A Song of Ice and Fire Downgrade

[LordTracer]

It's just said that Barristan Selmy defeated Maelys Blackfyre in single combat, and he surely did it with speed and skill, the same way Jaime can beat Brienne when she's stronger than him, because Barristan does not match Maelys Blackfyre in physical strength.

Prove that Barristan doesn’t match him in physical strength.

Yes, it is, because thanks to Björnsson's build and musculature, Connor McGregor cannot match him in physical strength. And it's exactly the same for Arthur Dayne compared to Robert Baratheon, Brienne Tarth and Jon Umber, it's downscaling at best in this case. And you keep saying that it's not an argument without explaining why.

You have literally no evidence to suggest that Arthur can’t be on that level of physical strength, all you’ve said is that because Robert is specifically noted to be strong, he has to be stronger than Arthur, which is false.

We are not listing Robert as superior to Arthur just because “he’s strong tho”. There’s nothing comparing them, so they don’t scale to each other in any way.

Because downscaling. Whether it's in the series or the books, Arya doesn't have the same physical strength as Brienne, because nothing says so and because Brienne is far more muscular and huge than she is.

You missed the point entirely. You’re arguing that Robert has to be stronger than Arthur because he’s specifically noted for his strength and Arthur isn’t, but simply being a strength-based fighter does not mean automatic superiority over all non-strength based fighters.

Comparable in lifting strength, yes

No, you’re not going to do that. It’s a simple fact that being able to use the same weapon as someone else doesn’t mean you’re physically comparable to them.

A character with Peak Human lifting strength can lift a greatsword. A character with Class Z lifting strength can lift a greatsword too. Your logic says that they have to be comparable, when that’s clearly not the case.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

ou’re arguing that Robert has to be stronger than Arthur because he’s specifically noted for his strength and Arthur isn’t, but simply being a strength-based fighter does not mean automatic superiority over all non-strength based fighters.

Again, yes it is.
Characters like Robert Baratheon, Brienne Tarth and Jon Umber will be stronger than Arthur Dayne for one simple and good reason, muscle mass. In addition to being fighters who increase their strength by often training with weapons, they have the advantage of having a much larger muscle mass than Arthur Dayne. Strength and mass are not proportional, but muscle mass obviously gives strength, and Robert, Brienne and Jon have this advantage, and are therefore logically stronger than Arthur.

Same for the Barristan Selmy and Maleys Blackfyre comparison. We called Maelys Blackfyre "the Monstrous" because he had a grotesquely huge torso and arms, It's pure logic, Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne are not physically huge characters in terms of muscle mass. And if Barristan Selmy = Maelys Blackfyre in physical strength, that would mean that Arthur Dayne is superior to Maelys Blackyfre in physical strength, which is even more ridiculous

A character with Peak Human lifting strength can lift a greatsword. A character with Class Z lifting strength can lift a greatsword too. Your logic says that they have to be comparable, when that’s clearly not the case.

But neither Arthur Dayne nor Mance Rayder are Class Z, E, P, T, G, M, K, 100, 50, 25, 10 or 5 in lifting strength, because they don't have strength comparable to characters like The Mountain, Greatjon, etc. So they necessarily have a more or less comparable strength, to be able to fight easily and quickly with greatswords

 

[LordTracer]

Again, yes it is.
Characters like Robert Baratheon, Brienne Tarth and Jon Umber will be stronger than Arthur Dayne for one simple and good reason, muscle mass. In addition to being fighters who increase their strength by often training with weapons, they have the advantage of having a much larger muscle mass than Arthur Dayne. Strength and mass are not proportional, but muscle mass obviously gives strength, and Robert, Brienne and Jon have this advantage, and are therefore logically stronger than Arthur.

You’re trying to apply strict real world logic to a fantasy verse. If they aren’t directly stated to be stronger than Arthur, they will not be listed as stronger than Arthur. Hate to break it to you, but this is how the wiki works.

Same for the Barristan Selmy and Maleys Blackfyre comparison. We called Maelys Blackfyre "the Monstrous" because he had a grotesquely huge torso and arms, It's pure logic, Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne are not physically huge characters in terms of muscle mass. And if Barristan Selmy = Maelys Blackfyre in physical strength, that would mean that Arthur Dayne is superior to Maelys Blackyfre in physical strength, which is even more ridiculous

It being ridiculous is argument from incredulity, which is a fallacy and not an acceptable argument against it. Barristan beat Maelys, and there is no evidence that he did so through speed and skill, so his AP scales above Maelys.

But neither Arthur Dayne nor Mance Rayder are Class Z, E, P, T, G, M, K, 100, 50, 25, 10 or 5 in lifting strength, because they don't have strength comparable to characters like The Mountain, Greatjon, etc. So they necessarily have a more or less comparable strength, to be able to fight easily and quickly with greatswords

And you completely missed the point again. Being able to lift the same thing does not mean they directly scale to each other. Not to mention the fact that greatswords can vary in size and weight.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

You’re trying to apply strict real world logic to a fantasy verse.

Seriously ? This wiki uses myriads of calculations and pixel calcs for character feats, and you use real life logic almost all the time. .
That real world logics don't apply in fiction, yes I know it possible, but not for all rules and logics, and for the one I mentioned above, there is no reason not to consider it in fiction by default, because downscaling exists.

It being ridiculous is argument from incredulity, which is a fallacy and not an acceptable argument against it. Barristan beat Maelys, and there is no evidence that he did so through speed and skill, so his AP scales above Maelys.

I said it's ridiculous because your arguments don't make any sense and I explained why, I didn't say "ridiculous" was an argument, stop with that.

Being able to lift the same thing does not mean they directly scale to each other.

And again, why?

 

[LordTracer]

Seriously ? This wiki uses myriads of calculations and pixel calcs for character feats, and you use real life logic almost all the time. .
That real world logics don't apply in fiction, yes I know it possible, but not for all rules and logics, and for the one I mentioned above, there is no reason not to consider it, because downscaling exists.

You use the term downscaling a lot, but I don’t think you actually understand what it means, because it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Robert is never directly compared to Arthur, neither is the Greatjon or Brienne, so they will not directly scale to him. Period.

I said it's ridiculous because your arguments don't make any sense and I explained why, I didn't say "ridiculous" was an argument, stop with that.

No, you said, and I quote; “that would mean that Arthur Dayne is superior to Maelys Blackyfre in physical strength, which is even more ridiculous”. You have yet to provide any evidence that Barristan defeated Maelys through speed and skill, so it’s not going to be considered like that on the profiles.

And again, why?

I’ve already explained this to you. A Class 1 character and a Class Z character can both lift 10 kilograms. Your logic dictates that they would have to directly scale to each other because they both lifted 10 kilograms, even though the characters are never actually compared to each other in any way. Such scaling is not going to be accepted on the wiki.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

You use the term downscaling a lot, but I don’t think you actually understand what it means, because it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Robert is never directly compared to Arthur, neither is the Greatjon or Brienne, so they will not directly scale to him. Period.

No, you said, and I quote; “that would mean that Arthur Dayne is superior to Maelys Blackyfre in physical strength, which is even more ridiculous”. You have yet to provide any evidence that Barristan defeated Maelys through speed and skill, so it’s not going to be considered like that on the profiles.

Why don't you use the reasoning I mentioned? Where does it say in the wiki rules that this logic cannot be used? You say this logic doesn't apply in fantasy worlds without explaining why, so I'm waiting for the explanation. I want to believe you, but not without argument and explanation

 

[LordTracer]

Why don't you use the reasoning I mentioned? Where does it say in the wiki rules that this logic cannot be used? You say this logic doesn't apply in fantasy worlds without explaining why, so I'm waiting for the explanation. I want to believe you, but not without argument and explanation

To quote from the description of the Content Revision board and the Discussion Rules:

Before posting, make sure that your arguments are presented in a manner that is easy to understand and backed by valid scans.
Content Revision Threads need to be supported by scans, quotes, video clips, accepted calculations, or any other direct proof that claimed events actually happened in the source material. In the absence of this evidence, CRTs may be closed without notice.

You haven’t given scans to show Maelys being stronger than Barristan, nor have you given scans that put Robert above Arthur, nor have you given scans that say Mance physically scales to Arthur.
From the Discussuon Rules:

Avoid writing upgrade threads mainly based on assumptions from a limited amount of information, with no additional context or evidence to support them.

Your assertion of Barristan beating Maelys through speed and skill is an assumption that isn’t backed with any evidence. Your assertion that Robert, the Greatjon and Brienne have to be stronger than Arthur because they have more muscle mass is also an assumption without evidence to support it. Same with your assertion that Mance and Arthur are comparable physically because they can both lift greatswords.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

You haven’t given scans to show Maelys being stronger than Barristan, nor have you given scans that put Robert above Arthur, nor have you given scans that say Mance physically scales to Arthur.

It absolutely does not answer my question: why is a fighter with a greater muscle mass than another fighter is not physically stronger by default?

 

[LordTracer]

It absolutely does not answer my question: why is a fighter with a greater muscle mass than another fighter is not physically stronger by default?

Because it’s an assumption that they’d be stronger, and as I posted above, you shouldn’t use assumptions that don’t have any actual support. The assumption that Maelys is stronger than Barristan doesn’t have any evidence to support it. Nor does the assumption that Robert, Brienne and the Greatjon are stronger than Arthur.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Because it’s an assumption

But why does VSBW consider this an assumption? A fighter with a more massive muscle mass than another fighter will necessarily be stronger physically, it's biological, that's how it works by default. So again, why don't you take that into account?

 

[LordTracer]

But why does VSBW consider this an assumption? A fighter with a more massive muscle mass than another fighter will necessarily be stronger physically, it's biological, that's how it works by default. So again, why don't you take that into account?

Do you want me to find examples on the wiki of characters with more muscle mass being weaker than those with less? Because I can do so.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Do you want me to find examples on the wiki of characters with more muscle mass being weaker than those with less? Because I can do so.

Yes you can do it, it won't necessarily be true because I won't have the context. A character with light muscle mass could beat another with greater mass via speed, skill, or simply because it was said to have equal or greater strength despite its lower mass, something that doesn't was ever said for Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy. It has never been said that Arthur and Barristan have a strength equal or superior than Maelys, Robert or Brienne, so they are lower than them by default (downscaling) because their muscle mass is much less important than the three characters mentioned, because biologically it is like that.

 

[LordTracer]

Yes you can do it, it won't necessarily be true because I won't have the context. A character with light muscle mass could beat another with greater mass via speed, skill, or simply because it was said to have equal or greater strength despite its lower mass,

Cassandra Cain is stronger than Batman. This isn’t a matter of her just beating him, she’s just physically stronger than him. By your logic, Batman should be stronger because he has significantly greater muscle mass than her, but he isn’t, because we don’t automatically make assumptions like that.

It has never been said that Arthur and Barristan have a strength equal or superior than Maelys, Robert or Brienne, so they are lower than them by default (downscaling) because their muscle mass is much less important than the three characters mentioned, because biologically it is like that.

I’ve already explained to you multiple times that the wiki doesn’t work like that. Barristan is stated to have beaten Maelys, so he scales above Maelys. Robert, Brienne and the Greatjon are never once compared to Arthur in any way, so they don’t scale to Arthur in any way. That’s just how it is.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

she’s just physically stronger than him.

If it's been said or shown that Cassandra Cain is physically stronger than Batman yes that's valid, like I said. But it was never said for Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy, so by default they are weaker than Maelys, Robert and Brienne via muscle mass, because that's how biologically and physiologically it works.

I’ve already explained to you multiple times that the wiki doesn’t work like that.

Yes I know, but why? Do I have to make a thread to get the answer?

 

[LordTracer]

If it's been said or shown that Cassandra Cain is physically stronger than Batman yes that's valid, like I said. But it was never said for Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy, so by default they are weaker than Maelys, Robert and Brienne via muscle mass, because that's how biologically and physiologically it works.

Said or shown to be stronger, like how Barristan was with Maelys, because he literally beat him. Stop saying that we assume characters with more muscle mass to be stronger by default, because that’s not the case, has never been the case, and will never be the case without the verse acknowledging that as it’s own logic.

Yes I know, but why? Do I have to make a thread to get the answer?

Because there is literally no reason for it to work like that. You’re just assuming it works like that, and the literal rules say not to do that.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Stop saying that we assume characters with more muscle mass to be stronger by default, because that’s not the case, has never been the case, and will never be the case without the verse acknowledging that as it’s own logic.

A logic that all verses should have by default, unless the opposite is said or shown for one or more characters, quite simply.

Because there is literally no reason for it to work like that.

Science will tell you the opposite.

You’re just assuming it works like that, and the literal rules say not to do that.

So we have to review the rules, or explain why it doesn't work in fiction in general.

 

[LordTracer]

A logic that all verses should have by default, unless the opposite is said or shown for one or more characters, quite simply.

Except they don’t have it, so it’s not going to be applied here.

So we have to review the rules, or explain why it doesn't work in fiction in general.

If you want to attempt to revise the rules, you are more than welcome to do so. But until you do that, and unless it gets accepted, we are not applying that logic to this verse.

 

[RoTt35]

If you want to propose a change in the rules and standards you can do it, but this thread is not the place to do it and right now we have to update the ASOIAF profiles based on our current rules and standards

 

[RoTt35]

I agree with LordTracer's points btw

 

[LordTracer]

I’m going to put together a sandbox with all the ASoIaF characters’ attack potency justifications so we can keep track of who still needs edits (and maybe even what profiles should be deleted).

 

[LordTracer]

LordTracer/ASOIAF

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here’s the sandbox, every character with no justification has been left as Unknown. And for future reference, I would like sources for each statement in order to add them as references.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

And for future reference, I would like sources for each statement in order to add them as references.

I would first make a thread about our topic yesterday to find out more.
I don't want to create a profile or help contribute to it with this current rule which looks weird to me.

 

[LordTracer]

I would suggest you do that sooner than later, because the verse and profiles are in such a state where they could be deleted.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Done https://vsbattles.com/threads/muscular-mass-and-striking-strength.142026/

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump.

 

[LordTracer]

So, sandbox with character stats is here. Every character listed as Unknown needs a justification for their attack potency, and every character with justifications needs sources (i.e. names of the chapters where the feats happened) for their feats.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

And I will also prove that in most cases the more powerfully built characters are often stronger than those who are less, in A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

So, sandbox with character stats is here. Every character listed as Unknown needs a justification for their attack potency, and every character with justifications needs sources (i.e. names of the chapters where the feats happened) for their feats.

For Maegor, when he was eight, he stabbed to death a horse which had kicked him

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

For speed, one should downgrade from subsonic to athlete/peak human. The feat with the afterimages looks like an outlier to me and it's the one and only feat of this level in all the books.

 

[LordTracer]

And I will also prove that in most cases the more powerfully built characters are often stronger than those who are less, in A Song of Ice and Fire.

Often doesn’t mean always, that wouldn’t be enough evidence to make that assumption for the entire verse, including characters who have never interacted with each other.

For Maegor, when he was eight, he stabbed to death a horse which had kicked him

1) Source the feat. What book and chapter did it happen in?
2) Assuming he was using a knife to stab it, that’s not really a feat for Maegor’s physicals. However, surviving being kicked by a horse might be a decent feat, I’d need to see the context for it.

 

[Malekith]

Então, sandbox com estatísticas de personagens está aqui . Todo personagem listado como Desconhecido precisa de uma justificativa para sua potência de ataque, e todo personagem com justificativas precisa de fontes (ou seja, nomes dos capítulos onde os feitos aconteceram) para seus feitos.

I think it's fair to add the description of Valyrian steel for the Dark Sister, like this one on Blackfyre.

 

[Deagonx]

I agree with Ser_Hakim_Dayne's reasonings overall. I recognize that some of evidence is inductive, but I do find it compelling that if a character is constantly upheld as having exceptional strength, it stands to reason that if another prominent character were truly on that level, it would bear mention that they are also uniquely strong, and in the persistent absence of any such clarification, scaling one above the other should be valid IMO.

Moreover, while it is true that there are many instances of smaller characters being stronger than larger characters in fiction, I think the low-fantasy nature of Game of Thrones warrants consideration here. Obviously there are dragons, and magic, and some feats beyond what humans are capable of, but it is fairly realistic compared to something like Batman, and I think it is generally a safe conclusion to draw that a small character beating a larger character is not indicative of a physical strength advantage when weapons are involved.

The fact that the book does not labor to explicitly state that a fight was won with skill rather than strength shouldn't prevent us from drawing reasonable conclusions about the nature of a fight, especially if the general concept that speed and skill can overcome raw strength is specifically explained.

More generally, I don't think we should handicap ourselves to only drawing conclusions that are blatantly spelled out for us. We can make reasonable assessments in the absence of explicit data, and I think Ser_Hakim in general has done a great job of that within the context of the setting and based on what has actually been said.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

1) Source the feat. What book and chapter did it happen in?
2) Assuming he was using a knife to stab it, that’s not really a feat for Maegor’s physicals. However, surviving being kicked by a horse might be a decent feat, I’d need to see the context for it.

1) Book: Fire and Blood, Chapter: The Sons of the Dragon
2) There's no more context than that. In Fire and Blood we only know that a palfrey kicked Maegor, and then Maegor stabbed him to death. (Fire and Blood is a fictionnal history book)

 

[RoTt35]

2) There's no more context than that. In Fire and Blood we only know that a palfrey kicked Maegor, and then Maegor stabbed him to death. (Fire and Blood is a fictionnal history book)

Can you send the scan of the book? Since horse kicks are 9-B

 

[LordTracer]

1) Book: Fire and Blood, Chapter: The Sons of the Dragon

Thank you.

2) There's no more context than that. In Fire and Blood we only know that a palfrey kicked Maegor, and then Maegor stabbed him to death. (Fire and Blood is a fictionnal history book)

Meh, solid 9-C feat I suppose. (And I know what Fire and Blood is lmao, I’ve been looking into Targaryen history quite a lot lately)

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Snapping a longsword in two is roughly baseline 9-C

Snapping a sword depends pretty heavily on how it was made and what it was made with. A katana is pretty rigid and can crack and snap pretty easily under abuse, whereas ulfberht swords are flexible as all hell and can be bent by 9-C strikes and spring right back into shape

 

[DaReaperMan]

I missed that! But yes, snapping a sword 100% depends on the kind of sword

 

[LordTracer]

and I think it is generally a safe conclusion to draw that a small character beating a larger character is not indicative of a physical strength advantage when weapons are involved.

Gonna have to contest this, especially since you’re bringing up the low-fantasy nature of the verse. Physical strength is extremely relevant in situations like this, especially when it comes to swordfighting. If you a 10-B and a 9-C the exact same sword, they’re not gonna be evenly matched just because they’re using the same weapon.

The fact that the book does not labor to explicitly state that a fight was won with skill rather than strength shouldn't prevent us from drawing reasonable conclusions about the nature of a fight, especially if the general concept that speed and skill can overcome raw strength is specifically explained.

If the book doesn’t explain it, then I think coming up with our own conclusion requires too many assumptions. Going; “Barristan defeated Maelys, so he scales to Maelys” requires a lot less assumptions than “Barristan defeated Maelys, but since Maelys is bigger than Barristan, Barristan probably used speed and skill to defeat him”

 

[RoTt35]

Snapping a sword depends pretty heavily on how it was made and what it was made with. A katana is pretty rigid and can crack and snap pretty easily under abuse, whereas ulfberht swords are flexible as all hell and can be bent by 9-C strikes and spring right back into shape

Yes, I used the results of cutting a sword in two as a guide, which I would think is not too far from snapping

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Definitely agree with Deagon.

To say that characters like Robert Baratheon, Brienne Tarth or Maelys Blackfyre are physically stronger than Barristan Selmy, for example, makes sense even if it's never said explicitly. The three characters I mentioned are described and known to be freakish strong, to have incredible strength, something that was never the case for Selmy.

A "strength-based fighter" is necessarily superior to another fighter who is not. And yes a fighter does not need equal or superior physical strength to beat another, it's kind of not necessary at all.