A Question about a Multiversal+ Feat

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hey everyone. There's something that I have been wondering.

At the end of Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne, the Demi-Fiend kills Kagutsuchi, and as a result the entire Amala Network explodes. Lucifer later explains to the Demi-Fiend that "Time has met her death", meaning that all of time in the multiverse was also destroyed.

This is an obvious 2-A feat.

However, I realized something that might make it a lot more impressive:

In the beginning of the game, the characters read a cult prophecy fortolding the events of the game:

"I speak to my disciples-- In the future I see the destruction of the Sangai. When the sound of the revolving drum reaches the ends of the universe, the Eastern Palace will enter into the Taizo with glory. The people of the world will become as red souls through Daihi, and the throng of demons will follow this transformation. The secret master will stand before the souls' Renge and announce a Kotowari. This will become the Law of the Creation of the world. "
— From Book 4, Section 24 of the Miroku Scripture
"In the future I see the destruction of the Sangai."

What the hell is Sangai?

Well, Sangai (õ©ëþòî lit. Meaning "Three Worlds") is a Buddhist concept that represents the three aspects of time, the Past, Present and Future Existences. This is a prophecy given to humans by the Buddha Miroku (Also known as Maitreya), and it is fortelling the apocalyptic events of the game and the eventual destruction of time by the Demi-Fiend.

However, it reveals that the Demi-Fiend didn't just destroy the multiverse by killing Kagutsuchi, it destroyed the multiverse across time. It never existed, exists or will exist, it is simply gone.

This is already more impressive than simply destroying multiple universes, but even more impressive is the fact that in Nocturne it is explained that every universe has an endless cycle of Creation, Destruction and Recreation. The universe is creation, dies at the end of its life and is then reborn, and this goes on forever (A very Hindu idea).

Since the death of Kagutsuchi literally destroyed everything the multiverse ever was, is and would be, this means that all incarnations of each of the infinite universes were destroyed. Meaning that the Demi-Fiend literally destroyed infinite * infinite universes.

Would this still be a 2-A feat or qualify for High 2-A?

 

[Schnee_One]

The multiverse itself is 2A, the multiverse and all it's timelines is High 2A.

 

[VenomElite]

The multiverse itself is 2A, the multiverse and all it's timelines is High 2A.

That doesn't make sense.

 

[Schnee_One]

1000 Universes=Multiverse=2A

1000 Universes and infinite timelines=High 2A

Or am I missing something?

 

[VenomElite]

It's still 2-A.

To reach High 2-A the multiverse must have a measurement of five dimensions. This tier is reserved for an uncountably infinite number of universes within 5-D space, which size is greater than 0.

 

[Schnee_One]

Ah.

 

[VenomElite]

@Gargoyle

1001 universes is 2-B.

 

[Sera_EX]

>3+1-dimensional universe

>5-dimensional axis allows the existence of infinite timelines but their size on that axis is 0.

>5-dimensional structure allows the existence of infinite timelines however this time, their size is greater than 0.

Low 2-C, 2-C through 2-A, and High 2-A.

It's still 2-A unless the multiverse is outright 5-D and if it is, and there's multiple versions of it, it exists on a 6-D axis and potentially qualifies for Low 1-C, but I am not particularly certain if a 6-D axis qualifies as Low 1-C.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

SMT has multiple Multiverses, yes, and the demons can move between them so there is a 5D Axis.

 

[VenomElite]

If it's just an axis, then it's 2-A. At least going by the definition of 2-A.

 

[Schnee_One]

@Gargoyle

1001 universes is 2-B.

-_-

Never again.....

 

[KiraKQ]

Þ½©Òü«Õú░Þü×Òü½ÕæèÒüÉ´╝ì

This I deliver to the sravakas

µêæÒü»µ£¬µØÑõ©ûÒü½µû╝ÒüäÒüª õ©ëþòîÒü«µ╗àÒü│ÒéïÒéÆÞªïÒüƒÒéèÒÇé

I saw the end of Trailokya in the future world

µ£¬µØÑõ©û(that's supposed to mean like the world after samsara)

Þ╝¬Þ╗óÒü«Ú╝ôÒÇüÕìüµû╣õ©ûþòîÒü½ÕàÂÒü«Úƒ│ÒéƵ╝öÒü╣ÒéîÒü░

For the drum of samsara echoes loudly throughout the world that is of ten directions

Õìüµû╣õ©ûþòî(there are 10 directions in Buddhism, apparently so this which is read jipposekai mean the whole world)

µØ▒Òü«Õ««µ«┐ÒÇüÕàëµÿÄÒéÆÒééÒüúÒüªÞâÄÞöÁÒü½ÕàÑÒéïÒÇé

The palace of East, under great light, enters the world that is womb

(ÞâÄÞöÁ is the womb realm in Tantric Buddhism, and that's supposed to be the Vortex world)

ÞíåþöƒÒü»Õñºµé▓Òü½Òüª ÞÁñÒüìÚ£èÒü¿Òü¬ÒéèÒÇü

The unenlightened man under great sorrow and compassion becomes half-man half-devil

Þ½©Ú¡öÒü» µ¡ñÒéÆÞ┐¢ÒüåÒüîÕªéÒüÅÒü½Õç║ÒüÑÒÇé

The hordes of Evil comes and join him

Ú£èÒü«Þô«Þè▒Òü½þºÿÕ»åõ©╗Òü»þ½ïÒüí þÉåÒéÆþñ║þÅ¥ÒüÖÒÇé

The principles are incarnated by Vajrasattva in the birth of spirit

(þÉå was translated into Reason but apparently it means the principles of the world, so I used principle instead)

µÿ»ÒéîÕì│ÒüíÕëÁõ©ûÒü«µ│òÒü¬Òéè´╝ìÒÇé

And created is the new world.

From Book 4, Section 24 of the Miroku Scriptures

https://streamable.com/o0yzj


I've always interpreted the Sangai to be referring to just one vortex world and it's planes. As the Prophecy only predicts the conception for Demi Fiends world. Anyone is free to translate the raws themselves.


Thoughts on this?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Clean the post coding. It's night unreadable.

And I disagree with it. Sangai here is referring to time.

 

[KiraKQ]

Clean the post coding. It's night unreadable.
And I disagree with it. Sangai here is referring to time.

There's no evidence the scripture is referring to all of the multiverses time. The scriptures are from a single vortex world from a cult. You literally just took it from the SMT wiki, I translated it myself. And the womb world in the scripture supports my theory. The whole passage is speaking about the conception of a single vortex world and the Demi Fiend that would be born from it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The evidence is in the game. At the end of the game Multiversal time is destroyed, and this is a prophecy predicting that.

 

[VenomElite]

I'd rather not debate my religion here. Though SMT is quite faithful to Buddhism, the cosmologies are not comparable.

 

[KiraKQ]

The evidence is in the game. At the end of the game Multiversal time is destroyed, and this is a prophecy predicting that.

http://i.imgur.com/bScFgSK.png

Even the wiki you took the translation from agrees with me. It's talking about a single vortex world/ universe. Even if we took this interpretation/translation as fact, it's only referring to the "Sangai" of a single universe/world.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'd rather not debate my religion here. Though SMT is quite faithful to Buddhism, the cosmologies are not comparable.

Evil Maitreya who is an avatar of Mithra really shows that SMT can play loose with religious lore.

Yes, the verse is the most faithful to mythology fiction that I have ever seen, but they aren't 100% faithful to it.

This is the same argument I see from people saying that SMT is the most powerful verse ever because omnipotent creator gods like YHVH, Brahman and Azathoth is in it.

 

[VenomElite]

So...what's the argument here? Either it's 2-A or High 2-A, what do single universes have to do with anything?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because it shows that each universe has infinite varying incarnations, and Kagutsuchi's death destroys all universes in past, present and future.

 

[VenomElite]

That's 2-A.

 

[Kirbin]

In The Amala Universe time & space are melded together , and Vortex World's have 31 planes and 3 of those are beyond infinite space so killing Kagutsuchi simultaneously destroyed a beyond infinite multiverse at every point in space and time, this is beyond 2-A, it's larger than a standard multiverse and it was destroyed in beyond infinite locations simultaneously.

 

[VenomElite]

"Beyond infinite space"

You mean a universe? That's an infinite space. And what do you mean destroyed beyond an infinite multiverse? An infinite multiverse is High 2-A, destroying beyond that is either Low 1-C or some undefined greater magnitude of High 2-A.

 

[Kirbin]

"Beyond infinite space"
You mean a universe? That's an infinite space. And what the heck do you mean destroyed beyond an infinite multiverse? An infinite multiverse is High 2-A, destroying beyond that is either Low 1-C or some undefined greater magnitude of High 2-A.

Then it's 1-C by this definition, there are infinite Vortex World's and all of them have planes beyond infinite space, this lists all the planes in one Vortex World and you can clearly see that there are planes that go beyond infinite space. So there are infinite numbers of Worlds that exist beyond infinite space in the Amala Universe. Also destroying all of time and destroying all of space is the same in the Amala Universe so how is this not at least 1-C? Given that Kagatsuchi dying destroyed a multiverse made up of universes that contain beyond infinite space.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Right, well the vortex world was stated to be a layered world based on cosmologies with lower planes in an interview. I know nothing about 31 planes though...

Also, an infinite multiverse as an infinitesimal 5 dimensional object. To increase this infinite would obviously be a 5 dimensional structure.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Link the interview.

 

[KiraKQ]

Also this is the direct translation of "µêæÒü»µ£¬µØÑõ©ûÒü½µû╝ÒüäÒüª õ©ëþòîÒü«µ╗àÒü│ÒéïÒéÆÞªïÒüƒÒéè."

http://i.imgur.com/wEC9Lz2.png

 

[KiraKQ]

https://megatengaku.wordpress.com/readings/interviews/1up-shin-megami-tensei-nocturne/


"Kaneko: This is a very frequently asked question, but the most difficult one to answer. I'm sure they all are influenced by something, but it's difficult to say exactly what. Once the theme of a game has been decided, I take everything I've come across in my life and synchronize it with that theme.

For Nocturne, I thought that the bubble structure of the universe which has been discussed in cosmology and the Gnostic view of the universe as a structure with multiple spheres were very similar. I added the hollow earth theory, and the Vortex Universe/World concept was born."

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This confirms that the SMT universes have alternate dimensions connected to it.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Thanks KiraQ

 

[KiraKQ]

Another one


https://megatengaku.wordpress.com/readings/interviews/nocturne-guide-interview/


"(Gideon Zhi) What gave you the idea for the inverted Vortex World, and why did you choose this over other possible,more traditional world designs?

We chose this design because we didn't think any other game had used it, and because we thought that when presenting a strange world, you can't just make unusual structures within it to represent that, but you need to make the world itself unusual.

Now, as for the reason why we decided on the inverted Earth idea, there were a number of inspirations. It was like the galaxy-bubble creation formulated by the Gnostics in the earliest science, like the hollow earth theory and space colony construction of early science and sci-fi, and it was like observations on the shape of the universe based on quantum physics and the Hannya Shingyo (the Heart of the Wisdom Sutra, part of the Maha Prajfia Paramita Sutra (Great Wisdom Sutra), which is one of the greatest Sutras in Buddhism. -ed.).

At a glance, these things have nothing to do with each other, but if you think a bit, they have a lot in common, so you may want to look into these if you're interested. Like the Manikins mentioned earlier, there are a lot of metaphors in the Vortex World. Incidentally, there is an energy conservation law in place concerning the contents of the Vortex, so for example if one Manikin dies (terminates), another is born (begins) without a moment's hesitation. Due to this construction, the Reason war is inevitable. In the same way a substance can change between solid, liquid, gas, and plasma, the Vortex is also trying to change its form, but the result may be that it knows only its Reason. The original plan was to make the Vortex like a battlefield for you to run around in. You could see into the distant horizon, and if you look up into the sky you can make out terrain features and houses way in the distance. We thought this would certainly be a dynamic spectacle, but it made the game respond poorly so we put that aside. I hope we'll be able to do it some day. -Kaneko

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That is purely metaphorical.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I found something interesting in Devil Summoner:

"Furthermore God tried to call the soul of the dead girl to heaven...soul who lost the visit has fallen into various space-time skies"

Basically heaven exists on a higher plane compared to the multiverse.

ÒüòÒéëÒü½þÑ×Òü»µ¡╗ÒüùÒüƒÕ░æÕÑ│Òü«Ú¡éÒéÆ）Õñ®Òü½Õæ╝Òü│Õ»äÒüøÒéêÒüåÒü¿ÒüùÒüƒ

ÞíîÒüìÕá┤ÒéÆÕñ▒ÒüúÒüƒÚ¡éÒü»ÒÇüµºÿÒÇàÒü¬µÖéþ®║Òü©Òü¿µòúÒüúÒüªÒüùÒü¥ÒüúÒüƒ

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

She fell from heaven and into the multiverse? Interesting, makes sense since even after the Amala is destroyed, Heaven remains.

This is no way, shape or form makes angels 5D, tho.

 

[KiraKQ]

It doesn't, it just supports my claim that there are higher planes.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Technically there's no reason for us to scale the top tiers to the Amala considering Baal Avatar killed Noah who transcends the Amala.

This is actually already linked in the profile.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He doesn't, he was just banished.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Ah,never mind then.

 

[KiraKQ]

Noah just exists outside of the Amala Universe. It never said he transcended it.


http://imgur.com/a/q4Fw2

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Beyond and transcendence usually go hand in hand but I was not aware of the context.