A contradictory calc guidelines: Large Size rules vs KE rules

[KLOL506]

Just wanted to avoid creating a new contradiction

Fair enough.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Oh also, this is a bit more gray but I think jumping should be exempt from the weight requirements, we have utilized jumping high as an AP feat for a lot of times and even have it listed in standard feats.

Jumping as a PE feat should (we have no resitrictions on that). As a KE feat, I think the general reasons we don't allow it for basic characters should still apply.

Anyway based on this...

I propose the following:

"Kinetic energy for significantly large-sized objects or animals moving around are considered acceptable, as long as their speed can be quantifiably and reliably measured. For their KE to scale to their durability, they must show that they are capable of reliably surviving said tackles into objects and coming to a dead stop, and then walking it off with little issue. The starting point for how heavy an object must be for KE to be applicable is <insert x mass>"

Improvements are certainly welcome.

So what should the weight be? Maybe heavier than the heaviest human?

That being said tho, how do we deal with objects roughly the same size as the ordinary man and lower? Assuming it's not just running+carrying KE, but something along the lines of throwing and somesuch? Like yeeting/punching/kicking said ordinary human-sized person or similarly heavy object (Washing machines weigh the same as humans as per this link) into the sky/into outer space/into the moon and the like? Or tackling someone into a super-strong wall or similar that won't buckle from their ramming? @DontTalkDT Would KE via throwing/punching them at high speeds work? What about the KE of a volleyball, like in this calc?

KE for throwing objects was always allowed.

 

[KLOL506]

Jumping as a PE feat should (we have no resitrictions on that). As a KE feat, I think the general reasons we don't allow it for basic characters should still apply.

What reasons, might I ask?

So what should the weight be? Maybe heavier than the heaviest human?

No, something smaller than that. @Nehz_XZX proposed the following:

"That follows a simple conservative estimation: Any character can at least just fall unto someone. In other words, their potential energy can be used to attack. The only prerequisite to this method is that the character should be at least Type 0 Size on the Large Size scale." (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Large_Size_Calculations)

According to the Large Size Calculation page any character with Large Size Type 0 or higher would qualify. According to the Large Size page Type 0 starts at 2.72 meters based on the tallest known human in history.

Now, Robert Wadlow, the tallest known human in history, was pretty much that, 2.72 meters tall and 439 lbs heavy. That's 199.127 kg, just over a dozen to two dozen kg heavier than the average mass of a male lion.

@Armorchompy also said another thing regarding the starting weight restriction

I think the weight restriction stuff should only apply to walking/running, it's far too restrictive of a criteria for throwing objects (or other people for that matter), and I think forbidding feats such as throwing a bowling ball at high speeds is way too arbitrary.

It doesn't even prevent strong feats from happening given speed is the most relevant part of KE, not weight, we'd be restricting an unimportant part of the math completely arbitrarily.

Which I am inclined to agree with. The weight restriction should only apply to feats involving walking/running/carrying. It should not be used to arbitrarily limit high-speed feats like punches, tackles into walls, kicks, throws, etc.

KE for throwing objects was always allowed.

Yes, but people were currently having a issue with how low of a mass would be allowed for throwing feats.

Like for example, sending a volleyball hurling into space within a short timeframe, or uppercutting a man into the moon within seconds. Or hurling a car from LA to New York within seconds. Or basically, all bullets ever made.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What reasons, might I ask?

In fiction, speed is a stat independent of AP. Some characters specialize in speed and are much faster than characters that have a higher AP than them. See your average RPG for instance, where the speed stat has no effect on the offensive stats. Or think of characters like Flash or Quicksilver.

Hence we don't consider running as an AP feat (unless there's contrary evidence), as fiction generally just considers it speed.

If you can run really fast, obviously you could also jump just as fast (just take your feet off the ground...). It's really just an extension of the idea of movement speed as a stat. Hence it doesn't really make sense to treat it differently from running.

No, something smaller than that. @Nehz_XZX proposed the following:


Now, Robert Wadlow, the tallest known human in history, was pretty much that, 2.72 meters tall and 439 lbs heavy. That's 199.127 kg, just over a dozen to two dozen kg heavier than the average mass of a male lion.

Thing is, since we don't want "just fast human guy" to qualify allowing weight that would allow heavy humans to get in would be problematic, no?

@Armorchompy also said another thing regarding the starting weight restriction


Which I am inclined to agree with. The weight restriction should only apply to feats involving walking/running/carrying. It should not be used to arbitrarily limit high-speed feats like punches, tackles into walls, kicks, throws, etc.

Throws are one thing. Tackles, kicks etc. fall into the same problem as what I said above. Fiction has speedster characters and speed is treated as separate from AP. That's the whole reason we have those restrictions. If a character can run with Mach 100 obviously he can also punch as fast, but it hence shouldn't apply for the same reason.

We had consensus on that matter when the rule was made, so I can't see that changing and it, quite frankly, goes beyond the scope of this thread. If you want to change the existing rules make a new one so that the proposal gets the appropriate attention.

Yes, but people were currently having a issue with how low of a mass would be allowed for throwing feats.

Like for example, sending a volleyball hurling into space within a short timeframe, or uppercutting a man into the moon within seconds. Or hurling a car from LA to New York within seconds. Or basically, all bullets ever made.

Ok? But as said, those stuff was always allowed for all weights and I don't see a reason to restrict that. Throwing is mostly a strength feat, after all.

 

[KLOL506]

In fiction, speed is a stat independent of AP. Some characters specialize in speed and are much faster than characters that have a higher AP than them. See your average RPG for instance, where the speed stat has no effect on the offensive stats. Or think of characters like Flash or Quicksilver.

Hence we don't consider running as an AP feat (unless there's contrary evidence), as fiction generally just considers it speed.

I mean, unless you're hitting something at top speed can it really be called AP to begin with? Isn't AP all about offense? My point was about using running-based attacks.

Thing is, since we don't want "just fast human guy" to qualify allowing weight that would allow heavy humans to get in would be problematic, no?

Except, that's literally entering Big Game territory, the realm of large animals.

Throws are one thing. Tackles, kicks etc. fall into the same problem as what I said above. Fiction has speedster characters and speed is treated as separate from AP. That's the whole reason we have those restrictions. If a character can run with Mach 100 obviously he can also punch as fast, but it hence shouldn't apply for the same reason.

We had consensus on that matter when the rule was made, so I can't see that changing and it, quite frankly, goes beyond the scope of this thread. If you want to change the existing rules make a new one so that the proposal gets the appropriate attention.

It's not so much about the person punching or kicking but rather the other guy/object that gets kicked/punched that hard and that fast. Basically, we're not asking about the attacker's speed, but the victim/object's speed when the victim/object gets punched/kicked/tackled at that speed.

Like, the speed of a guy when they get kicked to the moon under X seconds, or a volleyball getting kicked at Mach 1300. Or a washing machine getting Sparta-kicked and it being sent hurling at speeds of 70 mph.

So no, I believe a weight restriction of 200 kg (And potentially lower, since bullets work like that) applying for kicking/punching/tackling large-enough objects is fine, as long as one can prove that it's the object reaching that set speed and not the attacker and/or their limbs. Unless you want to say no KE for sending any big enough object (Like cars or buildings) flying with punches or kicks that is.

Ok? But as said, those stuff was always allowed for all weights and I don't see a reason to restrict that. Throwing is mostly a strength feat, after all.

Then it should be made more clear and it should be directly written down that throwing feats are applicable for all mass values.

 

[KLOL506]

Throws are one thing. Tackles, kicks etc. fall into the same problem as what I said above. Fiction has speedster characters and speed is treated as separate from AP. That's the whole reason we have those restrictions. If a character can run with Mach 100 obviously he can also punch as fast, but it hence shouldn't apply for the same reason.

We had consensus on that matter when the rule was made, so I can't see that changing and it, quite frankly, goes beyond the scope of this thread. If you want to change the existing rules make a new one so that the proposal gets the appropriate attention.

@Armorchompy While I agree with your proposal to not arbitrarily lock out punching/kicking/tackling large-enough objects to send them flying at a set speed, I am ill-suited to make CRTs since my wording comprehension is BS. But since it was your proposal originally, would you be kind enough to do so, while also including the points I made above, after this thread is concluded?

 

[KLOL506]

Ok? But as said, those stuff was always allowed for all weights and I don't see a reason to restrict that. Throwing is mostly a strength feat, after all.

Okay so one more thing, this also includes pushing and shoving large-enough objects at high speeds, right? Since they're also strength feats, after all.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy While I agree with your proposal to not arbitrarily lock out punching/kicking/tackling large-enough objects to send them flying at a set speed, I am ill-suited to make CRTs since my wording comprehension is BS. But since it was your proposal originally, would you be kind enough to do so, while also including the points I made above, after this thread is concluded?

"This rule only applies to movements unrelated to combat, feats including but not limited to punching, kicking, shoving, throwing, tackling or hitting objects or beings and sending them flying at high speeds would remain unaffected."

 

[KLOL506]

"This rule only applies to movements unrelated to combat, feats including but not limited to punching, kicking, shoving, throwing, tackling or hitting objects or beings and sending them flying at high speeds would remain unaffected."

In a new CRT dummy

 

[Armorchompy]

i ain't ghostwriting that shit

i ain't writing it either

 

[KLOL506]

i ain't ghostwriting that shit

i ain't writing it either

PAIN, SUFFERING, AGONY, TORMENT

 

[KLOL506]

BUMP

"This rule only applies to movements unrelated to combat, feats including but not limited to punching, kicking, shoving, throwing, tackling or hitting objects or beings and sending them flying at high speeds would remain unaffected."

Some additional rule about where the weight restriction applies and doesn't apply.

 

[KLOL506]

BUMP.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Damn. What's the current suggestion/TL;DR?

 

[KLOL506]

This:

Anyway based on this...

I propose the following:

"Kinetic energy for significantly large-sized objects or animals moving around are considered acceptable, as long as their speed can be quantifiably and reliably measured. For their KE to scale to their durability, they must show that they are capable of reliably surviving said tackles into objects and coming to a dead stop, and then walking it off with little issue. The starting point for how heavy an object must be for KE to be applicable is <insert x mass>"

And this:

"This rule only applies to movements unrelated to combat. Feats including but not limited to punching, kicking, shoving, throwing, tackling or hitting objects or beings and sending them flying at high speeds would remain unaffected."

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ok. Are we still allowed to use the "(Large size/small size)*small speed = Large speed" formula?

 

[KLOL506]

Ok. Are we still allowed to use the "(Large size/small size)*small speed = Large speed" formula?

No. We can't square cube speed like that anymore. Just use on-screen speed and derive it from cinematic timeframe.

If they can tag supersonic objects, they're Supersonic, just use that for KE.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No. We can't square cube speed like that anymore. Just use on-screen speed and derive it from cinematic timeframe.

If they can tag supersonic objects, they're Supersonic, just use that for KE.

MUAHAHAHAHA! Good. And GPE will be negged too correct? Specifically large mass*half the character height*gravitational acceleration. Or is that staying?

 

[KLOL506]

MUAHAHAHAHA! Good. And GPE will be negged too correct? Specifically large mass*half the character height*gravitational acceleration. Or is that staying?

That one is definitely staying and never going anywhere.

My turn on the evil laughter. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

That one is definitely staying and never going anywhere.

My turn on the evil laughter. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Today is a good day KLOL. Thank you for telling me this.

 

[Greenshifter]

Oh boy

 

[KLOL506]

bump

 

[Agnaa]

Does anyone disagree with those two suggested standards?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Does anyone disagree with those two suggested standards?

I surely don’t disagree.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

Anyone else wanna give their take on this?

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

This:


And this:

@Therefir @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @DemonGodMitchAubin @CloverDragon03 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Aguywhodoesthings @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @DMUA @DarkDragonMedeus Thoughts?

 

[CloverDragon03]

No. We can't square cube speed like that anymore. Just use on-screen speed and derive it from cinematic timeframe.

If they can tag supersonic objects, they're Supersonic, just use that for KE.

This isn't necessarily "square cube" or whatever that's called, it's just a basic proportion. I don't see why this can't be done

 

[KLOL506]

This isn't necessarily "square cube" or whatever that's called, it's just a basic proportion. I don't see why this can't be done

Because the argument was that giants in most fiction are usually shown as moving very slowly as compared to more normal-sized people, with Kaiju series being exceptions at times because those guys can tag fighter jets pretty easily.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump. This never got finished.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm unsure where to stand on some of the points here, particularly the tackling thing. There are instances where it obviously wouldn't make sense to include that in our standards as acceptable for a KE calc, so in general I think I wouldn't include it.

As for where the start of KE and large size calculations being acceptable... hm. There are two factors we're considering, those being the size measured in centimeters vs the size measured in mass. Of the two, only mass has bearing on an actual KE calculation, so if we must choose between them, I suppose mass would be the better option to work with. As for the start of it, I think using the heaviest person alive is fine- large game is perfectly acceptable, and last I checked we already have some large game rated for their charging capabilities.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm unsure where to stand on some of the points here, particularly the tackling thing. There are instances where it obviously wouldn't make sense to include that in our standards as acceptable for a KE calc, so in general I think I wouldn't include it.

The tackling thing is not so much about the person running into someone else, but rather about the person who is being tackled.

As for where the start of KE and large size calculations being acceptable... hm. There are two factors we're considering, those being the size measured in centimeters vs the size measured in mass. Of the two, only mass has bearing on an actual KE calculation, so if we must choose between them, I suppose mass would be the better option to work with.

Uhhhhhh... not sure how you got the idea we were making a choice between length and mass because mass was always the target here.

As for the start of it, I think using the heaviest person alive is fine- large game is perfectly acceptable, and last I checked we already have some large game rated for their charging capabilities.

Recently most large animals had their tackles separated from their actual punching prowess in an IRL Animal CRT.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Uhhhhhh... not sure how you got the idea we were making a choice between length and mass because mass was always the target here.

Earlier in the thread, our Large Size guidelines were used. Those guidelines are based on height, something you commented on at length to give basis on the weight (i.e., you had been trying to choose the starting mass based on height). Hence my mention of it.

Recently most large animals had their tackles separated from their actual punching prowess in an IRL Animal CRT.

Noted. I still would argue it's fine, but that does remove some amount of precedent. It remains my opinion.

 

[KLOL506]

Earlier in the thread, our Large Size guidelines were used. Those guidelines are based on height, something you commented on at length to give basis on the weight (i.e., you had been trying to choose the starting mass based on height). Hence my mention of it.

I believe the height size thing was more so about square-cube law. Like, how the mass of the upscaled object would be proportional to the cube of the size difference or so.

Noted. I still would argue it's fine, but that does remove some amount of precedent. It remains my opinion.

Understood.

 

[KLOL506]

My brother in Christ, this thread is for Calc members and staff only if you're not going to contribute anything meaningful.

 

[Antvasima]

What did DontTalk think that we should do here?

 

[KLOL506]

What did DontTalk think that we should do here?

He has yet to respond to the notes below.

Anyway based on this...

I propose the following:

"Kinetic energy for significantly large-sized objects or animals moving around are considered acceptable, as long as their speed can be quantifiably and reliably measured. For their KE to scale to their durability, they must show that they are capable of reliably surviving said tackles into objects and coming to a dead stop, and then walking it off with little issue. The starting point for how heavy an object must be for KE to be applicable is <insert x mass>"

Said mass being around the weight of 200 kg, based on Robert Wadlow's weight, and the weight of the average lion, which averages out around the 180-190 kg mark.

"This rule only applies to movements unrelated to combat, feats including but not limited to punching, kicking, shoving, throwing, tackling or hitting objects or beings and sending them flying at high speeds would remain unaffected."

Then there's this note that Armorchompy made. This is explicitly meant to be about the object being sent flying by the above methods, not about the person who is performing these actions.