentioned are extremely muscular and known for their physical strength, it is not at all a coincidence

Oh so they're all built like pillar men?

 

[Deagonx]

The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all."

I think this strongly underscores the point here. The Mountain had inhuman strength, but he was still flesh and blood, and stabbing him and avoiding his attacks was a successful strategy for people who were in awe of his physical strength.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Oh so they're all built like pillar men?

Pillar men ?

 

[LordTracer]

You said the person's physical AP is relevant in a sword fight, this only matters if they actually throw a punch, a kick, a pommel strike, etc, if they're only fighting with their blades physical AP means literally nothing.

Dude, no. You still need to have physical strength to block your opponent’s strikes, knock their sword away, etc, etc. The sword itself isn’t what has the strength to do that, your arms actually swinging the sword (aka, your physical attack potency) is what does that.

Beating a larger, stronger opponent is possible with a sword. Obviously a horse is not comparable to another swordfighter, but the point I am emphasizing here is that stabbing a stronger person with a sword will still kill them, and being stronger than someone else will not always prevent them from stabbing you.

Okay, see, I thought you were saying that the weapons mattered more than anything else. I do agree with you on this.

I understand that this is somewhat subjective, but I disagree with that. I think the setting is clear on how this stuff works, and if they go out of their way to explain that Maelys is "monstrous" then that gives us a very solid starting point. In particular, I think Hakim put it very well here:

See, I have to disagree. Yes, Maelys has more muscle mass, but aside from that, Hakim’s reasoning against Barristan scaling is blatantly fallacious.

And if Barristan Selmy = Maelys Blackfyre in physical strength, that would mean that Arthur Dayne is superior to Maelys Blackyfre in physical strength, which is even more ridiculous

As I told him before, this isn’t a valid argument against Barristan scaling.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I think this strongly underscores the point here. The Mountain had inhuman strength, but he was still flesh and blood, and stabbing him and avoiding his attacks was a successful strategy for people who were in awe of his physical strength.

Jaime said that Brienne is stronger than him physicallu, but yet, according to Brienne herself, Jaime is superior to her in combat.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Dude, no. You still need to have physical strength to block your opponent’s strikes, knock their sword away, etc, etc. The sword itself isn’t what has the strength to do that, your arms actually swinging the sword (aka, your physical attack potency) is what does that.

Lifting Strength, ever hear of It?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Pillar men ?

 

[LordTracer]

Lifting Strength, ever hear of It?

I could do without the sass, first of all. Second of all, blocking your opponents’ strikes and knocking their blade away is not a matter of lifting strength.

 

[Deagonx]

You still need to have physical strength to block your opponent’s strikes, knock their sword away, etc, etc. The sword itself isn’t what has the strength to do that, your arms actually swinging the sword (aka, your physical attack potency) is what does that.

Sure, but the amount of strength needed to deflect a sword does not scale you physically to another person. Also dodging is a thing.

Yes, Maelys has more muscle mass, but aside from that, Hakim’s reasoning against Barristan scaling is blatantly fallacious.

You should avoid such aggressive condemnations of someone's beliefs. He's clearly not trolling, and I don't think he's being unreasonable.

For his reasoning, I think the fact that Jaime went out of his way to list people that were stronger than him and left out Barristan is not as far-fetched as you claim it to be. He clearly knows Barristan well, and the argument that he only knew him out of his prime doesn't work because he specifically referenced Hightower's heyday.

As I told him before, this isn’t a valid argument against Barristan scaling.

I think it is valid.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I could do without the sass, first of all. Second of all, blocking your opponents’ strikes and knocking their blade away is not a matter of lifting strength.

Actually, yes, yes it is. Knocking a blade away apsolutely requires some force, yes, but if you don't have the LS to move the sword in the first place how are you gonna move it with AP? It ain't like a sword that isn't stupid thick can be used like a blunt force weapon. And blocking a strike... dude, power struggles and the like ate decided by your LS, even blocking a sword strike is LS and dura, cause you have to have your sword not move, if it moves... your neck is where the opponent's sword is gonna go. You are arguing with me on something I'm an expert on.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Yes, Maelys has more muscle mass, but aside from that, Hakim’s reasoning against Barristan scaling is blatantly fallacious.

No, because in A Song of Ice and Fire the muscular mass of a fighter counts a lot for the scaling of force, like in real life (not for nothing that we make weight categories in boxing, because we use our whole body to perform a good and powerful punch.)

 

[DaReaperMan]

And if you noticed it in this famous passage:
"She is stronger than I am.
The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all."

And this my friend @LordTracer screws you. Speed and skill, not speed and power, not skill and power, speed and skill. He's using a ******* sword. It's not physical AP to slice and stab unarmored parts of an opponent unless they're like, 5-B, in which case, yes, the person would have to scale in durability.

 

[LordTracer]

Sure, but the amount of strength needed to deflect a sword does not scale you physically to another person. Also dodging is a thing.

Mm, no, it definitely does. Dodging is completely irrelevant to the argument here, but okay.

You should avoid such aggressive condemnations of someone's beliefs. He's clearly not trolling, and I don't think he's being unreasonable.

???? I never said he was trolling or being unreasonable, where are you getting that from?

For his reasoning, I think the fact that Jaime went out of his way to list people that were stronger than him and left out Barristan is not as far-fetched as you claim it to be. He clearly knows Barristan well, and the argument that he only knew him out of his prime doesn't work because he specifically referenced Hightower's heyday.

This is clearly not what I was calling fallacious, i thought the bolded text would make it clear that his statement of; “that would mean that Arthur Dayne is superior to Maelys Blackyfre in physical strength, which is even more ridiculous” is what was fallacious.

I think it is valid.

You think argument from incredulity is valid?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

He clearly knows Barristan well

He knows Barristan Selmy and he trained with him for 18 years yes, and he also trained with Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower for 1 year, and has already fought alongside them.

 

[Deagonx]

Mm, no, it definitely does. Dodging is completely irrelevant to the argument here, but okay.

Okay, well I disagree.

???? I never said he was trolling or being unreasonable, where are you getting that from?

I'm not saying you did, I'm saying that because he's being reasonable you shouldn't be so aggressive in how you characterize his arguments.

This is clearly not what I was calling fallacious, i thought the bolded text would make it clear that his statement of; “that would mean that Arthur Dayne is superior to Maelys Blackyfre in physical strength, which is even more ridiculous” is what was fallacious.

You think argument from incredulity is valid?

No, I just don't think is argument is "from incredulity." In the context, he's clearly saying that this approach lands upon a conclusion that is overtly incompatible with how these characters are presented in the story.

 

[LordTracer]

And this my friend @LordTracer screws you. Speed and skill, not speed and power, not skill and power, speed and skill. He's using a ******* sword. It's not physical AP to slice and stab unarmored parts of an opponent unless they're like, 5-B, in which case, yes, the person would have to scale in durability.

I have literally acknowledged in this thread that you can beat someone by being faster and more skilled than them. I’d appreciate if you didn’t act like I was arguing against that.

The issue with Barristan and Maelys is that the only information we have on that fight is “Barristan fought Maelys and beat him”. Therefore, I come to the conclusion that Barristan scales. I think that saying he beat him through speed and skill when no such thing was stated requires more assumptions.

 

[Deagonx]

The issue with Barristan and Maelys is that the only information we have on that fight is “Barristan fought Maelys and beat him”. Therefore, I come to the conclusion that Barristan scales. I think that saying he beat him through speed and skill when no such thing was stated requires more assumptions.

We have contextual information that can fill in the blanks. Specifically that Maelys is a monstrously strong human being, and that Jaime knows Barristan well but does not count him among people who are physically stronger than him. And sure, I agree that this evidence is not direct, but I think the deductive conclusion is valid. Barristan beat him with speed and skill is the best conclusion to make, rather than assuming Barristan has a huge degree of unmentioned strength that would place him, and by extension multiple other characters, above a man who the story goes out of it's way to describe as monstrously and uniquely strong.

 

[LordTracer]

I'm not saying you did, I'm saying that because he's being reasonable you shouldn't be so aggressive in how you characterize his arguments.

I’m not trying to be aggressive, I apologize if it came off that way, but saying something doesn’t work because you find it ridiculous is textbook argument from incredulity and fallacious.

No, I just don't think is argument is "from incredulity." In the context, he's clearly saying that this approach lands upon a conclusion that is overtly incompatible with how these characters are presented in the story.

I disagree, but it honestly doesn’t matter, all characters mentioned here will be “At least Street level” regardless, so I’ll concede on this.

 

[Deagonx]

but saying something doesn’t work because you find it ridiculous is textbook argument from incredulity and fallacious.

Only if you remove the context, which you shouldn't. He didn't spell it out word for word, but his meaning was clear and it wasn't fallacious.

 

[LordTracer]

Only if you remove the context, which you shouldn't. He didn't spell it out word for word, but his meaning was clear and it wasn't fallacious.

Okay, whatever, I already conceded on this point so I don’t know why you’re still arguing it.

 

[LordTracer]

Now, can someone provide sources for the feats recorded in the sandbox?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

No, because in A Song of Ice and Fire the muscular mass of a fighter counts a lot for the scaling of force

Here are some example for support my point:

"Once clad in mail and plate,the Lord of Bones seemed to stand a little straighter. He seemed taller too, his shoulders thicker and more powerful than Jon would have thought. It's the armor, not the man, he told himself."
If physical build had nothing to do with physical strength, Jon would never be worried about it.

"Halder had been born in a quarry and apprenticed as a stonemason. He was sixteen, tall and muscular, and his blows were as hard as any Jon had ever felt."

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast."

In these two examples, two characters, Halder and Robb, are described as more muscular than Jon. For Halder it is rather clear that he is superior to Jon in strength, for Robb it is less so but it is quite logical too ("graceful and slender" vs "muscular and strong")

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Now, can someone provide sources for the feats recorded in the sandbox?

Yes, but not now, it's too long, I'll do it tomorrow. I will also give the justifications for the other characters

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

For Halder it is rather clear that he is superior to Jon in strength

And I forgot that:

"Know your foe, Ser Rodrik had taught him once; Jon knew Halder, brutally strong but short of patience [...] Jon blocked a savage cut at his head, the shock of impact running up his arm as the swords crashed together [...] The counterstroke caught Jon on the shoulders. Chainmail crunched, and pain flared up his neck; but for an instant Halder was unbalanced. [...] "For an instant, I thought I finally had you, Snow." "For an instant, you did," Jon replied."

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I will also make a profile for Criston Cole, he has good feats.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

They probably don't have such lean muscles but it's close yes, for some (It says in the books that young Robert was muscled "like a maiden's fantasy.")

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

So, sandbox with character stats is here. Every character listed as Unknown needs a justification for their attack potency, and every character with justifications needs sources (i.e. names of the chapters where the feats happened) for their feats.

"Durability: Street level (Survived a kick from a palfrey when he was an eight-year old child[1])"

I think a horse kick is 9-B

 

[LordTracer]

"Durability: Street level (Survived a kick from a palfrey when he was an eight-year old child[1])"

I think a horse kick is 9-B

They’re “up to 9-B”, not always 9-B.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

They’re “up to 9-B”, not always 9-B.

okay

 

[Deagonx]

"Durability: Street level (Survived a kick from a palfrey when he was an eight-year old child[1])"

I think a horse kick is 9-B

I agree with Tracer, I don't think we should assume off-hand that every time a horse kicks someone that it's a full buck from an adult-horse.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Rhaegar Targaryen: Could face Prime Robert Baratheon in single combat and injure him (Source: A Game of Thrones, Eddard II and The World of Ice and Fire, The Fall of the Dragons)
Daemon Targaryen: Was a renowned warrior skilled in the joust, hunting, and swordplay and excelled at it (Source: Fire and Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession.)
Jaehaerys Targaryen: Ser Elyas Scales, Jaehaerys's master-at-arms, claimed that Jaehaerys had enough skill to beat his uncle Maegor in combat, had Maegor still lived (Source: Fire and Blood, A Surfeit of Rulers.)
Maegor Targaryen: Was one of the best fighters in the Seven Kingdoms and fearsomely strong man (Source; Fire and Blood, The Sons of the Dragon)
Visenya Targaryen: Since young age, Visenya trained together with Aegon at arms, and she became a skilled warrior, was as much a warrior as Aegon himself (Source: Fire and Blood, Aegon's Conquest.)
Aegon Targaryen: He was counted amongst the greatest warriors of his age (Source: Fire and Blood, Aegon's Conquest.)
Duncan: Duncan joined the Kingsguard, and later became the Lord Commander (Source: The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V and A Storm of Swords, Jaime VIII). The Kingsguard are the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms (Source: A Game of Thrones, Bran II and A Feast for Crows, The Queenmaker). Defeated Lyonel Baratheon in a trial by combat (Source: The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V and The Stormlands: House Baratheon), Lyonel was on the greatest fighters of his day (Source: The World of Ice & Fire, The Stormlands: House Baratheon.)
Three-Eyed Crow: GRRM stated Brynden Rivers was a good swordsman (Source: So Spake Martin: Concerning the Great Bastards (April 06, 2004 ). Fought Aegor Rivers in single combat twice (Source: The Sworn Sword and The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Daeron II and Aerys I), and Aegor was one of the best fighter in the Seven Kingdoms (Source: The Sworn Sword).
Daemon Blackfyre: Was one of the best fighters in the Seven Kingdoms (The Sworn Sword)
Aemon Targaryen: He proved the greatest jouster and swordsman of his age (The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Viserys II.)

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I started with the Crownlands, I'll do the rest later