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A Question I guess...

Ss3micah

Ss3micah

4,036
2,670
I want to get the consensus of the default standard of Plot, Information (Type 2) and Conceptual Manipulation Type (2/1). As you would know, these powers in particular of those which can fundamentally govern and control reality and in some verses it is specifically pointed out that one can be higher than another. For Example:

In SMT: Information Manipulation (Type 2) > Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) because all concepts originate from the Collective Unconscious which is made of Quantum Information
In I Was Caught up in a Hero Summoning, but That World Is at Peace: Plot Manipulation > Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) as the plot is what allows concepts to even exist and when the plot ends, so does everything else (concepts included)

My point of bringing up this is because I notice this kind of split in the fandom. Some are under the impression that Plot Manipulation, Information Manipulation (Type 2) and Conceptual Manipulation are equal by default unless the verse specifically treats one as superior to the other while the other half of the Fandom believes that Conceptual Manipulation naturally trumps Information and Plot Manipulation by default unless the verse states overwise. I have seen some arguments that Concept Based Abstract Existence 1 cant be touched by Information Type 2 but those with Information Based Abstract Existence can naturally be destroyed by Conceptual Type 1 because Concept hax stands above Information and Plot by default

Im here to ask you what is the consensus. Are Plot, Information Type 2 and Conceptual Manipulation Type 2/1 considered equal until proven otherwise or does Conceptual Manipulation naturally stands above the two
 
I'm not knowledgable on Information Manipulation Type 2.

As for Plot Manip vs Conceptual Manip, I do think Conceptual is superior. Going by Archie Sonic's situation, the Super Genesis Wave was plot made because Pre-Genesis Wave's concepts couldn't(or wouldn't) be used legally anymore, so the plot had to change for the removal of those concepts.

But thats 1 opinion from me. Generally, I interpret that level of Conceptual, Information, Plot, being equal unless the verse says otherwise.
 
Firestorm808 said:
My opinion is Plot Manip > Conceptual Manip Type 1 and 2 > Information Type 2.
Click to expand...
What about Mandates? Say you have a frachise, and other writers are suppose to write around the concepts. Say, there's a Mario comicbook but the writer isn't allowed to write plot to kill Bowser for good. Wouldn't Bowser's concept protected by mandates of his concept as the main big bad for the franchise limit this new writer's plot?
 
most conceptual manip revision are controversial, so imo by default conceptual manip is superior to those unless proven otherwise....
 
ElixirBlue said:
What about Mandates? Say you have a frachise, and other writers are suppose to write around the concepts. Say, there's a Mario comicbook but the writer isn't allowed to write plot to kill Bowser for good. Wouldn't Bowser's concept protected by mandates of his concept as the main big bad for the franchise limit this new writer's plot?
Click to expand...
That would depend on the "meta" range of the ability.

Normal concept manipulation is limited to the concepts within the story itself.

Normal Plot Manipulation allow you to manipulate the concepts within the story and more.

Going into meta levels takes things even further, like manipulating the plot of the world of the writer, etc.
 
Ss3micah said:
I want to get the consensus of the default standard of Plot, Information (Type 2) and Conceptual Manipulation Type (2/1). As you would know, these powers in particular of those which can fundamentally govern and control reality and in some verses it is specifically pointed out that one can be higher than another. For Example:

In SMT: Information Manipulation (Type 2) > Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) because all concepts originate from the Collective Unconscious which is made of Quantum Information
In I Was Caught up in a Hero Summoning, but That World Is at Peace: Plot Manipulation > Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) as the plot is what allows concepts to even exist and when the plot ends, so does everything else (concepts included)

My point of bringing up this is because I notice this kind of split in the fandom. Some are under the impression that Plot Manipulation, Information Manipulation (Type 2) and Conceptual Manipulation are equal by default unless the verse specifically treats one as superior to the other while the other half of the Fandom believes that Conceptual Manipulation naturally trumps Information and Plot Manipulation by default unless the verse states overwise. I have seen some arguments that Concept Based Abstract Existence 1 cant be touched by Information Type 2 but those with Information Based Abstract Existence can naturally be destroyed by Conceptual Type 1 because Concept hax stands above Information and Plot by default

Im here to ask you what is the consensus. Are Plot, Information Type 2 and Conceptual Manipulation Type 2/1 considered equal until proven otherwise or does Conceptual Manipulation naturally stands above the two
Click to expand...
usually, plot stands above these, but this really depends of the verse, some verses have CM and Info type 2 being almost the same thing, so i dont think that we can have a default answer
 
What's stronger is decided by the verse, to put it simply. If they say concepts are stronger then they are.
In a hypothetical vacuum, Plot Manipulation of the same potency as other powers will always be inherently stronger because all other powers exist within the plot and not the other way around.

For example, if two characters from completely different verses have Concept Manipulation and Plot Manipulation respectively, but their peaks are both turning someone into an apple or an orange respectively, then I would say that the plot manipulation would take precedence and turn them into an orange if there was a conflict regarding this.

Again, though, this is purely in a hypothetical vacuum which often doesn't exists, and really just my opinion. Context and examples will typically sway what's better.
 
Plot > concept > info in general. However, from verse perspective... That's different. But you know, after thinking about it, essentially plot is always the most op - yeah, sure the verse treats it like that... But in most cases, that plot hax is weak. So, imo, plot dominates everything.
 
Fixxed said:
I would says they equal by default. I think you should read this

In my mind plot can be govern by concept or vice versa. I mean every story/plot follow the genre of the story, if the genre is action than the plot will be action, and yeah genre is a form or concept
Click to expand...
That would be a concept from a meta level outside the story. It depends on the range of your concept manipulation.
 
Firestorm808 said:
That would be a concept from a meta level outside the story. It depends on the range of your concept manipulation.
Click to expand...
Yeah, i mean if they in the fullpotential

And i think plot is same too, plot just control the event in reality, not control they fundamental aspect too. So case by case
 
Yeah, usually the application of plot manipulation In mainstream media is controlling event in reality same like fate manipulation.

But Concept is more abstract imo, usually involved in philosophy or metaphysics literature. Or even "Mathematical Concept".

i guess the way plot and concept portrayed in mainstreams media gives impression of different power level.

en.wikipedia.org

Plot (narrative) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

en.wikipedia.org

Concept - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
There are concept in-verse (one that particular only take concepts in definition of verse). In this particular narrative are above them as (concept) in this case would have to take part in narrative that had been written.

Either that or we take literally concept per its definition which would subsequently make narrative itself as one of them. Of course, this take it out of original purpose within the narrative.
 
NIK_FARIS said:
There are concept in-verse (one that particular only take concepts in definition of verse). In this particular narrative are above them as (concept) in this case would have to take part in narrative that had been written.
Click to expand...
Yeah and the plot it self is plot in-verse not the verse's plot. So you must have proof for says the plot also govern the fundamental aspect too. By default plot and concept are equal
 
I feel like "Concept" is easier and simpler than "Plot" when explaining very high tiering and power levels stuff. For example you don't need story to explain concept of Icarus cardinal, type 4 multiverse, and apophatic theology. Which means Concept "can be" independent from story (at least in default using formal definition)

while plot is always tied to a story or narrative.
 
Fixxed said:
In my mind plot can be govern by concept or vice versa. I mean every story/plot follow the genre of the story, if the genre is action than the plot will be action, and yeah genre is a form or concept
Click to expand...
I found this comment in particular very interesting and would like to say this:

I think what your arguing here is Meta Concepts
Like Genres of Fictional Works
Which I dont think can be used since no character i know can affect meta concepts and change the very genre of their series


I get that your saying
Basically, your arguing that it Genres are Concepts (Or at least act like Concepts) And the plot is written to fit these specific concepts chosen.

Sorta Like how DB is of the Martial Arts Genre (Martial Arts being the Concept) and the Plot is Written around the Genre (Concept) of Martial Arts. However this cannot be reasonable applied to Characters nor Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation itself because no fictional character has ever display this level of meta concept hax of changing the very Genre of Fiction they are inhabiting.

Also another point I would like to bring up is that Genres themselves do little to nothing to build or Govern the World like the plot does. Genres act more like influencers in a way. They determine what the plots main theme and aesthetic will be based around but does nothing to actually build the world or govern it itself. The Plot created the story and narrative and essentially gives life to the world, the cosmology, the characters and everything else. It determines every action, every build up, the beginning and the ending. So While the Plot asserts complete control of the Verse and everything that can, has and will occur, the Genre is more of an arching idea that exists that the plot writes itself to fit but the Genre itself poses no command nor control

In essence Im saying the Genre would be an influencer as to realities over arching central theme would be while the plot would take command in building the world, settings, events, characters and story
Both essentially go hand in hand, working together without either having dominance or control over the other
 
But all in all
Can I assume that all should be equal until proven otherwise is the general consensus?

Plot = Info 2 = Concept 1?
 
Ss3micah said:
I found this comment in particular very interesting and would like to say this:

I think what your arguing here is Meta Concepts
Like Genres of Fictional Works
Which I dont think can be used since no character i know can affect meta concepts and change the very genre of their series


I get that your saying
Basically, your arguing that it Genres are Concepts (Or at least act like Concepts) And the plot is written to fit these specific concepts chosen.

Sorta Like how DB is of the Martial Arts Genre (Martial Arts being the Concept) and the Plot is Written around the Genre (Concept) of Martial Arts. However this cannot be reasonable applied to Characters nor Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation itself because no fictional character has ever display this level of meta concept hax of changing the very Genre of Fiction they are inhabiting.

Also another point I would like to bring up is that Genres themselves do little to nothing to build or Govern the World like the plot does. Genres act more like influencers in a way. They determine what the plots main theme and aesthetic will be based around but does nothing to actually build the world or govern it itself. The Plot created the story and narrative and essentially gives life to the world, the cosmology, the characters and everything else. It determines every action, every build up, the beginning and the ending. So While the Plot asserts complete control of the Verse and everything that can, has and will occur, the Genre is more of an arching idea that exists that the plot writes itself to fit but the Genre itself poses no command nor control

In essence Im saying the Genre would be an influencer as to realities over arching central theme would be while the plot would take command in building the world, settings, events, characters and story
Both essentially go hand in hand, working together without either having dominance or control over the other
Click to expand...
Is not mean, it not exist. Everything can happen in fiction

Story follow genre, and story is reality it self but in more fundamental level. So genre is built world too
 
Vietthai96 said:
This is sematic arguing, using real world definition, however if our real world is just a simulation or a story, concept born from us is < plot that govern our world
Click to expand...
Ahh that just concept in mental, not abstrack concept. Even plato says form (concept) is more real than reality, reality just shadow that shaped by the form
 
Fixxed said:
Ahh that just concept in mental, not abstrack concept. Even plato says form (concept) is more real than reality, reality just shadow that shaped by the form
Click to expand...
1. I don't care about Plato, because he again is just another human created his own form of philosophy about concept, and i don't take his word as universal truth, since
2. everything born from mental is abstract in nature, concept is just one of these abstract. Philosophy is also abstract, thus Plato's concept is not above reality either
 
Vietthai96 said:
1. I don't care about Plato, because he again is just another human created his own form of philosophy about concept, and i don't take his word as universal truth, since
2. everything born from mental is abstract in nature, concept is just one of these abstract. Philosophy is also abstract, thus Plato's concept is not above reality either
Click to expand...
Yeah and story it self born from human mind, human think, human write some fiction, and story appear

And i think you dont understand what i mean
 
Vietthai96 said:
This is sematic arguing, using real world definition, however if our real world is just a simulation or a story, concept born from us is < plot that govern our world
Click to expand...
Sadly our real world is simulation theory is still hypothesis or probably become something that Unfalsifiable
 
NIK_FARIS said:
There are concept in-verse (one that particular only take concepts in definition of verse). In this particular narrative are above them as (concept) in this case would have to take part in narrative that had been written.

Either that or we take literally concept per its definition which would subsequently make narrative itself as one of them. Of course, this take it out of original purpose within the narrative.
Click to expand...
s it from maoh gakuin or what verse is it from
 
Per default they should be incomparable to each other IMO.
 
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