7-A Base Sasuke (Kage Summit)

[TheFinalOrder]

@Shrek

KS Sasuke will always have a greater output than CMS2 Sasuke becsuse his chakra is denser. You cannot separate these two facts which your argument is trying to do.

The units of chakra will be the same for any jutsu, but the units of chakra will contain more chakra due to being denser. Thus KS Sasuke will be a superior to CSM2.

This is not a situation of simply having more chakra which your argument asserts.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

@TFO

KS Sasuke will always have a greater output than CMS2 Sasuke becsuse his chakra is denser. You cannot separate these two facts which your argument is trying to do.

If he used an example 5% of his maximum chakra for every chidori you would be correct however as that is not the case you are wrong

The units of chakra will be the same for any jutsu, but the units of chakra will contain more chakra due to being denser. Thus KS Sasuke will be a superior to CSM2

Incorrect as for the same jutsu he will use same ammount of chakra units not the same ammount of volume(liters).

This is not a situation of simply having more chakra which your argument asserts.

It is just him having more chakra unless you can prove otherwise.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@TFO
KS Sasuke will always have a greater output than CMS2 Sasuke becsuse his chakra is denser. You cannot separate these two facts which your argument is trying to do.

If he used an example 5% of his maximum chakra for every chidori you would be correct however as that is not the case you are wrong

The units of chakra will be the same for any jutsu, but the units of chakra will contain more chakra due to being denser. Thus KS Sasuke will be a superior to CSM2

Incorrect as for the same jutsu he will use same ammount of chakra units not the same ammount of volume(liters).

This is not a situation of simply having more chakra which your argument asserts.

It is just him having more chakra unless you can prove otherwise.

I have proved otherwise, you just don't accept it.

And it doesn't matter how much Chakra Sasuke uses for his jutsu, it will be more than CSM2 puts out still and the amount doesn't matter because KS Sasuke has the same skill level as CSM2 if not greater, so it's a moot point to argue.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

I have proved otherwise, you just don't accept it.

Where?

The only thing you have proven is that he has higher density as such he has more chakra assuming he didnt lose any after losing cm2.

And it doesn't matter how much Chakra Sasuke uses for his jutsu, it will be more than CSM2 puts out still and the amount doesn't matter because KS Sasuke has the same skill level as CSM2 if not greater, so it's a moot point to argue.

So now that you cant prove otherwise you argue your previous argument?

Also incorrect as he lost all of Orochimarus power and no longer has CM2 as such there is no reason to scale him.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

I have proved otherwise, you just don't accept it.Where?
The only thing you have proven is that he has higher density as such he has more chakra assuming he didnt lose any after losing cm2.

And it doesn't matter how much Chakra Sasuke uses for his jutsu, it will be more than CSM2 puts out still and the amount doesn't matter because KS Sasuke has the same skill level as CSM2 if not greater, so it's a moot point to argue.

So now that you cant prove otherwise you argue your previous argument?

Also incorrect as he lost all of Orochimarus power and no longer has CM2 as such there is no reason to scale him.

Now you are assuming falsities in my actions.

Sasuke is implied to have trained between his fight with Itachi and Kage Summit going from using Amateratsu for the first time and being unaware of Mangekyo abilities to having Susanoo, and skill with Amateratsu that make people question if he is better than Itachi at it:








Ontop of that, this:




So, to reiterate:

• First use of Amateratsu during KB fight, shows he doesn't know much about the Mangekyo abilities

• Goes to Kage Summit, Shows proficiency in Susano (Up through the Skeletal form) and Amaturatsu skill superior to Itachi's (Not he also states he hasent achieved Complete Susanoo yet in the arc)

• Has his Chakra in General stated to be Thicker than CSM 2 chakra

• Shows new summonings out of nowhere which prompts Obito to wonder when he did so.

All of which paints a clear picture, that he trained.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

Now you are assuming falsities in my actions.

Havent done so but i apologize if you feel that way.


First use of Amateratsu during KB fight, shows he doesn't know much about the Mangekyo abilities

Yep.

Goes to Kage Summit, Shows proficiency in Susano (Up through the Skeletal form) and Amaturatsu skill superior to Itachi's (Not he also states he hasent achieved Complete.

Yes his occular prowess clearly got better however why would his AP increase if his Ocular prowess is considerably better.

Has his Chakra in General stated to be Thicker than CSM 2 chakra.

Thicker meaning more but that doesnt make his superior to his CM2 self.

Shows new summonings out of nowhere which prompts Obito to wonder when he did so.

New summonings fair enough but why would that increase his AP to above the previous degree.

All of which paints a clear picture, that he trained.

Sure it is completely fair to assume he trained but as he lost all of Orochimarus power and CM2 making him significantly weaker training doesnt make him superior to his CM2 self as he has no feats or statements of being superior to his CM2 self.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Now you are assuming falsities in my actions.
Havent done so but i apologize if you feel that way.


First use of Amateratsu during KB fight, shows he doesn't know much about the Mangekyo abilities

Yep.

Goes to Kage Summit, Shows proficiency in Susano (Up through the Skeletal form) and Amaturatsu skill superior to Itachi's (Not he also states he hasent achieved Complete.

Yes his occular prowess clearly got better however why would his AP increase if his Ocular prowess is considerably better.

Has his Chakra in General stated to be Thicker than CSM 2 chakra.

Thicker meaning more but that doesnt make his superior to his CM2 self.

Shows new summonings out of nowhere which prompts Obito to wonder when he did so.

New summonings fair enough but why would that increase his AP to above the previous degree.

All of which paints a clear picture, that he trained.

Sure it is completely fair to assume he trained but as he lost all of Orochimarus power and CM2 making him significantly weaker training doesnt make him superior to his CM2 self as he has no feats or statements of being superior to his CM2 self.

That last part is where you are wrong due to the density argument.

KS Sasuke is stated to hace denser Chakra than CSM2 which puts him above the form. I.E, it's a statement of being stronger, whicg you, with no proof otherwise, refuse to accept.

• Sasuke Trained

• Stated to have Denser Chakra (Not a greater Volume).

We are gonna keep going in circles, so we should agree to disagree and waif for more input. I'm sure we have said enough to allow others to take in our points and form an opinion as to which way they lean.

 

[BlackeJan]

Tbh I'm neutral here...while @TFO says is true (Orochimaru said the same thing about KN4 TBB) then u take in the fact that Karin can tells someone's chakra also by personality (saw Naruto and called it "calm and sweet") and she did it to Sasuke as well....basically this goes both ways

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

KS Sasuke is stated to hace denser Chakra than CSM2 which puts him above the form. I.E, it's a statement of being stronger, whicg you, with no proof otherwise, refuse to accept.

How is it a statement of being stronger? Its just a statement of having DENSER chakra which just gives him a higher quantity of chakra, you are the one that needs to prove denser chakra = stronger and not just a greater ammount of it.

• Sasuke Trained
• Stated to have Denser Chakra (Not a greater Volume).

True he presumably trained but he lost most of his power after he lost Orochimarus power and without having any feats or statement of being superior in strenght/AP not in chakra ammount its unreasonable to assume that he surpassed his CM2 self.

Denser = More in quantity, volume is still the same.

We are gonna keep going in circles, so we should agree to disagree and waif for more input. I'm sure we have said enough to allow others to take in our points and form an opinion as to which way they lean.

I agree that does seem like the best option.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

We all know pumping more chakra Into a jutsu makes it stronger depending on the jutsu. By definition, denser chakra is inherently stronger. You need to prove having denser chakra doesn't equate to a greater output on average, inherently.

 

[Omimi]

more Dens chakra = More AP so i agree with upgrade

 

[BlackeJan]

@Omini

Thats what ive said b4 lol

 

[AstralKing7]

tbh we need to find translations for the moments where chakra has been said to be dense and for when someone is said to have a lot of chakra and separate the two by their feats.

Tbf it seems like this whole chakra amount and density thing is basically the same arguement with how trustworthy the databook is. Just because the DB isnt correct or accepted sometimes doesnt make it wrong all of the time.

If attacks or someone's chakra is said to be dense they should be upgraded but if they are said to have a lot of chakra they shouldnt

ALthough if said person has a attack that uses lots of chakra then they should scale to someone who has a dense chakra

for example we know narutos and sasuke attacks were increased by an unknown amount in their final battle. Its like moments like these get thrown out the window lol and moments like Kaguya wanting more chakra cause it obviously will increase her power or with Madara wanting the tailed beasts.

A perfect example again is sasuke. Absorbing only the power of the tailed beasts and controlling it making even his SUsanno stronger which changed because of the amount of chakra he had

 

[BlackeJan]

A perfect example again is sasuke. Absorbing only the power of the tailed beasts and controlling it making even his SUsanno stronger which changed because of the amount of chakra he had

Ive said that too! lol

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

We all know pumping more chakra Into a jutsu makes it stronger depending on the jutsu.

Yes it makes it stronger than the users regular varioation of that jutsu.

By definition, denser chakra is inherently stronger.

No there is just more chakra in the same volume, IE there is just a higher quantity of chakra.

You need to prove having denser chakra doesn't equate to a greater output on average, inherently.

You would be correct if Sasukes chidori used up 10% of his maximum chakra volume(liters by our words) but thats not the case, chidori uses a set ammount of chakra quantity and as his density is higher he will use the same ammount of chakra units example 10000 units of chakra.

If you didnt understand what i mean as admitedly i havent explained it very clearly(Did the best i could) i will give you an example.

Both Sasukes have 1000 liters of chakra (Their Chakra volume is 1000)

CM2 has a density of 1000 chakra units per liter.

KS has a density of 2000 chakra units per liter.

CM2 uses 10000 chakra units per chidori

KS will still use the 10000 units of chakra not 20000 cause his density is twice as big because its the literal same technique without any alterations as such it should use the same ammount.

If you dont want to belive this analogy you would have to prove Sasuke has a greater or equal ammount of chakra compared to his CM2 self as, to use 10 liters instead of a certain ammount of chakra units his chidori would need to use a percentage of his maximum chakra or a percentage of his volume(10 liters for example which is 1% of his overall chakra) which means if KS had a volume of 250(Conservative considering CM2 increases someones power 10 times over) liters while his density is 2000 units per liter he would end up using 2.5 liters which is 5000 units of chakra

@Omimi

Orochimaru just says that TBB is very dense/filled up with chakra and nothing about dense chakra being stronger than regular chakra.

 

[HST_Master]

May I see the scans? Because there's another translation which reads that his Chakra is DARKER than CMS2.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

May I see the scans? Because there's another translation which reads that his Chakra is DARKER than CMS2.

Well, the scans i've posted in this thread are all Viz Translations. The scan in queztion is in the OP.

 

[HST_Master]

Ok. Well firstly context is king.

The Curse Mark is confirmed to erode the mind and have the user act on more violemt and darker tendencies. Both Ino and Karin mention how cold and dark his chakra is when in it.

She never refers to Naruto's chakra as Thick at all yet calls it the opposite of Sasuke's along with Naruto's Rasengan cancelling out Chidori

Throughout the arc Sasuke was going further and further into a darker mental state to the point where he tries to kill team 7 and even Karin herself Karin points this out in his Chakra multiple times.

The context of it is, she's not refering to his strength atm but his mental state.

She never refers to his Chakra's density or any of the sort.

 

[AstralKing7]

she did refer to hs chakra as beign dense. She refers to it beign cold as well.

 

[HST_Master]

she did refer to hs chakra as beign dense. She refers to it beign cold as well.

She refers to it being Thicker, and yes yet she calls Naruto's Warm and Bright in contrast to Sasuke's being Cold and Thick showing it's not strength but a difference in mental state.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@HST Master

I have to disagree. Karin's wording is a key factor. Not only that, but her comparing Sasuke to Naruto is Key in why.

She calls Naruto Chakra Light and Warm and Sasuke's Cold. "Thicker" is not a term that's comparable to the other terminology.

Another Instance is in Kurama calling his, Madara and Sasuke's chakra sinister.

Looking at the terminology, comparing "Thicker" to:

• Light/Warm

• Cold

• Sinister

Makes no sense.

 

[HST_Master]

That said Thicker is being used as a synonym for his chakra being darker or menacing. She also says this when he's going on his tangent to Sakura and Kakashi about Itachi.

I said she calls Naruto's chakra Bright and Warm, she especially said that it was the opposite of Sasuke's note that she doesn't refer to Naruto's or anyone comparable to Sasuke at the time as "Thick" in terms of strength.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

That said Thicker is being used as a synonym for his chakra being darker or menacing. She also says this when he's going on his tangent to Sakura and Kakashi about Itachi.
I said she calls Naruto's chakra Bright and Warm, she especially said that it was the opposite of Sasuke's note that she doesn't refer to Naruto's or anyone comparable to Sasuke at the time as "Thick" in terms of strength.

You are correct, but in that same note, all of what you said is acomplished by her saying his Chakra was "Colder". There is no need for her to Note his Chakra is Thick and Cold when it being cold accomplishes all of that. Given this, trying to equate "Thicker" to the other terminology still makes no sense.

And "Thicker" is not a synonym of Darker or Menacing. It's a synonym for "Dense".

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Like Seriously, "Dense" is a derivative of the Latin word, "Densus", which means "Thick". The two are inseparable and interchangeable.

 

[AstralKing7]

if she said both of them then it doesnt make sense for wanting both words to mean the same things. I dont think Kishi is that dumb

 

[HST_Master]

You are correct, but in that same note, all of what you said is acomplished by her saying his Chakra was "Colder". There is no need for her to Note his Chakra is Thick and Cold when it being cold accomplishes all of that. Given this, trying to equate "Thicker" to the other terminology still makes no sense.

And "Thicker" is not a synonym of Darker or Menacing. It's a synonym for "Dense".


In the context given yes it is used as a Synonym for Darker

And yet again the same can be said for her comment on Naruto's chakra, she has no need to say Bright and Warm

There's also the fact she said Thicker 1st, not Colder

And along with the official subs trading thick for intense and fansubs trading it for Darker

To take as a means of his strength and not his mental state would totally ignoring the context for the sake of an upgrade @Astral

Japanese words have multiple meanings The Japanese word for star "Hoshi" could also be used to mean a Planet

 

[HST_Master]

even more so, Ino comments on his chakra being Darker in CMS1 in the Forest of Death.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@HSTMaster

My dude, you can't use non-canon sources to validate that stance.

• "Thicker" is not a synonym for Darker, Intense, Menacing, etc."

The term is not comparable to those terms. Hell, the terminology Kishi uses in consistent throughout the series:


Contextually speaking, it is more than possible for this scene to imply Sasuke's Chakra has strengthened. And gotten more "Vile, Cold, Menacing, Dark, etc." At the same time. He was about to go into battle, so this could easily be taken as Kishi telling us that Sasuke has gotten stronger, as Kishi in on record stating he tries to keep Naruto and Sasuke even.
Not that i'm saying that is the case here, just that it is possible, especially considering again, Kishi has been consistent throughout the series with the type of termnology he uses for such stuff and the fact that "Thicker" is not comparable to said Terminology Kishi consistently uses when describing Chakra in regards to those "feelings".

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

It's getting pretty hostile in here I realize, but good eye HST Master.

I would read it as dark and cold. This is literally consistent with Karin's description of Naruto which she says is the opposite of Sasuke's. She says Naruto's is Bright and Warm.

The opposite of Bright would be Dark. The opposite of Warm would be Cold. Nice find there using fan translations, it's true Viz does mess up every now and then.

 

[HST_Master]

@TFO


Thing is, that still wouldn't make sense as base Naruto is Town Level

It also wouldn't make sense for one translation to mean Darker in personality and another to mean in strength. And like Imade said it's perfectly consistent with Karin's comment on Naruto which absolutely has nothing to do with strength.


There's also the type of training in Naruto.

-If he was training to use his MS better(which also doesn't make sense) then why would he do any general physical training? Several moments in the series have shown that you can get a more powerful jutsu without the need to be overall stronger (Unless it's like Gai and Lee's training or Frog Kata) for examples Rasenshuriken


-And how MS works goes against this too. Sharingan is closely tied with an Uchiha's feelings, it's why he was able to unlock Amaterasu and why he was capable of using complete Susano'o after thinking on Itachi's words and Armored Susano'o momentarily after he got done raving about Itachi.


He would have NO reason to train because it comes to him based on his feelings.


@Imade

I rather use fan translations than Viz tbh especially after DB's translations

 

[TheFinalOrder]

I want to wait and get more opinions. I'm personally exhausted by the topic now. I made my piece, now i'll wait for a general concensus.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Bump

 

[AstralKing7]

Sasuke needs to do phyiscal training cause he states that when he uses Susanno his bones hurt. Anyone remember that?

 

[AstralKing7]

base naruto should also techincally be 7A during the Kage summit and on cause he didnt do any training from that point on after the TUrtle island for his base.

 

[AppleLord]

The OP is correct about the density of chakra as is mention across the manga. 7-A post Kage summit Sasuke shouldn't be to far fetch since he almost took down the Raikage who should be the second strongest next to Sunade. He also fought Mei who fought Edo Madara. I agree with this upgrade.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Naruto should be 7-A based on the fact that he could match Pain 1 v 1, and pain is physically 7-A. I was going to make a thread about that next, but made this first. But both Sasuke and Naruto (Kage Summit and Post Pain Arc would be 7-A).

 

[AstralKing7]

yeah Base naruto being atleast 7A is more important that sauske cause he would help sasuke scale in their clash at the bridge.

I always knew naruto in his base should atleast scale to pain a little cause he could keep up with him by blocking his attacks and with reaction speed.

 

[BlackeJan]

Naruto should be 7-A based on the fact that he could match Pain 1 v 1, and pain is physically 7-A. I was going to make a thread about that next, but made this first. But both Sasuke and Naruto (Kage Summit and Post Pain Arc would be 7-A).

What? u should had done that 1st then lol i agree on 7-A Base Naruto vs Pain that then Kage Summit Sasuke would had also been 7-A. lol gosh dammit @TFO

 

[AstralKing7]

he would be very low in that tier tho tbh

 

[BlackeJan]

Well what is 7-A Pains AP lvl? SM was kicking his ass everywhere while Base Naruto = Pai