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A jokah fights the boy with probability manip

Ren resists fate manip and all so he wouldn't need to

Anyways jokaugh resists/reflects ness' attacks and then megidolaons gg

I mean, is it good enough resistance? I don't see any resistance to Passive Probability Manipulation as well, which could be an issue within the fight as Ness (or TOTU in this case) could just pull a Golden Experience Requiem and make the probability of Joker winning the fight a 0%. I also don't see any resistance to Ness' Main PSI abilities, which could again cause issues.

Further more, Ren has never fought a 4D being before; his only hope of winning is through Sinful Shell and Sheer AP.
 
Joker's fate manip resistance comes from him being able to defy it. Since something like probability manip to such an extent as that would heavily impact fate, he'd prolly be able to defy that as well.

The Holy Grail was Low 2-C and Joker could fight him before getting Satanael so idk
 
I don't think he entirely needs to in this case.

Also why was the Ominpotent Orb's resistances removed from Ren's P&A?
 
Ness is a living universe. To my knowledge, he's not 4D. Even after becoming Low 2-C, he's clearly 3D and can interact with 3D objects. If he was 4D then he wouldn't need to become a robot to go into the time machine to fight Giygas. He could just walk there as if it were another direction.
 
LukaSolosYourVerse said:
Joker's fate manip resistance comes from him being able to defy it. Since something like probability manip to such an extent as that would heavily impact fate, he'd prolly be able to defy that as well.
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"Defying" fate sounds pretty weak, especially since this is before his end game key, which I will go ahead and ask would it happen to be superior than Truth of the universe? Because TOTU, who is basically the supreme being of the verse, is the one controlling fate, not Ness. Ensuring his victory in multiple timelines when he is put into trouble. Giygas had a 99% chance of winning since he had a precognition device and a lot of prep time to put down the Chosen Four, and they set that to 0 when they had a 1% chance to win.


I'll talk about the others soon since I'm in school currently.
 
The Smashor said:
Ness is a living universe. To my knowledge, he's not 4D. Even after becoming Low 2-C, he's clearly 3D and can interact with 3D objects. If he was 4D then he wouldn't need to become a robot to go into the time machine to fight Giygas. He could just walk there as if it were another direction.
Click to expand...
Our current profile for Ness has "his psychic consciousness became one with the universe" as reasoning for his speed. It is entirely possible that Ness as a being (his consciousness) is 4-D, but he still has a 3-D body or "avatar" if you will. In this scenario, the limiting factor wouldn't be Ness being unable to get himself to the past, rather it would be him being unable to bring all of the chosen four with him, though currently I have no explanation as to why this limitation would exist. Sorry if this sounds a bit like headcanon but it's the best explanation I could think of. Hopefully DaBigP can elaborate more on this or think of something else
 
I thought about this a little more. I think my idea of Ness' consciousness being 4-D and his body being 3-D could clean up some inconsistencies, though we'd have to add a note for his Higher Dimensional Existence and change the description of his speed to reflect this, while either keeping the rating the same or splitting it into Unknown (or At Least FTL) and Omnipresent.

I also want to revise what I said about Ness' problem not being his inability to get to the past by himself since it conflicts with the plot too much (he did have to become a robot himself instead of meeting them there), though this does mean that he is somewhat arbitrarily restricted to a single 3-D body instead of being able to manifest his body at any point in time (which I originally considered because it seems like a plausible ability for a character who is a universal continuum). Either way he is unable to transport the others (which no longer requires an explanation since I've revised my idea so that Ness cannot transport himself).

There does become a new inconsistency where Ness isn't omnipresent in the fight against Giygas due to being 3-D, though he should still reasonably hold up just with Low 2-C durability seeing as the other three are capable of performing actions. I guess all this means is that Giygas can't be used for speed scaling Ness (which he doesn't need anyways).

There's also a strange inconsistency independent of all this regarding Ness' consciousness being one with the universe given that not only was Dr. Andonuts able to remove his soul from his body (which we still don't even know how. The cutscene makes it seem like he transplanted their brains, but this is logically impossible as their brains would be trapped in the past, plus I don't see how he has the technology to open up a body with Low 2-C durability to begin with), but you get to see a visual representation of his soul (which is the same size as the other three's souls) travel through time back to their bodies, even though this should've just happened instantly for Ness since his consciousness should be spread across the timeline. The only thing I can really think of to rectify this is that his body could have its own soul separate from the rest of his being that is also 3-D, but if that doesn't work I'm willing to excuse this point as PIS since I don't think Ness being a universal continuum is going to be changed anytime soon.

As for this thread itself, I have no knowledge on Persona so I can't vote until everybody's arguments are established, but hopefully what I said here helps fuel the discussion. Sorry about the wall of text, I really get lost in these types of discussions, especially about EarthBound. Lol.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Ness fra, also defying fate sounds more like fate manip then just resistance.
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I think it's just a tad too early to vote just yet, half of ness' case has just been made and no one has given any joker info yet
 
I've been gone for a few days, and I open up to a huge surprise that ShadowGamer had return to the wiki. W h o a


About omnipresence, we can discuss that here if you would like (since I plan to make yet another CRT, and any info would help a lot. And don't worry, it is nothing big) The argument about Ness still being 3D throughout the game was discussed briefly back then within this thread, and as much as I want to go in depth about Ness's page, we would sorta be derailing this thread. So, uh, yeah.

Anyway, we would have to go by what Ness's page state, so him being 4D still applies to this battle. And I think I'll go ahead and cast my vote to Ness via PSI abilites that Ren does not resist and the good old GER move that is also passive.
 
Aight. Unless someone is able to make a compelling argument for Joker winning this, I'll go ahead and cast mu vote for Ness FRA.

Also, DaPigP, I would be more than happy to aid in any discussion of EarthBound. If you need my input on anything, just message me on my wall. I have plenty of things I want revised for Ness as well, so I will participate whenever you are ready to drop that CRT.
 
I mean, yeah? As long as the other has a huge advantage over the other that doesn't make it a stomp match, go for it.

Though, I wouldn't really recommend it since threads like those tend to get a little anxious.
 
DaBigP said:
I mean, yeah? As long as the other has a huge advantage over the other that doesn't make it a stomp match, go for it.
Though, I wouldn't really recommend it since threads like those tend to get a little anxious.
Click to expand...
Alrighty then I can go ahead with my idea thank
 
You know, you should really make this fight take place in Ness's Magicant, Which you could say acts like a persons palace where you could maybe state that Joker is trying to change Ness's heart (even tho Ness himself stole his own heart in a way).
 
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