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Low 1-C Upgrade (sf)

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Richard5128pm

Richard5128pm

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The shadow fight multiverse in the Underworld continuity is 2-B (with kali mentioning innumerable planes and titan conquering those worlds, universes in this context), however, with the introduction of characters like Architect and Puppeteer in the underworld special events, the verse can reach low 1-C.

Architect originates from the "Real World" which exists above the cosmology of Shadow Fight 2, where Shadow Fight 2 is a work of fiction and Architect is the Author, from where Architect can essentially delete the game if he wishes so. Enough to place him and the "Real world" at low 1-C. In the event, we see him invading the world of Shadow Fight 2 by breaking the fourth wall, creating a pathway from his soundstage to the world of sf2 through which he is able to walk into Shadow Fight 2 and interact with his creation (the main characters), where he is ultimately defeated by shadow when he states that he has grown bored with his creation and plans on rewriting the entirety of sf2 if shadow fails to surprise him, after which architect wonders if shadow no longer belongs to his creator and has taken a life of his own. Soon after, he makes Shadow talk with his powers before leaving, showing us that he didn't necessarily get weaker as he entered through the broken 4th wall. Architect still has his "Author-like" powers while he's still in-game, as there's no avatar creation, he walks straight into the game from his soundstage (real world)

Argument: Architect got weaker when he entered sf2 via dimensional manipulation.

Counter argument: The notifications in which architect threatens the player with the deletion of the game were sent while the event was on-going (while architect was in game), two things can be observed; Architect can still directly challenge and threaten the player, and potentially delete the game altogether if he just wishes so.

Some additional info - Architect was able to force words into puppeteer's mouth (Architect's inner monologue).

Now, it could mean that Shadow temporarily gets to low 1-C via Reality Equalisation, due to the nature of where the fight takes place, where the fourth wall (barrier between the "real world" and the fictional world of sf2) is broken. As RE is closely related to R>F T.

Conclusion:

Architect - Low 1-C

Shadow - Low 2-C (defeated Tenebris), Low 1-C with Reality Equalization (Can trade blows with Architect)

Tenebris and other Underworld characters - Low 2-C

Tenebris 2-B Upgrade.
 
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disagree for Low1-C fra.

I don't see much evidence supporting it being Low 1-C, other than the creators calling the characters in sf2 fiction. But 2-B looks fine for cosmology.
 
Richard5128pm said:
The shadow fight multiverse in the Underworld continuity is 2-B (with kali mentioning innumerable planes and titan conquering those worlds, universes in this context), however, with the introduction of characters like Architect and Puppeteer in the underworld special events, the verse can reach low 1-C.
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I wouldn't bother with those two statements to prove that the cosmology of the Underworld continuity is 2-B, since

1. By the time Act VII of SF2 rolled out, the word "planes" had no implication of being anything close to a 2-C structure like it does in SF3, which started using that word in its english localization around 3 years later when Part 2 of Chapter VII released. To say the SF2 writers just knew exactly that the word "planes" meant multiple 2-C structures when they weren't even close back then to writing SF3's Part 2 of Chapter VII is really reaching.

2. The giant scale of conquering multiple 2-C structures would be contradicted by the fact that Titan is only ever seen eyeing planets and their natural resources for his conquest, not multiversal bubbles. The Shadow World is just a planet (and he fought tooth and nail to conquer it). Earth is just a planet (and he died trying to conquer it). Seeker's library exists on, well, a planet which Titan intentionally ignored because it suffered a catastrophe and thus it was useless to him (which implies that if the planet didn't get btfo'd, he would've went ahead to conquer it). What I'm trying to say is that Titan never once looked at an entire multiverse and decided to just conquer it in one go, like he otherwise would with a planet. He never once looked at Earth and told Shadow that his homeworld's multiverse would be a great addition to his collection, only that Earth would be.

3. Titan is incapable of using Dimensional Travel. This one's a no-brainer. In fact, it's the whole reason why he even had beef with Shadow to begin with. Titan spawned Gates of Shadows on multiple Earths from alternate timelines to create a perfect vessel for Shadow Energy. Shadow was the successful test subject, having gained the ability to walk between the worlds (aka through the Gates) without, well, dying in the process. And Titan exclusively wanted to steal Shadow's energy in order to gain this ability so he could then continue his conquest in other universes via the Gates. So tell me, how would a guy incapable of Dimensional Travel conquer multiple 2-C structures to begin with? Don't bore me with an "his armies did it for him" answer.

But because this here is the Undeworld continuity we're talking about, you're in luck ! From the russian version of SF2, we know that Titan conducted experiments on a thousand Earths from alternate timelines, making the verse peak 2-C, and barely breaking the limit into 2-B if we add the separate universe in which the Shadow World exists to the list. This had nothing to do with the Underworld continuity, but it adds more weight to the following Underworld "cosmology feat". Countess claims that she experienced her fight against Shadow countless times - in each one emerging victorious. If it wasn't obvious already, Countess fought multiple post-Titan fight Shadows from countless separate timelines, and what does each of those separate timelines contain? Exactly 1001 universes. So we're talking about a cosmology of countless amounts of timelines, each containing 1001 universes. Not quite 2-A, but mayhaps a pretty solid 2-B.
Richard5128pm said:
Architect originates from the "Real World" which exists above the cosmology of Shadow Fight 2, where Shadow Fight 2 is a work of fiction and Architect is the Author, from where Architect can essentially delete the game if he wishes so. Enough to place him and the "Real world" at low 1-C. In the event, we see him invading the world of Shadow Fight 2 by breaking the fourth wall, creating a pathway from his soundstage to the world of sf2 through which he is able to walk into Shadow Fight 2 and interact with his creation (the main characters), where he is ultimately defeated by shadow when he states that he has grown bored with his creation and plans on rewriting the entirety of sf2 if shadow fails to surprise him, after which architect wonders if shadow no longer belongs to his creator and has taken a life of his own. Soon after, he makes Shadow talk with his powers before leaving, showing us that he didn't necessarily get weaker as he entered through the broken 4th wall.
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I'll let the rest of the forum come to a conclusion on this. In my heart he is Low 1-C, but Shadow defeating him is a huge turn-off.

Richard5128pm said:
Now, it could mean that Shadow temporarily gets to low 1-C via Dimensional Manipulation via Breaking the Fourth Wall (due to the nature of where the fight takes place, where the fourth wall is broken). Which would make this similar to Yakko Warner's case.
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My problem with this is that it's a huge reach without any in-game statements to clearly back it up. It feels too much like something made up to be used as a band-aid for the huge inconsistency that is Architect getting his ass get in a fight against Shadow. And if Shadow truly "get real"'d during the event, how would you explain Architect being able to effortlessly use his Plot Manipulation on Shadow to make him talk right after Shadow beat him. The 4th Wall was still broken at that moment, Architect was still in Shadow Fight 2, and I'm pretty sure his Plot Manipulation is reserved for his fictional characters, not those who exist on the same level as him (otherwise he'd write his audience into liking whatever content he puts out, or well do anything else with it in his world).

Richard5128pm said:
In Vk, We can see puppeteer taking over the administration's official account (translated) when they are busy with more important matters (original), to explain the Underworld lore in more detail to us (the readers), it is unlikely for a fictional character to interact with / leave a mark on the real world like this (using the official account of the administration).
Which could mean Puppeteer too would temporarily get to low 1-C via Dimensional Manipulation (with Data Manipulation).
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Puppeteer I'm kind of neutral on him, mostly because clearly his VK feat is a gag, but on the other hand his strange close relation to Architect in the event's story would imply that he does have some form of access to such power level. He's also the one who announces Architect's arrival in Shadow Fight 2, which could simply just be Architect writing him to say that, but I regress.
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
My problem with this is that it's a huge reach without any in-game statements to clearly back it up. It feels too much like something made up to be used as a band-aid for the huge inconsistency that is Architect getting his ass get in a fight against Shadow. And if Shadow truly "get real"'d during the event, how would you explain Architect being able to effortlessly use his Plot Manipulation on Shadow to make him talk right after Shadow beat him. The 4th Wall was still broken at that moment, Architect was still in Shadow Fight 2, and I'm pretty sure his Plot Manipulation is reserved for his fictional characters, not those who exist on the same level as him (otherwise he'd write his audience into liking whatever content he puts out, or well do anything else with it in his world).
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While there's this one against a Low 1-C shadow, there're atleast 3 other arguments that supports low 1-C shadow.

1) Architect walks straight through the broken 4th wall straight from his soundstage to the fictional world of shadow fight 2 (meaning he probably didn't create a lower avatar of himself), considering how he is described and what he's capable of doing and where he's from (the real world), this must logically mean shadow too is atleast temporarily Low 1-C somehow, dimensional manipulation is what the I'm able to boil it down to.

2) In the event, None of the characters mention the broken 4th wall, which opens up the possibility that puppeteer and sensei don't even see the broken 4th wall as fictional characters, the only fictional character who sees the broken 4th wall and perceive the "real world" beyond it is shadow, during the fight. Which would support his dimensional manipulation at the site of battle.

3) If we look at a case similar to this (Yakko's case), Yakko was able to "pull" the animator from the real world into the fictional world (low 1-C level ap feat), while he was still vulnerable to plot hax, so shadow being vulnerable might not cancel his dimensional manipulation. After all, Architect himself doubts if shadow belongs to him anymore (after he gets defeated) until he uses his plot hax on shadow, after which he gains his confidence back, so it could be that shadow only got physically stronger while still being vulnerable to his writer's hax (just like Yakko in that clip), Architect's plot hax is reserved for his fictional characters regardless.

It it true that there is no direct in-game statement to back this up, but this is best conclusion / explanation I was able to come up with, about Shadow being able to beat Architect. Without cancelling r>f transcendence for architect (he does have some strong r>f statements).

3. Titan is incapable of using Dimensional Travel. This one's a no-brainer. In fact, it's the whole reason why he even had beef with Shadow to begin with. Titan spawned Gates of Shadows on multiple Earths from alternate timelines to create a perfect vessel for Shadow Energy. Shadow was the successful test subject, having gained the ability to walk between the worlds (aka through the Gates) without, well, dying in the process. And Titan exclusively wanted to steal Shadow's energy in order to gain this ability so he could then continue his conquest in other universes via the Gates. So tell me, how would a guy incapable of Dimensional Travel conquer multiple 2-C structures to begin with? Don't bore me with an "his armies did it for him" answer.
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This might not be related to the main topic; but I used to think he really did it with his army (of shadow demons and shadow double like characters), since these shadow demons and shadow doubles have no trouble in dimensional travel whatsoever. This also brings up the question as to why Titan didn't just use the essence of the shadow doubles to grant him dimensional travel, as the shadow doubles or even may can travel through the gates without any problem.
 
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I'm down for Architect being Low 1-C, but I'm neutral on Shadow's tier.

If you mean to say that Shadow Fight 2's world was suddenly "equalized" with the Real World when the 4th Wall separating them was broken by Architect, only for things to go back to normal once the Architect left and sealed the 4th Wall in the process, then I could see Shadow having a temporary buff that doesn't have much to do with him in particluar, but moreso the nature of the world he was part of undergoing a bump in "realness".

But then again, here's K.E.V.I.N.. And here's She-Hulk (avert your eyes). Notice how Kevin is in the tier he is, above his whole verse, but She-Hulk is nowhere near that tier even after she broke the 4th wall and exchanged dialogues with Kevin in the "Real World". Now of course She-Hulk never threw hands with Kevin, but one would reckon that her even existing in the "Real World" for the short amount of time she did would grant her Kevin's tier at least in a separate key, but that's not the case.

So why shouldn't this be the same case here?

Anyways, Bump.
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
If you mean to say that Shadow Fight 2's world was suddenly "equalized" with the Real World when the 4th Wall separating them was broken by Architect, only for things to go back to normal once the Architect left and sealed the 4th Wall in the process, then I could see Shadow having a temporary buff that doesn't have much to do with him in particluar, but moreso the nature of the world he was part of undergoing a bump in "realness".
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Well, in my words, I wouldn't say the world of sf2 and the real world are "equalized", but it was shadow who got temporarily real as a effect of the broken 4th wall. As I already stated it could just be shadow who got temporarily real (or we can say the entire world of shadow fight temporarily got real, which results in all characters getting to Low 1-C via Dimensional Manipulation). Although, it is unlikely that sensei saw the broken wall and never spoke of / mention it even once, leaving me to believe that it was only shadow who got temporarily real.
Dashio_Tessai said:
But then again, here's K.E.V.I.N.. And here's She-Hulk (avert your eyes). Notice how Kevin is in the tier he is, above his whole verse, but She-Hulk is nowhere near that tier even after she broke the 4th wall and exchanged dialogues with Kevin in the "Real World". Now of course She-Hulk never threw hands with Kevin, but one would reckon that her even existing in the "Real World" for the short amount of time she did would grant her Kevin's tier at least in a separate key, but that's not the case.
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This is an interesting case indeed, it'll be better if we know the exact reason behind this.
Dashio_Tessai said:
So why shouldn't this be the same case here?
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It wouldn't be the same case in my opinion. because she hulk is a character who regularly breaks the fourth wall while still being just as "less-real" as the fictional world (I guess this is the reason for why she doesn't get to K.E.V.I.N's tier) she can always perceive the real world and interact with her audiences while still in the fictional world without showing any superiority to it (which completely ruins the possibility of her getting dimensional manipulation temporarily) and this would've caused a lot of inconsistencies when she actually came to the real world via breaking the 4th wall.

Meanwhile the case of Yakko and shadow (or even puppeteer) are completely different.
 
But then again, giving Shadow a tier based on an ability which he doesn't have access to just feels wrong. Based on the way you describe his Low 1-C it would mean he'd use it against like 0.5% of characters on this wiki who happen to pull off what Architect does. Literally worthless. Yakko can go for a Low 1-C tier in the middle of a fight if he feels like doing it. Shadow cannot do such a thing, since if he could he'd abuse it against every character in his verse. Hell, at least Puppeteer showcases that he can pull off such tiers by himself (even though that's still just a worthless ability in a VS battle. What's he gonna do, use Shadow Fight VK's profile to make a trashtalk post about his opponent on a higher plane of existence?). And if you mean that he physically gets stronger, then he'd just use that ability to stomp his verse?
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
But then again, giving Shadow a tier based on an ability which he doesn't have access to just feels wrong
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I mean, this is to upgrade Architect, and shadow if possible. It feels like leaving his biggest feat (defeating his author) completely outta his scaling like this isn't doing justice to him. Or you can make a separate key for the "fourth wall" event where the fourth wall is broken, if possible.
Dashio_Tessai said:
Based on the way you describe his Low 1-C it would mean he'd use it against like 0.5% of characters on this wiki who happen to pull off what Architect does. Literally worthless. Yakko can go for a Low 1-C tier in the middle of a fight if he feels like doing it. Shadow cannot do such a thing, since if he could he'd abuse it against every character in his verse.
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Yes I agree in most battles it'll be useless if shadow can't break the fourth wall by himself, but isn't it still worth indexing his tier "when the fourth wall was broken"? Talking about shadow getting his power up only when the fourth wall is broken,
this got me a new idea, shadow gets a new armour in this event called "Fourth wall" with shattered pieces of the fourth wall in it, would this count as anything? I'm just curious.
Dashio_Tessai said:
Hell, at least Puppeteer showcases that he can pull off such tiers by himself (even though that's still just a worthless ability in a VS battle. What's he gonna do, use Shadow Fight VK's profile to make a trashtalk post about his opponent on a higher plane of existence?). And if you mean that he physically gets stronger, then he'd just use that ability to stomp his verse?
Click to expand...
As for puppeteer, I'd say he doesn't exactly need to physically be Low 1-C (there's no physical feats anyways), it'll only have to do with his AP and range with data manipulation "at most" if it is fair.
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
Notice how Kevin is in the tier he is, above his whole verse, but She-Hulk is nowhere near that tier even after she broke the 4th wall and exchanged dialogues with Kevin in the "Real World". Now of course She-Hulk never threw hands with Kevin, but one would reckon that her even existing in the "Real World" for the short amount of time she did would grant her Kevin's tier at least in a separate key, but that's not the case.

So why shouldn't this be the same case here?
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That would simply getting her "Breaking The 4TH Wall" Ability.

Unless she can "actually" interact with a Real Object originate from that Real World, it would grant her the same tier as KEVIN (Tho, this does not grant her the same HDE as KEVIN, and just an HDM or Dimensional Manipulation depending on the Context)

And Shadow is not just "merely" Breaking The 4TH Wall, he's also interact with a Real Object that is originate from the Real World (Architect).

I Agree with Shadow L1-C for Overall in HDM or Dimensional Manipulation context
 
Jeeeeepil123 said:
Following.
But overall I Agree
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Thank you for the input
Jeeeeepil123 said:
That would simply getting her "Breaking The 4TH Wall" Ability.

Unless she can "actually" interact with a Real Object originate from that Real World, it would grant her the same tier as KEVIN (Tho, this does not grant her the same HDE as KEVIN, and just an HDM or Dimensional Manipulation depending on the Context)
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It isn't about her not fighting K.E.V.I.N, because she fights K.E.V.I.N's Security guards (who're humans from the "real world") which should give her complex multi ap. but that totally isn't the case in her profile, because her regular 4th wall breaking ability causes a lot of inconsistencies, which is possibly why her complex multi scale got nuked. But I'm seeing that not to be the case with shadow vs architect.
 
It's getting dusty here, you should gather Moderator or People to help evaluate this thread.

But i'm concerned that Medeus and Dashio is already cool on the Upgrade (In the case of Architect)
Maybe you can evaluate it from there?
 
Jeeeeepil123 said:
It's getting dusty here, you should gather Moderator or People to help evaluate this thread.
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Indeed.
Dashio_Tessai said:
I'm down for Architect being Low 1-C, but I'm neutral on Shadow's tier.
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but I believe Architect is now fit to be placed at Low 1-C in his profile, with all the characteristics of a human from the "real world" such as;
Attack potency : Low Complex Multiverse Level
Speed : Immeasurable
Lifting Strength : Immeasurable
Striking Strength : Low Complex Multiverse Level

this discussion is now left open for shadow (and puppeteer)
 
Richard5128pm said:
@Antvasima @Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @IdiosyncraticLawyer @DarkGrath
I'd really appreciate if you guys can help us with this, this is a huge upgrade for the verse.
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@Antvasima @Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @IdiosyncraticLawyer @DarkGrath

there-you-go-doctor-octopus.gif
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
If you mean to say that Shadow Fight 2's world was suddenly "equalized" with the Real World when the 4th Wall separating them was broken by Architect, only for things to go back to normal once the Architect left and sealed the 4th Wall in the process, then I could see Shadow having a temporary buff that doesn't have much to do with him in particluar, but moreso the nature of the world he was part of undergoing a bump in "realness".
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You know, the more I think about this, the more it makes sense. As fictional characters, they / their world should appear in 2D, but now the fourth wall is broken and now they’re are able to interact with him, but still under his influence (as they are still standing inside his world). What do you think?
 
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