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A Beholder vs Dio Brando

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I don't feel like explaining it again to you, it has been discussed to death by myself, Qawsed, and Azzy. I just don't care. If you want to cherrypick, it doesn't bother me anymore. From what I can tell, Dio shouldn't be affected in this fight so even bringing it up is... weird. Also.

"This is a futile attempt at getting a jab in."

"And of course, you're re-directing the argument. I have never said you were attacking me. "

Alright well I guess lol. Cheers guy.
 
> "if you want to cherrypick"

> proceeds to use poorly phrased statement from single scan that has been retconned and re-explained to death already

ok
 
I think the Beholder would just go for Ray spam, one of which includes Disintergrate, which reduces the target to dust, which Dio cannot recover from with his Regen. It would also go for Flesh to Stone, which would bypass his durability and be a near One hit kill.

Also Antimagic Field, the spell which Ray of Anti-magic copies negates Spell-like abilities too, as noted here: "Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field." - Antimagic Field
 
DIO's vampire powers come from his biology by the way, not anything remotely magical. It's like disabling the smell of a dog. That's not what it does.
 
Yes, however, are any of them super natural? Because if they are, then they are nullified, if they are even remotely spell like, then they are nullified, additionally, the Beholder does the same to the Undead, Elementals ETC. Dio would be no different.
 
If they are biological, it means that (at the very least in.verse), they can be explained by science, and that they are a natural function of Dio's body.

The Stone mask is supposed to be an object that acts through biological evolution.

It's the exact opposite of Supernatural.
 
Well, no, not really, the Undead's abilties are all inherant to their bodies, all "biological" but they are still negated.

Elemental's abilities are all Inherant to their bodies, it's a part of their biology, yet they can still be nullified.
 
ProfessorLord said:
If someone described storm clouds as supernatural, are you honestly telling me that Beholder can negate them? By definition yawning is technically supernatural. Are you telling me Beholder can negate yawning?
In DnD, magical is an inherent quantifiable property of creatures and artifacts.

Supernatural only means above or beyond scientific understanding.

Not everything above or beyond scientific understanding is magical. The Beholder cannot negate everything supernatural.

This is the best way I can explain this to you.
Click to expand...
Please stop this argument. The descriptive word of "supernatural" was only ever used in one page, in a single edition AFAIK. It's been re-written in every other publication, and WOG has already described that there needs to be clearly defined "magic" at play. That does not include somethng inherently magical.

This has already been added, can someone close this.
 
I realize this has already been concluded; but how does the anti magic cone not affecting Dio mean Dio instantly wins? I get the feeling the beholders other abilities haven't even been considered by the Dio supporters.
 
This is how the scenario plays out:

Beholder decides that Dio Brando is a magical threat of some sort, and keeps his giant eye open in order to activate his anti-magic cone. He cannot use his own magical beams while doing so, making his only viable way to kill Dio... biting him. He rushes forward, Dio freezes him as soon as he gets touched, GG.

OR

Beholder decides that he is not a magical threat and proceeds to use his various beams onto Dio, who retaliates with his SRSE, an attack that has one-shot other 8-B fighters. Beholder can only really kill him by hitting him with the death or disintegration beam, both of which can be dodged, but Dio is able to kill him with SRSE for long range, vaporizing freeze for melee range or start off brainwashing him instantly, as he did with Poco and Jack the Ripper.
 
Not likely given the beholders considerable intelligence and paranoia. In character they try to end the fight as fast as possible with their rays and wouldn't go for the anti magic right away unless they thought their opponent was a full caster. I could also point out that dio shares some of the powers of DnD vampires such as mind control, walking up walls and regen so the beholder already has a knowledge advantage (on top of the int advantage).

If Dio is in the cone the beholder wouldn't approach until it was sure that dio was helpless. SRSE can be dodged just as much as the beholders rays can so that's not much of an argument. Beholders can take attacks more destructive than SRSE (some of which would instakill Dio such as disintegrate and sunburst) so dio is not one shotting with anything but his freezing. The slow, telekinesis, charm and sleep rays can hinder or outright prevent dio from dodging and petrification is a permanent KO. Again, not much of an argument as the beholder can also kill dio from long range; prevent dio from getting into melee via flying away, fear ray or throwing him back with TK and also brain wash him.
 
Tens of meters versus Dio's SRSE being able to cut through the clouds . Yeah okay pal. Dio will be able to kill him far before he gets in range with any of his magical rays. He does a glance and slices Beholder in half.

If Dio is in the cone Beholder is going to be mind-controlled.

If not he outranges Beholder with his SRSE. He has a one-shot ability in close combat via vaporizing freeze. I don't see resistance to thermal or ice manipulation, so saying he can withstand disintegration (which lesser beings also can) is not relevant at all. Sunburst is fire manipulation. They are opposite abilities lmao.

Anyways other abilities have been considered, I mentioned this in my first few posts, it's not new and everyone voted Dio FRA.
 
They start at ten meters so that's irrelevant, at least initially.

Beholder glances at dio and he's charmed, paralysed, frightened, asleep, petrified, dead or dust and given the beholder's improved initiative ability that allows it to act first (or at least makes it more likely to) it's attacking before Dio can do anything.

How exactly does Dio's hypnosis work?

As I said before the beholder can prevent Dio from getting into cqc so a one shot via freezing is unlikely. Sunburst is actually light manipulation (at least it is in 5e and what you would assume from the name) so get your facts right. Dio also has no resistance to any thing the beholder has.

No you just declared a decisive victory for Dio and argued about the anti magic cone. everyone just decided you were right and voted FRA.


We are using phantom blood dio who can't fly, read the OP.
 
You got it backwards. Dio glances at Beholder and he is instantly a slave of the vampire. That's how his mind manipulation in Phantom Blood works. He looks at a targets eye and they instantly become under his control. Once he does that, he can use Beholder as a tool or just freeze him and keep him as a nice statue.

Beholder must shoot his beam to use his many abilities. Dio must look at him. It's no contest.

Let's go over this one more time:

- Beholder can kill Dio with his various magic rays if he can land them first.

- Dio can control Beholder with a simple glance. He can shoot his own beam at the same speeds as Beholder, resulting in an inconclusive if needs be. He can freeze Beholder with a touch if it ever tries to bite him.

Dio was flying in his fight against Jonathan. He has flight on his profile for part one. Read the manga.
 
Flight is litterally the third ability he has lmao.

Also you are entitled to your right to disagree. I believe you're confusing the fact that Dio is more likely to win with the fact that Dio is always going to win.

Either way, your concern about others not adressing the actual fight regardless of anti-magic cone is not valid, this was established in my first post. You can continue to disagree but it won't be removed because of said disagreement.
 
2 things If that is the case: 1) how come Dio never mind controlled Johnathan and 2) that is exactly how the DnD vampire's mind control works, heck they don't even need eye contact and the beholder would be prepared for that (given they are super prepers). 1) would imply Dio has to consciously active them and if he needs to make eye contact, the beholder can just avoid that; so it is not an instant win ability.


SRSE would only make two holes about half the size of a penny (unless he can move his head to slice) and didn't even instant kill Johnathan so I am not sold on them being an instant kill either and even if they do fatal damage, Dio is more likely to die first in a beam exchange given what is being fired.

I disagree - dio is not more likely to win as he is: out-haxed, outsmarted and the beholder has no notable weaknesses unlike him.
 
SRSE can be moved via the head. Dio explicitly shoots through an 8-B Jonathan's hand and shoulder, then proceeds to tilt his head upwards causing it tear its way through his shoulder. He also you know, casually cuts a building in two.

Beholder being extremely intelligent and paranoid is not a valid reason for instantly knowing that Dio is indeed a vampire similar to the ones in D&D. Yes, he thinks up every scenario possible in his weird little head and yes he is extremely proficient at deducing which one is correct. That still means he needs the clues present in order to make the correlation that Dio is a vampire, and cannot instantly know just from looking at him no matter how paranoid and smart he is. Furthermore there is bound to be conflicting mythology that would force him into an impossible situation, like a creature that requires you to look in his eyes to disable his powers, or a creature that requires you to look away or else he will disable your powers. The Beholder cannot do anything but guess in this situation.

Last time I will say this, I acknowledge that you disagree but this fight has already been added and agreed upon. I apologize if you feel angered by these results.
 
He's Humanoid, so the Beholder would make up an scenario where Dio is infact a Vampire, and would prepare for it, he'd prepare for even the most unlikely events, and normally, a Vampire would be one of them.

So, yeah, he'd prepare for it.
 
Also, by the way, the Results will be wiped away, anyway, the Beholder and D&D in general are being revised.
 
... or is he humanoid? What if he is a shapeshifter waiting for the last second to transform into his true form? What if Dio is the avatar of a higher power, simply waiting for Beholder to attack him? How would he prepare for a scenario where Dio is a vampire who can mindcontrol him through eye contact AND a scenario where Dio is a being who gets weaker the more he looks at his eyes?

You see what I'm getting at? It's useful, but it's far from being able to instantly know Dio will brainwash him from eye contact. It's too late as well.

I am fine with results being wiped if they are revised.
 
Thing is, he'd take that into account, like Azzy said, EVERY scenario, no matter how unlikely, Shapeshifter and Vampire counts under Every.
 
Taking into account EVERY scenario means it is IMPOSSIBLE to devise a plan against every scenario. Some will have to be ignored in favor of what is more likely. In case you are incapable of reading:

How would he prepare for a scenario where Dio is a vampire who can mindcontrol him through eye contact AND a scenario where Dio is a being who gets weaker the more he looks at his eyes?
 
Downplaying again I see.

No, accounting for every possibility is not impossible and it is one of the defining factors of a Beholder. You can't just say "lol u cant" when you don't have an argument against something lol.

Furthermore, the whole Supernatural = magic thing right now has been ignored by you for several days, leading me to believe you lack further argument. It isn't applicable if everything DIO has is considered natural.

Also, "how can he account for a vampire with mind control powers in a universe where the Beholder is above or on the tier of vampires with mind control powers"

whut. You don't seem to understand, D&D has pretty much anything you'd like to imagine as canon somewhere. Mind control is weak sauce and frankly the Beholder (along with all D&D creatures) need to get a Resistances CRT, coz Beholder can resist mind effects pretty easily.
 
Funny thing is, the Beholder has the Iron Will feat, making it's normally very high resistance to Mind Manipulation, even higher.
 
By the very nature and through what has been described, accounting for every possibility is impossible because there WILL be conflicting possibilties. This is a logic problem, see my other post for an example. Based on the mechanics behind it as described by Azzy, anything that mentions him having the ability to account every possibility is just an exaggeration, or he has other unstated abilities in relation to it that allows him to do so, like precognition.

I don't know what Supernatural = magic thing you are talking about. It's not relevant anyways because Dio's abilities would be considered extraordinary, not supernatural. They are not magical, they are just things his body can do, like regenerate really fast or control his temperature.

I don't know what your last couple arguments are because I've already adressed them and they aren't really relevant.

Anyways I am getting an admin to close this thread now because it has been added. Someone can re-open the fight in the future after Beholder tier CRT.
 
The Argument is, is that, Dio's mind control would take too long for the Beholder to just glance at him and fire off all his Beams, Finger of Death which is a one hit kill ability, Disintergrate, which turns him to dust, which he can't regen from btw, and that's just going off his eye beams, not all of his magic.

The Beholder has flesh to stone, Charm Monster and Telekinesis which he would spam immediately, also, the Beholder has legendary actions, it has 3 and regains them on it's turn.
 
Yes, because simply mind controlling someone with a simple glance is much slower than shooting off a bunch of beams from a distance.
 
Yes, because being able to casually Mind Control an empire, then other Beholders being able to Mind Control other Beholders who have Mind Resistance, to which these Beholder can Mind Control an Empire, but no, no, of course they're going to get MC'ed by a Passive glance, pfft, what does Mind Manipulation on the scale of an empire even matter, this is a Jojo character, pfft, I guess he must Mind Control TOBA too, because GLANCE.
 
I make an argument about the speed of his mindhax vs the beams from Beholder.

He changes it to an argument about the potency of his mindhax.

Please close this thread already.
 
I no longer follow JoJo's threads due to some pretty blatant wanking, but I will say, this should just be dropped. DIO's only hope is MFTL+, with speed equalized, so that's nulled. It is a stomp without it, genuinely speaking. But hey, everyone FRA spams lol.

Beholder resists most good haxes, up to and including things such as Mind Hax, Age Manip, Some forms of Time Manip, even One Hit Kill and stuff. DIO has no way of meaningfully speaking.

Cheers. Just drop it. This thread will be pointless once the upgrades go through and I can finally use Beholder in matches that are somewhat fair, should such a thing exist in Low 7-C/Low 7-B.
 
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