Upgrade For the Copy Ninja

[karo_senpaii]

So six path kakashi key is just rated as higher due to having no ap feats showing. While this is valid i still think his susanoo AP should have a key. First of all this is a perfect susanoo and if you look at the way madara talks about it's power here he talks about the power of the perfect susanoo in general. so i think it is very valid for kakashi susanoo to scale at least to madara. The fact that it has been enhanced by six path chakra and is winged like sasuke should show superiority. the second thing is when naruto talks about kakashi susanoo here he describes it as being more aesome than sasuke. You might want to attribute it to looking cool but considering they were in the middle of a planet ending war I think he was also talking about power.
Finally from this scan here, everyone is quite surprised as to how Kaguya attack was so fast and easily broke through Kakashi Susanoo. From zestu explanation it seems like the reason for thar is because she just got a drastic chakra amp, this would imply that prior to this the attack night not have been able to penetrate the Susanoo.

I have 3 proposals here,
1. give him "at least high 6B far higher with Susanoo"
2. "at least high 6B likely 5c with Susanoo"
3. A flat out 5c rating with Susanoo.

you can comment which one you agree with

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'm fine with At least High 6-B, likely 5-C, but I have doubts about it being accepted

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

First of all this is a perfect susanoo and if you look at the way madara talks about it's power here he talks about the power of the perfect susanoo in general. so i think it is very valid for kakashi susanoo to scale at least to madara.

Nu uh.
It being a perfect Susano'o does not really guarantee it being weaker, as strong, or stronger than Madara's. That depends entirely on the user's chakra level/potency.
Madara was referring to the Perfect Susano'o in a general sense, but from the context we know he's referring to his own because that's the only one he knows of. It's the only one whose capabilities and power he'd be aware of.

The fact that it has been enhanced by six path chakra and is winged like sasuke should show superiority.

No? Having Six Paths chakra doesn't guarantee you're at a certain level, at all. It's a type of chakra. It has no baseline. The strength of its users varies based on how much of it they have.

the second thing is when naruto talks about kakashi susanoo here he describes it as being more aesome than sasuke. You might want to attribute it to looking cool but considering they were in the middle of a planet ending war I think he was also talking about power.

Naruto calls a lot of people "awesome". If we started scaling based on that, we're gonna have a lot of issues.

Finally from this scan here, everyone is quite surprised as to how Kaguya attack was so fast and easily broke through Kakashi Susanoo. From zestu explanation it seems like the reason for thar is because she just got a drastic chakra amp, this would imply that prior to this the attack night not have been able to penetrate the Susanoo.

Kaguya being amped and people being surprised at her level of power is not proof that this power was required to breach through the Susano'o; that doesn't even make sense and was never really implied.

To be clear, I'm fine with Kakashi scaling to this level in theory. I have no inherent problem with it, personally. But there's just no real solid proof to place his AP there concretely or even as a Possibly. There's simply no good justification that I see, tbh.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I suppose you can say it stopped Sakura right in her tracks so it should physically scale above her, but she's not accepted to be 5-C atm so that doesn't particularly matter as WA Kakashi is already 6-C

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Fair enough, I guess.....?

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, disagree with this for US96’s reasoning. I can see an argument for 5-C DMS Kakashi, but it’s not anything in the OP.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Nu uh.
It being a perfect Susano'o does not really guarantee it being weaker, as strong, or stronger than Madara's. That depends entirely on the user's chakra level/potency.
Madara was referring to the Perfect Susano'o in a general sense, but from the context we know he's referring to his own because that's the only one he knows of. It's the only one whose capabilities and power he'd be aware of.

This Wasn't really what I was going for to be honest. We know a huge part of madara knowledge came from the stone tablet. When he talks about kaguya and all . I'm sure the susanoo was clearly mentioned by hagoromo as the path from sharingan to Ms and finally to rinnengan opened up. Narratively there is no reason why kakashi perfect susanoo would be inferior to madara own.

No? Having Six Paths chakra doesn't guarantee you're at a certain level, at all. It's a type of chakra. It has no baseline. The strength of its users varies based on how much of it they have.

This is where i disagree with you. I believe it boils down to potency and not quantity. If it was by quantity then sasuke wouldn't be able to lay a finger on madara. We know the six path chakra potency is directly from madara. And through this six path chakra obito was able to block and counter attacks from juubidara. So the potency is no joke. This same chakra is what kakashi now said upgraded the eyes to a whole new level. I believe all fingers in the story were pointing to the fact that kakashi momentarily reached God tier level. I was just using this as initial supporting evidence to show there is no reason for it to be weaker but seems now like stronger evidence

Naruto calls a lot of people "awesome". If we started scaling based on that, we're gonna have a lot of issues.

But that's not what naruto said. Naruto didn’t say kakashi is awesome. He specifically said kakashi susanoo is more awesome than sasuke susanoo. He was comparing the 2 and thought kakashi was better. If you can quote me somewhere in the story naruto made this kind of power comparism on a whim then I'd agree with you.

Kaguya being amped and people being surprised at her level of power is not proof that this power was required to breach through the Susano'o; that doesn't even make sense and was never really implied.

All I said is that they were suprised at her power easily breaking the susanoo and zetsu explained it was because her power had increased exponentially. Meaning without said amp she would not have been able to pull that off easily.



And also I simply asked for a likely rating mostly. I don't believe there is concrete evidence but enough implications for a likely rating at least

 

[DavidTPPM]

Kakashi being 5-C absolutely does make sense given his speed feats and abilities but has frankly has 0 AP feats to back it up.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Going with proposal 1, even with no 5-C feats, a Six Paths Susano’o should bare minimum scale above regular Susano’o. So I’m fine with "at least high 6B far higher with Susanoo"

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

Following

 

[ninjaking21]

I agree with At least High 6-B, likely 5-C that seems good to me

 

[Damage3245]

I suppose you can say it stopped Sakura right in her tracks so it should physically scale above her, but she's not accepted to be 5-C atm so that doesn't particularly matter as WA Kakashi is already 6-C

Sakura isn't attacking there... She's running.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Sakura isn't attacking there... She's running.

He counteracted the kinetic energy of her run

 

[Damage3245]

He counteracted the kinetic energy of her run

Which is how strong?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I don't think people just running would be producing the same force they do when they punch or kick, especially not someone like Sakura who specifically enhances her punches with her chakra enhancement technique. She's not outputting anywhere near that level of energy by just running away from something. Maybe if she used Shunshin in an offensive way, or something, but not in this context.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter much since, y'know, Sakura's only 6-C at the end of the day. She does nothing for DMS Kakashi.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Ok, I thought about this, but would there be any reason that DMS Kakashi wouldn’t scale above his New Era. His Six Paths powers clearly put him in his absolute peak, so he should at the very least be High 6-A no?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Ok, I thought about this, but would there be any reason that DMS Kakashi wouldn’t scale above his New Era. His Six Paths powers clearly put him in his absolute peak, so he should at the very least be High 6-A no?

There's nothing really connecting DMS Kakashi with his New Era self. New Era Kakashi was stated to have spent the last 15 years training, which allowed him to get much stronger and surpass his War Arc self by "leaps and bounds". Now, that statement was referring to the version of Kakashi that fought Obito and Madara, so you could argue it doesn't include DMS Kakashi, but still, there's nothing really connecting the two either.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The fact that it specifically says stronger than when fighting Obito and Madara sounds like it's excluding his DMS version

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Hmmmm, maybe.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

DMS Kakashi possibly High 6-A ftw?

 

[LordTracer]

Tbh I’m not seeing anything comparing DMS Kakashi to his New Era self. The statement not mentioning his DMS self doesn’t mean that it’s stronger or that it scales.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, it's probably a bit too vague.

I mean, if ya'll really want to upgrade Kakashi's AP that badly, there is a way. But it's not without its price...

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yeah, it's probably a bit too vague.

I mean, if ya'll really want to upgrade Kakashi's AP that badly, there is a way. But it's not without its price...

Show me da way

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Show me da way

First, you're gonna have to translate these two Kamui-related entries. If it says what Tracer and I think it says, you'll have your answer.

 

[RanaProGamer]

First, you're gonna have to translate these two Kamui-related entries. If it says what Tracer and I think it says, you'll have your answer.

Somebody call Arc

 

[MinatoSparkle]

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Not sure what's supposed to be so interesting?

Spoiler: Kamui Shuriken

カカシの"須佐能乎”が持つ武装の一つ、手裏剣に“神威”の力を纏わせる術。切り裂いた部位は時空間へと転送される。連射可能な手裏剣の一部分が接触するだけでも、“神威”の効果を発揮。そのため"神威”の成功率と効果範囲を向上させる。

“神威” の力を加えた三枚の手裏剣。“須佐能乎”が放ったそれは大筒木力グヤの右腕に的中。切り裂いた部位を時空間へ飛ばした･･･!!

The technique that Kakashi's 'Susano'o' wields, one of its armaments, is the art of imbuing 'Kamui' power into shuriken. The severed parts are transported to the time-space dimension. Even mere contact with a portion of the rapid-fire shuriken activates the effect of 'Kamui.' Therefore, it enhances the success rate and range of the 'Kamui.'

Three shuriken infused with the power of 'Kamui.' The ones released by 'Susano'o' hit directly on the right arm of Otsutsuki Kaguya. The severed part was sent to the time-space dimension...!!

Spoiler: Kamui Raikiri

カカシによる複合オリジナル忍術。“神威”の力を宿した"雷切"である。その神速の突きは、抉り取った敵の部位を時空へと飛ばしてしまう。

A compound original ninjutsu performed by Kakashi. It is the 'Raikiri' imbued with the power of 'Kamui.' The lightning-fast thrust of this technique sends the gouged-out parts of the enemy into the space-time dimension.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

The technique that Kakashi's 'Susano'o' wields, one of its armaments, is the art of imbuing 'Kamui' power into shuriken. The severed parts are transported to the time-space dimension. Even mere contact with a portion of the rapid-fire shuriken activates the effect of 'Kamui.' Therefore, it enhances the success rate and range of the 'Kamui.'

Three shuriken infused with the power of 'Kamui.' The ones released by 'Susano'o' hit directly on the right arm of Otsutsuki Kaguya. The severed part was sent to the time-space dimension...!!

A compound original ninjutsu performed by Kakashi. It is the 'Raikiri' imbued with the power of 'Kamui.' The lightning-fast thrust of this technique sends the gouged-out parts of the enemy into the space-time dimension.

Check out the bolded bits. Both kinda imply that Kamui Raikiri and Shuriken have to cut their targets before the effect of Kamui (the BFR) takes place. Meaning, they need to actually physically cut their target first before the hax takes effect. If this is the case, then this could potentially be used for scaling since it wouldn't be pure hax/durability negation. Which, to be clear, would suck ass. Hax is objectively better than AP, but ya'll asked for it, so there you go.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Check out the bolded bits. Both kinda imply that Kamui Raikiri and Shuriken have to cut their targets before the effect of Kamui (the BFR) takes place. Meaning, they need to actually physically cut their target first before the hax takes effect. If this is the case, then this could potentially be used for scaling since it wouldn't be pure hax/durability negation. Which, to be clear, would suck ass. Hax is objectively better than AP, but ya'll asked for it, so there you go.

Mehhhhhhhhhhh. That's even vaguer than the DMS>BE stuff. It could simply be cutting thanks to Kamui cutting through space-time.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Mehhhhhhhhhhh. That's even vaguer than the DMS>BE stuff. It could simply be cutting thanks to Kamui cutting through space-time.

That's not really stated or shown anywhere though? And this isn't how Kamui really works, either.

 

[RanaProGamer]

That's not really stated or shown anywhere though? And this isn't how Kamui really works, either.

Wouldn’t it just be limited to the Kamui Raikiri and not Kamui in general?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Wouldn’t it just be limited to the Kamui Raikiri and not Kamui in general?

Sorry, which "it" are we talking about here?

 

[RanaProGamer]

Sorry, which "it" are we talking about here?

The use of AP when using Kamui Raikiri

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Then, yes, it'd be limited to the Raikiri and Shuriken stuff. Normal Kamui is a different thing. Those two are other moves imbued with a Kamui aftereffect, if that makes sense.

 

[LordTracer]

Mehhhhhhhhhhh. That's even vaguer than the DMS>BE stuff. It could simply be cutting thanks to Kamui cutting through space-time.

It’s definitely not. Saying that DMS > NE because DMS wasn’t mentioned is clearly more vague than “it cuts, then sends the cut part into the Kamui dimension”

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You can clearly see Kamui Shuriken is just warping away in a bubble around the area it touches, that doesn't require AP first. It's severed because Kamui made it disconnect from the rest of the arm before sending it away. And we don't see the immediate impact of Kamui Raikiri but a similar thing could've happened with that.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Also feel like the fact that it specifies that mere contact activates the effects of Kamui and that the success rate of Kamui Shuriken is greater than OG Kamui debunks this

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm not gonna lie, those are good points, Sparkle.
And frankly I'll happily take the L on this because, like I said, I much prefer the hax lol

But that kinda brings us back to square one. Kakashi just has no solid AP scaling, unfortunately. He's destined to remain an incredibly overpowerd 6-C, and tbh, there are worse fates lmao

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I hate that for Kakashi vs Limbo

 

[karo_senpaii]

I'm not gonna lie, those are good points, Sparkle.
And frankly I'll happily take the L on this because, like I said, I much prefer the hax lol

But that kinda brings us back to square one. Kakashi just has no solid AP scaling, unfortunately. He's destined to remain an incredibly overpowerd 6-C, and tbh, there are worse fates lmao

What about the part where naruto says kakashi susanoo is better than sasuke. If hinata can use naruto saying no one will mess with her as a supporting statement why can't kakashi? A likely rating maybe?