A jokah fights the boy with probability manip

[Chrisras]

um, what are ness's votes bases on? The arguments above don't really say anything going in his favor.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

So Ness can resist things like fire, ice, etc. Buuut Ren has several abilities that allow him to negate these resistances. He can also resist Ness's PSI with Makarakan and can counter his sheild with Tetrakan which unlike Ness, does not take damage at all with physical attacks and can also reflect them which counters Ness's attack reflection. Hell, he can even remove shields that can reflect damage. Also funny enough Ness's main way of his abilities is with PSI and yet PSI is one of the abilities in Persona 5. So he could potentially even just negate all of his PSI abilities with Makarakan. He can also boost his stats and make Ness's stats weaker. Even if Ness buffs his stats, Ren can also just debuff them. He can also use mind manipulation to make Ness forget how to use his abilities. Overall I think Ren wins this due him basically removing most of Ness's options to fight while Ren can use his entire arsenal. So my vote goes to Ren.

 

[Solacis]

um, what are ness's votes bases on? The arguments above don't really say anything going in his favor.

The votes are based on the idea that TOTU ensures that Ness wins in all scenarios no matter what through Fate Manipulation.

Let me remind everyone that Ren was destined to lose Yaldabaoth's game since before he even got his Persona. Yaldabaoth, who had absolute control over reality and the minds of every human on the planet, would make sure that Ren was going to lose no matter what. Chihaya, a fortune teller with a 100% success rate in every single fortune she's ever made, suddenly started getting fortunes wrong whenever Ren interfered in anything she predicted.

Ren's resistance to fate manipulation is practically fate manipulation of its own. That's what Ren's "fate defiance" is.

 

[Silentpixels]

So Ness can resist things like fire, ice, etc. Buuut Ren has several abilities that allow him to negate these resistances. He can also resist Ness's PSI with Makarakan and can counter his sheild with Tetrakan which unlike Ness, does not take damage at all with physical attacks and can also reflect them which counters Ness's attack reflection. Hell, he can even remove shields that can reflect damage. Also funny enough Ness's main way of his abilities is with PSI and yet PSI is one of the abilities in Persona 5. So he could potentially even just negate all of his PSI abilities with Makarakan. He can also boost his stats and make Ness's stats weaker. Even if Ness buffs his stats, Ren can also just debuff them. He can also use mind manipulation to make Ness forget how to use his abilities. Overall I think Ren wins this due him basically removing most of Ness's options to fight while Ren can use his entire arsenal. So my vote goes to Ren.

• Laughs in TOTU*

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

I forgot this existed

I'll type in a response soon Once I regain confidence that is

Oh and uh, I notice Joker lacks the range to even affect Ness's true form which could be an issue here. And I thought we went over Fate hax. TOTU is 2-C, Ren is Low 2-C, idk how far his resistance can go but it ain't defying the god tier of Earthbound anytime soon. Just look at Giygas, he had prep time throughout the game and even had access to a precognitive machine, and even effortlessly destroyed the universe in the future, yet he still lost regardless.

I'll have to look over my previous response to see if I can improve upon it. Indeed, I've made some mistakes here.

 

[Silentpixels]

So if nothing else ness can just kinda snipe ren from a universe away

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Most likely, it's the main reason why this and this were stomp matchup. Because they lacked the range and simply couldn't put Ness down.

Don't worry, I'm still regaining every bit of confidence in me. It takes a while. Uh, I'll respond with something big probably idk.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I have an issue with Ness being a high dimensional being. And this is due to him still taking damage to the Starman and other enemies the Caves Of the Past. Also even if Ness has the range advantage, Makarakan negates stuff like PK Flash and possibly his entire PSI moveset due to PSI being an ability in Persona. And Tetrakan will also negate the physical attacks. Also I'm pretty sure Giygas only lost this time because Ness absorbed the Eight Melodies and Magicant. And hell, in the end, it was the player who defeated Giygas. Not Ness nor the rest of the cast. 2-C fate manipulation is really the only issue. Though you can argue it's at a Low 2-C scale since Ness touched the Truth of the Universe aka his own timeline. And he's also only used it on a Low 2-C enemy. I'm also a little skeptical on probability manipulation because while Apple Kid is a genuis, I don't recall him having knowledge on the TOTU and 1% is...still a chance regardless of how low it is.

 

[Silentpixels]

I have an issue with Ness being a high dimensional being. And this is due to him still taking damage to the Starman and other enemies the Caves Of the Past. Also even if Ness has the range advantage, Makarakan negates stuff like PK Flash and possibly his entire PSI moveset due to PSI being an ability in Persona. And Tetrakan will also negate the physical attacks. Also I'm pretty sure Giygas only lost this time because Ness absorbed the Eight Melodies and Magicant. And hell, in the end, it was the player who defeated Giygas. Not Ness nor the rest of the cast. 2-C fate manipulation is really the only issue. Though you can argue it's at a Low 2-C scale since Ness touched the Truth of the Universe aka his own timeline. And he's also only used it on a Low 2-C enemy. I'm also a little skeptical on probability manipulation because while Apple Kid is a genuis, I don't recall him having knowledge on the TOTU and 1% is...still a chance regardless of how low it is.

The problem being ren cant hit ness no matter what he does if its a whole universe and a half away while ness can just throw things at him

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Good grief...

Alrighty, I sincerely hope I am not asking too much here, but perhaps if you could read through this , it could most likely answer your doubts since most of what you said were discussed over there (and a bit on this thread too). Regardless, I'll just post what I know here:

Firstly, I would like to take the time and repeat what I said previously: I don't think Joker will be able to affect Ness due to his nature of being "One with the universe" which is further backed up with Joker's range; which is only limited to Extended melee range to several kilometers with his Persona. Because of this, match ups like Ness vs Dante and The Player were stomps as they simply lacked universal range. If you don't mind me asking, but can you possibly link me these abilities that could negate Ness's PSI abilities? I don't see any of that stuff you mentioned on his profile. Also like, Mind hax means absolutely nothing to Ness because he resists it to outright being immune to it. Joker's "mind hax" cannot even compare to that of Giygas's, who's mind hax is on a 4D scale and is passive. Further more, this so called "Mind hax" sounds more like the PSI ability "Brainshock" which functions as a confusion status, which Ness also resist. So no, Mind manipulation won't do jack to Ness. Honestly, I am starting to get tired of this...If you don't agree with said abilities, then make a CRT. Ness having Higher dimensional existence is through becoming one with Space-Time, which is pretty self-explanatory why he should get said ability and why he has other related abilites, all of which that have been agreed upon previously in the Earthbound CRT. As Shadow said, the Ness you play as is most likely an Avatar created by Ness (which in my case is shown in Magicant, where he is able to create a physical projection of himself there. And by the end of that trip, after you beat Ness's Nightmare, The Ness in Magicant is speaking to himself but this other Ness is not physically there, of which he later explains to himself about Giygas and The apple of enlightment and what he needs to do now. By that point, I think that other Ness, the one who isn't physically present there, is the Ness that became one with the universe). Me and the boys agreed that it would clear up a lot of confusions, so there ya have it. I do believe my vote still stands.

Now then, ugh, Fate hax. Ness isn't the one doing the fate hax and crap, it's the Truth of the universe, an entity who basically assures Ness's victory and the one who blessed Ness with Low 2-C powers with a simple touch. Giygas lost because Ness was fated to win; all the stuff you mentioned is attributed to Fate/Probablity Manipulation. The Player being summoned too is also attributed to that; if you closely look at TOTU profile, it clearly states that it and The Player can connect their powers and communicate with each other. It can't be "At least Low 2-C" because it's being handled by TOTU, who is 2-C; read the justification to TOTU attack potency. Though, I do agree with you regarding Apple Kid, the real odds would be 100 to 0, yeah? Joker isn't aware of the TOTU protection nor is he aware about anything about Ness. Him defying it sounds impressive, but it's not bypassing Truth's protection due to it's potency and it would therefore bypass resistance. An addition to that, Giygas had prep time throughout the game and even had access to a precognitive machine, and even effortlessly destroyed the universe in the future, yet he still lost regardless due to fate hax. Even in the most dire and desperate situations, Ness managed to pull the victory.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Bump

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Also, do you think you could change the title to "Ness vs Joker" to make it less confusing and complicated for others as "Boy with probability manip" doesn't really correlate to Ness..

 

[Solacis]

Well if lacking universal range makes this a stomp, then so be it.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

As a friend of mine always says: "GG no re"