A contradictory calc guidelines: Large Size rules vs KE rules

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Came across this when evaluating some calcs. On the Large Size Calculations page, it is said that the old method of upscaling speed from size is invalid and either use GBE or the speed the character actually shows on screen. However, the Kinetic Energy standards we have at the moment says we can't just calculate KE without meeting certain criteria like a punch or throwing something.

Which guideline should take precedence over the other? Should "giants" be allowed as a special exception to have their AP derived from KE due to the limited methods, or should we just stick to GPE for all giants and remove that statement from the Large Size page?

 

[KLOL506]

Came across this when evaluating some calcs. On the Large Size Calculations page, it is said that the old method of upscaling speed from size is invalid and either use GBE or the speed the character actually shows on screen. However, the Kinetic Energy standards we have at the moment says we can't just calculate KE without meeting certain criteria like a punch or throwing something.

Which guideline should take precedence over the other? Should "giants" be allowed as a special exception to have their AP derived from KE due to the limited methods, or should we just stick to GPE for all giants and remove that statement from the Large Size page?

IIRC, DT's old CRT suggested that large-enough objects should be allowed to have KE, like cars and stuff and anything heavier, only that human-sized people can't have KE simply for running around carrying someone unless they hit into some wall and come to a dead stop or throw a punch or whatever. At least, that's the standard we've been going on for so long.

I also remember DT saying that KE for large objects should be usable if there is a proper timeframe to latch onto, like cinematic timeframe or whatever.

Only issue that remained is where to draw the line as to from which amount of mass we start to allow KE being usable.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Yeah guidelines should be established

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah guidelines should be established

So uh, from what mass do we start to allow using KE for by default?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"That follows a simple conservative estimation: Any character can at least just fall unto someone. In other words, their potential energy can be used to attack. The only prerequisite to this method is that the character should be at least Type 0 Size on the Large Size scale." (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Large_Size_Calculations)

According to the Large Size Calculation page any character with Large Size Type 0 or higher would qualify. According to the Large Size page Type 0 starts at 2.72 meters based on the tallest known human in history.

 

[Armorchompy]

One issue I have with this is that just because something could theoretically tackle at Low 7-C levels, that doesn't mean that they could survive it. When it comes to hypothetical tackles like this it should be pointed out that we shouldn't assume such a tackle would scale to durability by default.

 

[KLOL506]

One issue I have with this is that just because something could theoretically tackle at Low 7-C levels, that doesn't mean that they could survive it. When it comes to hypothetical tackles like this it should be pointed out that we shouldn't assume such a tackle would scale to durability by default.

I mean, there's a formula for that where the tackles don't end up ramming you into a wall after which you come to a dead stop but instead you're sent flying helplessly. Credits to Kaltias for this.

Final Speed = (Mass of the Object hitting you * Initial Speed of the object impacting you) / (Mass of the Person getting hit + Mass of the object hitting you)

Then you slap the final speed into the normal KE formula using the mass of the person getting hit. We have this in the References for Common Feats page for car crashes that don't ram you into a wall and come to a dead stop.

Of course, if such a tackle is brought to a screeching halt by any means and one survives it (Like blocking a supersonic punch from a 150 meter-tall giant or getting rammed into a wall by a car upon which both you and the car come to a screeching halt where the car just crumples into the wall, or stopping a big-ass submarine and bringing it to a screeching halt wink Raiden wink), they may very well scale to the full yield.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, there's a formula for that where the tackles don't end up ramming you into a wall after which you come to a dead stop but instead you're sent flying helplessly. Credits to Kaltias for this.

Final Speed = (Mass of the Object hitting you * Initial Speed of the object impacting you) / (Mass of the Person getting hit + Mass of the object hitting you)

Then you slap the final speed into the normal KE formula using the mass of the person getting hit. We have this in the References for Common Feats page for car crashes that don't ram you into a wall and come to a dead stop.

I'm not talking about the AP of whoever's tanking the attack, I'm talking about scaling the KE to the overall stats of the giant committing the attack

Of course, if such a tackle is brought to a screeching halt by any means and one survives it (Like blocking a supersonic punch from a 150 meter-tall giant or getting rammed into a wall by a car upon which both you and the car come to a screeching halt where the car just crumples into the wall, or stopping a big-ass submarine and bringing it to a screeching halt wink Raiden wink), they may very well scale to the full yield.

Definitely but that's not the default case

 

[KLOL506]

I'm not talking about the AP of whoever's tanking the attack, I'm talking about scaling the KE to the overall stats of the giant committing the attack

Oh. Okay then, carry on as usual.

Definitely but that's not the default case

Also true. One's gotta check it out whether that's the case in the story first.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Came across this when evaluating some calcs. On the Large Size Calculations page, it is said that the old method of upscaling speed from size is invalid and either use GBE or the speed the character actually shows on screen. However, the Kinetic Energy standards we have at the moment says we can't just calculate KE without meeting certain criteria like a punch or throwing something.

Which guideline should take precedence over the other? Should "giants" be allowed as a special exception to have their AP derived from KE due to the limited methods, or should we just stick to GPE for all giants and remove that statement from the Large Size page?

I mean the current KE page states:

Speed can be used to find KE when

• The kinetic energy displayed is directly shown to be as a result of speed, or at least heavily implied to be so. Examples would be: A meteor crashing into the ground, as well as a Kaiju moving at full speed.

IIRC giant creatures moving fast was one of the things that were accepted.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean the current KE page states:

IIRC giant creatures moving fast was one of the things that were accepted.

We should prolly make further clarifications for this one in the KE page regarding giant-sized objects qualifying for KE so as to avoid further confusion down the line.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

It seems like many of these guidelines are scattered across different pages, perhaps we should add clearer instructions in the KE and large size pages

 

[DontTalkDT]

It seems like many of these guidelines are scattered across different pages, perhaps we should add clearer instructions in the KE and large size pages

Are they scattered? Only the Large Size Calcs calculations and KE page are involved, no? And they both indicate KE for giants is allowed.

We should prolly make further clarifications for this one in the KE page regarding giant-sized objects qualifying for KE so as to avoid further confusion down the line.

I guess we could split off the kaiju thing into its separate point like

a giantic character moves, like for example a Kaiju moving at full speed.

or something. Maybe with a link to the Large Size Calculations page.

 

[KLOL506]

Are they scattered? Only the Large Size Calcs calculations and KE page are involved, no? And they both indicate KE for giants is allowed.

I guess we could split off the kaiju thing into its separate point like

or something. Maybe with a link to the Large Size Calculations page.

Bump. This still seems to be unfinished.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

bumpino

 

[Therefir]

Would it be fine to find KE of characters like Sage Centipede where it is rising up from underground at relatively high speeds?

 

[King]

Would it be fine to find KE of characters like Sage Centipede where it is rising up from underground at relatively high speeds?

I mean, Sage Centipede's along with other centipede's power comes from their speed in general. Even their attacks like Centipede undulation and their charging attacks are heavily reliant on their speed.

 

[Therefir]

Well, at the very least DontTalkDT seems to be fine with using KE for large characters, but my Giant Character KE calcs keep getting rejected over PE.

 

[KLOL506]

Necro bump. This never got concluded.

 

[KLOL506]

bump

 

[Imaginym]

I'm also interested in this.

 

[KLOL506]

Are they scattered? Only the Large Size Calcs calculations and KE page are involved, no? And they both indicate KE for giants is allowed.

I guess we could split off the kaiju thing into its separate point like

or something. Maybe with a link to the Large Size Calculations page.

These be the proposals ATM

 

[KLOL506]

bump

 

[KLOL506]

Necro bump

This never got concluded

 

[KLOL506]

"That follows a simple conservative estimation: Any character can at least just fall unto someone. In other words, their potential energy can be used to attack. The only prerequisite to this method is that the character should be at least Type 0 Size on the Large Size scale." (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Large_Size_Calculations)

According to the Large Size Calculation page any character with Large Size Type 0 or higher would qualify. According to the Large Size page Type 0 starts at 2.72 meters based on the tallest known human in history.

So, 200 kg as a starting point (Robert Wadlow, the tallest man on earth, who was 2.72 m tall, weighed in at 439 lbs or just about 199.127 kg. Lions weigh 190 kg on average and lionesses weigh in at 130 kg on average).

 

[Nehz_XZX]

So, 200 kg as a starting point (Robert Wadlow, the tallest man on earth, who was 2.72 m tall, weighed in at 439 lbs or just about 199.127 kg. Lions weigh 190 kg on average and lionesses weigh in at 130 kg on average).

Okay.

 

[KLOL506]

Are they scattered? Only the Large Size Calcs calculations and KE page are involved, no? And they both indicate KE for giants is allowed.

I guess we could split off the kaiju thing into its separate point like

or something. Maybe with a link to the Large Size Calculations page.

Anyway based on this...

I propose the following:

"Kinetic energy for significantly large-sized objects or animals moving around are considered acceptable, as long as their speed can be quantifiably and reliably measured. For their KE to scale to their durability, they must show that they are capable of reliably surviving said tackles into objects and coming to a dead stop, and then walking it off with little issue. The starting point for how heavy an object must be for KE to be applicable is <insert x mass>"

Improvements are certainly welcome.

That being said tho, how do we deal with objects roughly the same size as the ordinary man and lower? Assuming it's not just running+carrying KE, but something along the lines of throwing and somesuch? Like yeeting/punching/kicking said ordinary human-sized person or similarly heavy object (Washing machines weigh the same as humans as per this link) into the sky/into outer space/into the moon and the like? Or tackling someone into a super-strong wall or similar that won't buckle from their ramming? @DontTalkDT Would KE via throwing/punching them at high speeds work? What about the KE of a volleyball, like in this calc?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think the weight restriction stuff should only apply to walking/running, it's far too restrictive of a criteria for throwing objects (or other people for that matter), and I think forbidding feats such as throwing a bowling ball at high speeds is way too arbitrary.

It doesn't even prevent strong feats from happening given speed is the most relevant part of KE, not weight, we'd be restricting an unimportant part of the math completely arbitrarily.

 

[KLOL506]

I think the weight restriction stuff should only apply to walking/running, it's far too restrictive of a criteria for throwing objects (or other people for that matter), and I think forbidding feats such as throwing a bowling ball at high speeds is way too arbitrary.

It doesn't even prevent strong feats from happening given speed is the most relevant part of KE, not weight, we'd be restricting an unimportant part of the math completely arbitrarily.

I agree.

What about tackling/pushing/shoving people/other objects at high speeds tho? That's also applicable, yes?

 

[Armorchompy]

What about tackling/pushing/shoving people/other objects at high speeds tho? That's also applicable, yes?

Sending things flying in a way that's not an attack is a grey area in my opinion.

 

[KLOL506]

Sending things flying in a way that's not an attack is a grey area in my opinion.

I mean, isn't getting tackled into a wall/ground an attack? Or getting shoved into a wall at high speeds (Like Superman sending Batman hurling with a casual one-handed shove)?

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh yeah I though more in a "pushes someone out of a bullet's way" sort. That's definitely under the "throwing things" umbrella.

 

[KLOL506]

Oh yeah I though more in a "pushes someone out of a bullet's way" sort.

Nah fam, definitely not that, or else we'd have Spidey moving Hulk at Mach 433 because missile dodge bullshit XDDDD.

That's definitely under the "throwing things" umbrella.

Ah, okay then.

 

[Armorchompy]

Nah fam, definitely not that, or else we'd have Spidey moving Hulk at Mach 433 because missile dodge bullshit XDDDD.

Not that I think the feat is usable but Hulk is probably above 190 kg anyway, Marvel official height/weight stats for him make no sense

 

[KLOL506]

Not that I think the feat is usable but Hulk is probably above 190 kg anyway, Marvel official height/weight stats for him make no sense

Ironically he weighs over anywhere from near half a metric ton to just over half a metric tonne (900 lbs or 408.23 kg as Grey Hulk, 1040-1150 lbs or 471.74-521.63 kg normally, 1400 lbs or 635.03 kg as Savage Hulk)

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh also, this is a bit more gray but I think jumping should be exempt from the weight requirements, we have utilized jumping high as an AP feat for a lot of times and even have it listed in standard feats.

 

[KLOL506]

Oh also, this is a bit more gray but I think jumping should be exempt from the weight requirements, we have utilized jumping high as an AP feat for a lot of times and even have it listed in standard feats.

It's already applicable for both LS and AP, isn't it? Pretty sure there was a CRT to establish that IIRC.

 

[Armorchompy]

Just wanted to avoid creating a new contradiction