A review for Servant stats (Fate franchise)

[ScarletFirefly]

Introductio

The purpose of this Content Revision Thread is to review the stats for the Servants from the Fate franchise. This topic has been on my mind for some time considering that, in my opinion, these stats have a weird fluctuation. I'm going to use the Parameter Rules to explain things in this thread.

What are Parameter Rules (PR)
For those of you who are unfamiliar with this term, Parameter Rules are a set of rules that are meant to represent the relative power of Servants/Weapons in the Fate franchise. This is normally represented by letters: A, B, C, D, E and EX.

Each letter has a quantifiable number (an arbitrary unit, hereafter mentioned as AU) to it. If 1 AU is the lowest value, then the letter E represents 10 AU, the letter D represents 20 AU, and so on to the letter A representing 50 AU.

The rank EX is an exception to this rule, because it cannot be quantified under the normal system because it is powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless.

There are two modifiers that can be applied to this system. The + modifier and the - modifier. We will not be going over the latter because it is not relevant to this discussion.

The + modifier represents a boost in power.

• + indicates a two-times increase
• ++ indicates a three times increase
• +++ indicates a four times increase.

Here is a table that will make this easier to understand.

RANK	VALUE	+	++	+++
A	50	100	150	200
B	40	80	120	160
C	30	60	90	120
D	20	40	60	80
E	10	20	30	40

All values in this table are in an Arbitrary Unit (AU).

Using Parameter Rules as a basis for stats
Now I'm going to use these Parameter Rules for the Servant stats. We are going to use Saber as a reference.

Her full power Excalibur is rated as At least Small Island level.

I'm going to use the lowest possible value for this tier. That is 1 Gigaton or 1000 Megatons.

Now Excalibur, under the Parameter Rules system, is rated as an A++ ability. This means that the A++ rating refers to At least 1000 Megatons of energy. From the table above we get A->333,333 Megatons of energy.

We use the same method for the other letters and we get the following table:

RANK	VALUE	+	++	+++
A	333.333	666.666	999.999	1333.332
B	266.6664	533.333	799.999	1066.666
C	199.999	399.999	599.999	799.999
D	133.333	266.666	399.999	533.333
E	66.666	133.333	199.999	266.666

All values in this table are in Megatons.

What this means for the Servants
Basically every Servant's Attack Potency and Durability, depending on their stats, should be:

• A+++ Rank: At least Small Island level (1.3 Gigatons)
• A++ Rank: At least Small Island level (1 Gigaton)
• A+ Rank: At least Mountain Level+ (666.666 Megatons)
• A Rank: At least Mountain level (333.333 Megatons)
• B Rank: At least Mountain level (266.6664 Megatons)
• C Rank: At least Mountain level (199.999 Megatons)
• D Rank: At least Mountain level (133.333 Megatons)
• E Rank: At least City level+ (66.666 Megatons)

Of course the Striking Strength would be changed accordingly.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

You sure putting in the comma of them is appropriate or you meant to put it in thing like "333.333 Megatons" or something?

Just a minor thing that has me rather confused.

These sound like good upgrades but i believe Kami and NEH would need to take a look at this for reals to make a better judge of this.

Also, whattup.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

You sure putting in the comma of them is appropriate or you meant to put it in thing like "333.333 Megatons" or something?
Just a minor thing that has me rather confused.

Oh sorry I didn't mean to confuse anyone. That is a decimal point. Old habits die hard I guess. I'll edit them.

Fixed.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

A lot better. Though i think for the E rank one, that person will likely be City level+ by then.

Anyways, i can go and ask NEH and Kami here for input about this for ya if ya want....or post this on the Nasuverse(Fate Series more like actually when i look at it) Discussion Thread? Maybe just message them here.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

A lot better. Though i think for the E rank one, that person will likely be City level+ by then.
Oops, missed that one. Fixing it.

Anyways, i can go and ask NEH and Kami here for input about this for ya if ya want....or post this on the Nasuverse(Fate Series more like actually when i look at it) Discussion Thread? Maybe just message them here.
Sure go ahead and ask them for input if that's alright with them.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Done.~

 

[Gemmysaur]

Is this a proposal for a stat change? That's rather huge.

Is this applicable to physical stats though? I mean, Excaliblast is a noble phantasm so it'd supposedly be far above what Saber can normally put out.

Perhaps the same rating system, but a different feat base is to be used for the physical stats?

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Is this a proposal for a stat change? That's rather huge.

Yes it is.

Is this applicable to physical stats though? I mean, Excaliblast is a noble phantasm so it'd supposedly be far above what Saber can normally put out.
The same system applies to physical strength as well.

 

[KamiYasha]

While the idea is just fine, i have a few issues:

1) Using Excalibur as a reference isn't very wise. While we can use Saber as a point of reference (either physical power, speed or antyhing else), using Excalibur is kind off overwhelming. Mostly because Excalibur is one of the strongest weapons.

2) Take in mind that the Parameters aren't meant to be followed to the letter. Like for example Angra Mainyu, Hans, Nursery Rhyme and a few more who have E rank strength and by far among the weakest servants (Overall Angra) are barely around Superhuman levels.

3) Using the parameters it's okay, but only if said character doesn't have any feat to be power-scaled.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I mean, does the same feat base (Excaliblast) apply to physical stats? It's a noble phantasm. Do we have anything else to use as a base for the system when it comes to physicality?

 

[KamiYasha]

Heracles deflected one of those blast in a "bad end".

 

[LazyHunter]

I also don't think that comparing NP ranks to Strength and Endurance ranks like this is valid. Like Kamiyasha said, aren't there some physically weak Servants that Nasuverse humans can fight straight on? Having those as City level seems like a stretch.

P.D: Though I just checked Nursery Rhyme, and despite being one of the weakest Servants around she's put as Town level for what IMO are clearly game mechanics, so I don't know if there's some issues with the stat powerscalings or what.

 

[DontTalk]

If it comes to powerlevels there is a standard question:

Do we know that joules to AU conversion is a linear function?

 

[ScarletFirefly]

@Kami

Unless there are feats contradicting the system, there shouldn't be a reason to not use it I believe.

If Hans and others have very low stats, the system doesn't have another letter to represent this so it would probably relegate them to the lowest possible rank.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'm absurdly dubious on using linear scaling like that, plus what others have said above about NP ranks.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

I'm absurdly dubious on using linear scaling like that, plus what others have said above about NP ranks.

Isn't the Parameter Rules currently being used as a basis for scaling though?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Not for Noble Phantasms, and we're using preexisting feats for that, not mathematical scaling like this.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Not for Noble Phantasms, and we're using preexisting feats for that, not mathematical scaling like this.

Lancelot for example is currently sitting at Mountain level physically for having the same strength in Rank with Heracles. He goes higher with Arondight, since obvisouly it's an A++ ranking. Also it says he traded blows with Saber, while Saber herself is City level physically. That doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[The_Everlasting]

As I said, we aren't trying to actually calculate anything out of that. Heracles has Mountain level feats, so anyone with A-Rank strength scales to him. We aren't pulling out mathematical equations that make A-Rank strength Mountain level.

And again, there's nothing relating from scaling off of Noble Phantasms like you're proposing.

 

[Reppuzan]

@The Everlasting

Generally, stats have been shown to correlate to power levels fairly well. For example, while under Shirou, Saber had B-Rank Strength and C-Rank Agility and was thus only able to barely keep up with Berserker but traded blows with Lancer (who also has B-Rank Strength) fairly well. Under Rin, she has A-Rank Strength and B-Rank Agility, buffing her to the point that along with her Prana Burst, Shirou stated that Berserker would be wary of taking her head on.

But yeah, we tend to only use this type of power-scaling if they have no other feats of meaningful AP value, which is particularly prominent in Fate/Grand Order given that the graphics and game mechanics prevent an accurate depiction of a Noble Phantasm's destructive value.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

So how exactly is a physically 7-B trading blows comfortably with a physically 7-A?

 

[The_Everlasting]

So how exactly is a physically 7-B trading blows comfortably with a physically 7-A?

I don't understand the question.

@Reppuzan

Yeah, though Scarlet is suggesting to scale regular Parameters off of Excalibur (A Noble Phantasm) and trying to actually bring math into it, which feels very wrong to me despite my limited knowledge of Fate.

 

[LazyHunter]

@ScarletFirefly

Plot, the strongest character not using their full power, the writer not realizing how wide the gap between the two characters actually is, etc...

 

[Reppuzan]

@Scarlet

Well, Saber was far from comfortably trading blows with Lancelot after he pulled out Arondight. In addition, she closes the gap somewhat with Prana Burst.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

So how exactly is a physically 7-B trading blows comfortably with a physically 7-A?

I don't understand the question.

I'm referring to Saber being able to trade blows with both Berserkers, Heracles and Lancelot. She tanked several strikes from Heracles before succumbing. The gap between Mountain level (his AP) and City level (her Dura) wouldn't really make this possible, while with these results this would be feasible.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Scarlet

Well, as I said before, Lancelot was kicking Saber to the curb once Arondight was drawn and each blow from Heracles was bringing her closer and closer to death in the novel, with defeat being considered "inevitable".

It was far from comfortably trading blows on either occasion.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

@Scarlet
Well, as I said before, Lancelot was kicking Saber to the curb once Arondight was drawn and each blow from Heracles was bringing her closer and closer to death in the novel, with defeat being considered "inevitable".

It was far from comfortably trading blows on either occasion.

Didn't she damage Lancelot's armor?

Also wouldn't a 7-B fighting a 7-A warrant a oneshot? Yes she wasn't winning anytime soon, but the fact that she withstood several strikes from him remains.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Scarlet

It was a tiny nick if I remember correctly, but even Rider's Via Expugnatio failed to put much of a dent in Lancelot in the long run.

Saber closes the gap somewhat with her prana burst. If I remember correctly, it offered something close to an extra + to her Strength and Agility Rankings.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

@Reppuzan

Well, depending on where exactly Heracles is standing on the Mountain scale (is there an actual value for it?), wouldn't the Prana Burst make her Durability City level+?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Scarlet

The whole thing about Saber taking one of Berserker's lives didn't happen in the novel. If I recall correctly, she couldn't even nick him during UBW, and only a Broken Phantasm Caladbolg II managed to take off one of his lives.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Yes I know it didn't happen in the novel, but I'm not referring to that part.

I was referring to the fact that she didn't get immediately one shotted from Heracles, but instead tanked several hits from him via Prana Bursts. Her current Durability wouldn't make this possible, so a high end City level would probably make more sense.

 

[KamiYasha]

This is what happends when saber "tanks" a direct hit from Heracles.

Also wouldn't a 7-B fighting a 7-A warrant a oneshot? Yes she wasn't winning anytime soon, but the fact that she withstood several strikes from him remains.

Following that logic would make Saber one shot Sasaski or even Emiya.

Heracles mountain scale comes from: A) Stated that could destroy a mountain. B) deflecting a blast from Excalibur. C) Deflecting Gate Of Babylon's mountain shattering weapons.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kami

Well, Saber did one-shot Sasaki during their final battle in UBW. It was just his parrying and the threat of Tsubame Gaeshi that held her back.

And she did almost one-shot EMIYA with a direct hit on two out of three routes.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

She did block quite a few strikes from him though, that was the final attack that rendered her almost unable to fight anymore, and she didn't really tank that with her armor, just her body. I see your point with Sasaki though.

So the system isn't viable for scaling physical stats. Is it of any use for the NPs though?

 

[KamiYasha]

The system is okay for those who don't have feats. Such like a new servant being added to FGO or so.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

So basically the entirety of F/GO? I haven't played the game but IIRC there are no feats to go from.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Scarlet

Well, there are some feats (i.e. Ars Almadel Salomonis roasting the surface of the planet in past, present, and future). But due to the nature of the game, feats are indeed scarce as a whole.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Wouldn't it be weird though? To use this for Servants that don't have feats, and not use it for Servants that do have feats? There will likely be contradictions.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Scarlet

Well, it's mainly a set of guidelines to fall back on. In Fate/Extra, everyone, even Caster (who has E-Rank Strength) can run up to Saber or Archer and start trading blows with them.

It's not perfect, but due to an overwhelming number of Servants (when only a handful have major plot relevance), it's the best option we've got.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Hmm, that certainly is weird. Maybe the author just doesn't give a fudge about Parameters, or assigns them and then forgets about them -_-