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A question about Eru Illuvatar

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It has probably been answered before (or at least I think it has and I might have missed it), but I still want to ask. Eru Ilúvatar is Tier 0 on this wiki, but doesn’t a character need to have no connection to any locations or not exist within them at all to qualify as Tier 0?

But I remember that Eru Ilúvatar has a place where he resides, and that he made decisions there while the Ainur were performing their music:
Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

But now llúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of llúvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with llúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.

Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Ilúvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.

Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Then again llúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others.
For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of llúvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.

In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of llúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of llúvatar, the Music ceased.

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am llúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger. But llúvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him.

But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music!
Aren’t these elements that would disqualify a character from being Tier 0? If so, has any explanation been given for this? If there has, could someone share a link to where that explanation was made? Or are these points something that could be used as valid arguments for a Tier 0 downgrade thread?
 
I think this is you taking stuff in a creation myth a bit too literally. Creation myths tend to anthropomorphize stuff for the reader.
Essentially this.

It's made clear throughout Tolkien's notes, letters, story, etc that, despite the creation myth of the Silmarillion describing the Ainur as in the same residence as Eru, Eru is as infinitely remote to even them as Eru is to humans or elves.
 
Essentially this.

It's made clear throughout Tolkien's notes, letters, story, etc that, despite the creation myth of the Silmarillion describing the Ainur as in the same residence as Eru, Eru is as infinitely remote to even them as Eru is to humans or elves.
What I meant wasn't Eru's infinite difference in distance from the Ainur. It was about residing in a realm. Could you explain it a bit more specifically? Also, I would be very happy if you could take a look at the message I wrote privately.
 
What I meant wasn't Eru's infinite difference in distance from the Ainur. It was about residing in a realm. Could you explain it a bit more specifically? Also, I would be very happy if you could take a look at the message I wrote privately.
It's important to remember that Eru is omnipresent despite also being infinitely remote, much like other Tier 0s.

He's quite literally meant to be a stand-in/personal view of the Catholic conception of God.

Therefore, much akin to religious texts speaking of the "Face of God" despite such a thing being unknowable and beyond understanding.

Oh, and sorry about not responding. I'm just not as active here as I used to be.
 
It's important to remember that Eru is omnipresent despite also being infinitely remote, much like other Tier 0s.

He's quite literally meant to be a stand-in/personal view of the Catholic conception of God.

Therefore, much akin to religious texts speaking of the "Face of God" despite such a thing being unknowable and beyond understanding.

Oh, and sorry about not responding. I'm just not as active here as I used to be.
Better late than difficult. Thanks. 🙂
 
Essentially this.

It's made clear throughout Tolkien's notes, letters, story, etc that, despite the creation myth of the Silmarillion describing the Ainur as in the same residence as Eru, Eru is as infinitely remote to even them as Eru is to humans or elves.
I think this is you taking stuff in a creation myth a bit too literally. Creation myths tend to anthropomorphize stuff for the reader.
But there are questions though.

Tier 0 mustn’t have potentiality meanwhile let’s see this

I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety
LETTER 153

Eru having "infinity of his potential variety" suggests he has potentiality which is a potential contradiction to Tier 0
 
But there are questions though.

Tier 0 mustn’t have potentiality meanwhile let’s see this

I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety
LETTER 153

Eru having "infinity of his potential variety" suggests he has potentiality which is a potential contradiction to Tier 0
If I'm reading correctly this isn't saying that Eru himself has potential to be fulfilled but sub-creation is an expression of the infinite variety that he has access to that do not exist in actuality but could be actualized (as in there are possible creations and that what is currently created does not exhaust all that is possible). Basically just an expression or tribute to his infinite creative power hence why it's called "sub-creation".
 
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But there are questions though.

Tier 0 mustn’t have potentiality meanwhile let’s see this

I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety
LETTER 153
It's not that Eru has infinite potentiality, Eru being unchanging as is stated repeatedly, but that there are an infinity of potentials that can be achieved in tribute to Eru.

Like MGQ says, Sub-creators can only sub-create through the channels Eru has used/can use which are infinite. Thus there are an infinity of potentials beyond just what exists. Hence fiction is a form of sub-creation, as it does jot exist in reality but can exist because it is achievable through Eru.

Eru is fundamentally unchanging afterall, but his creations are not.
 
If I'm reading correctly this isn't saying that Eru himself has potential to be fulfilled but sub-creation is an expression of the infinite variety that he has access to that do not exist in actuality but could be actualized (as in there are possible creations and that what is currently created does not exhaust all that is possible). Basically just an expression or tribute to his infinite creative power hence why it's called "sub-creation".
Hmmm... I see... But there is also a question if evil were a privation of good in LOTR then why are there book of lost tales and morgoths rings statements stating things that might imply possible duality between Melkor and Eru? if you can properly answer this then perhaps Tier 0 is fine
 
Hmmm... I see... But there is also a question if evil were a privation of good in LOTR then why are there book of lost tales and morgoths rings statements stating things that might imply possible duality between Melkor and Eru? if you can properly answer this then perhaps Tier 0 is fine
There flatout is no duality. Morgoth is a creation of Eru and little more. I don’t really have anything to add beyond that.
 
There flatout is no duality. Morgoth is a creation of Eru and little more. I don’t really have anything to add beyond that.
That doesnt directly imply that duality is absent like for example: Spirit created Physic but they are dual to eachother

And Morgoth being the greatest power excluding Eru

Also where Melkor was the opposite of Erus theme (possible duality)
 
That doesnt directly imply that duality is absent like for example: Spirit created Physic but they are dual to eachother

And Morgoth being the greatest power excluding Eru

Also where Melkor was the opposite of Erus theme (possible duality)
Eru being the greatest power except Eru doesn't make a duality.

All derives from Eru, including Morgoth. There is no equality or opposition, everything Morgoth does is, as is said in the Silmarillion, merely part of Eru's design in the end.

This isn't DC comics Lucifer and the Presence, this is more Paradise Lost (not a perfect analogy, but the point is that the Devil is nowhere near a threat as he says)
 
It's fundamentally not that though. Morgoth derives from and is contingent on Eru. There is no reverse.
Please i would like to see the scans if you can give them to me

(The contingency wasn't referring to morgoth in nome btw it was referring to creation)
 
Please i would like to see the scans if you can give them to me

(The contingency wasn't referring to morgoth in nome btw it was referring to creation)
It's on page, literally everything is contingent on Eru.





He is quite literally Tolkien's conception of the Catholic view of God where all is contingent on God.
 
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