"65+ feats"

[Absaddie]

https://character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_(Canon,_Post-Crisis)/Niarobi

Are we really sure he's only Solar System level if it's supposedly that consistent?

Can mention anything else in this thread when it comes to things deemed as outliers as well I suppose if you have anything to mention.

 

[Firestorm808]

I highly recommend looking at my feats timeline to see the consistency and sources of Superman feats.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/Superman_Feats_Timeline_Project

I don't have time to go over all of the feats your link has, but I'll update my post as I go along with their respective sources. There are numerous errors.

• AP
  • Zero Hour Vol 1 #0 September 1994
    • Unknow | Superman's heat vision made up one-fourth of the power capable of creating a universe and causing the defeat of Hal Jordan, who was going to create a new universe, and the attack caused a Big Bang to occur.
      • The Ray, Darkstar (Donna Troy), Captain Atom, and Kyle Rayner absorb the plasma energy universe Parallax created, absorbing most of Parallax's energy.
      • Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar, and the Ray send energy into Waverider who channels it into Damage. After, Spectre channels more energy into Damage, and a new Big Bang occurs.
      • Nothing states that Superman is contributing equally. Captain Atom and Spectre, Universal characters when not holding back, are contributing as well.
  • Our Worlds at War | Superman Vol 2 #172 September 2001
    • 3-B | After being powered up by Kismet, he defeated Imperiex-Prime, who contains the power of and causes a twelve-and-a-third-dimensional Big Bang.
    • Superman Amped with Kismet only breached his armor. It is only with his self-destruct that Imperiex is Universal. Prior, he already consumed multiple galaxies. We are aware that one universe in DC has layers of dimension; however, they still follow along one timeline. This is universal or one timeline worth. Hyperversal in DC means to be even stronger than the New God's Godheads.
  • 4-B | Superman fought Imperiex probes for several days, | Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #594 September 2001
    • who can individually fight against and mortally wound Aquaman,
      • who was causing the universe to collapse on itself. | JLA Vol 1 #75 January 2003
    • Imperiex Probes aren't universal. They need a machine just to destroy Galaxies.
  • Superman fought against Nebula Man, who is a universe. | JLA Classified Vol 1 #3 March 2005
    • All Superman did was punch him once with no visible damage, and take a head laser. Then Nebula Man just left.
  • Infinite Crisis | Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #5 April 2006, Superman Vol 2 #226 April 2006, Action Comics Vol 1 #836 April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #649 April 2006
    • Low 2-C | Post-Crisis Superman's fight with Golden Age Superman rewrote timelines and shattered a space-time continuum. It was repeatedly stated that they would destroy each others' universes and then eventually they started shattering the universe again, and they were again shown rewriting timelines. The DC Comics website confirms that the two were shaking the space-time continuum apart.
    • Post-Crisis Superman defeated Superboy-Prime alongside Golden Age Superman, who can withstand a Big Bang, and who was considered on par with the Silver Age Anti-Monitor, who was going to consume the universe and was defeated by Golden Age Superman and Superboy-Prime even after absorbing all energy from the antimatter universe and using it to fight them.
      • Post-Crisis Superman only defeats Superboy after they crashed through a red sun. Superboy outright murders Kal-L.
    • Post-Crisis Superman was shown earlier to stalemate Golden Age Superman, who stalemated Silver Age Superman, who caused a universe to be created following the death of Maaldor, tanked the Big Bang, burst through the bounds of infinity, shattered the barriers of space and time casually while flying, delivered a blow greater than any force in the universe, and fought against Blackstarr, a woman capable of destroying the universe and attacking him with the gravitational force of the whole universe, who also has absolute control over all aspects of the cosmos and all forces that created the universe.
      • You can't scale Post-Crisis Superman to Silver Age Superman because Golden Age Superman has grown much weaker up to Infinite Crisis.
  • Superman fights Blackstar, who wields the energies of the cosmos. | Action Comics Vol 1 #850 July 2007
    • How do you quantify this?
  • Superman punched back Orion | Death of the New Gods Vol 1 #2 December 2007
    • On New Genesis, the two exchanged punches and are described by Mr, Miracle to be evenly matched.
      • This is a boom tube amped Superman.
    • and fought on par with him on another occasion, | Action Comics Vol 1 #753 April 1999, Superman: The Man of Tomorrow Vol 1 #13 March 1999
      • Superman stated after the fight that without his close exposure to the sun that the League might have killed him.
    • who tanked a weapon capable of annihilating the universe, | Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol 1 #3 May 1997- #5
      • Darkseid has pillaged the universe, destroying whole worlds to steal the power of the gods. He amassed power beyond ability to reckon. It is only through the Astro-Force that Orion is able to contain the Oblivion Bomb.
    • as well as having one-fifth the power of a Big Bang.
      • That's not what happened at all. Fate gathers the five of them together to form a cinque of cosmic power, pooling all of their mystic energies from their links to magic, the source, mystical forces, and a fragment of Anti-Life to hold back the relentless Entity, but even Fate knows this near-omnipotent power can't hold back Anti-Life. With no other options, Doctor Fate is forced to resort to a mystic firebreak, destroying the bridging dimension entirely, stopping the Entity's advance into their own. | Cosmic Odyssey Vol 1 #4 March 1989
  • Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds Vol 1 #4 June 2009
    • Superman fought 30th-century Mordru who had all of the magical power of a universe.
    • Superman fought the Time Trapper, who is a sentient timeline capable of shattering timelines.
  • Superman has fought Brainiac 13 o three different occasions,
    • who can ravage timelines and rewrite the universe.
  • Superman fought Monarch, whose quantum power is like the Big Bang, and whose fight with Captain Atom was twisting space and time and causing compressed universes to explode.
    • Captain Atom has destroyed and recreated the universe and can freely control it, and was going to destroy several universes, and oneshotted Jenny Quantum, who created a universe, tear apart a reality, contain a universe with her powers, and annihilated the Doctor, who can create a universe, and yet is weaker than Superman.
  • Superman tanked a punch from Icon,
    • who killed Starbreaker, who killed someone who was holding the universe together. | Justice League of America Vol 2 #33 July 2009
      • Icon doesn't even phase Starbreaker let alone kill him.
  • Superman is stronger than Doctor Sivana, who had the power of Shazam, who fought and stalemated the Invincible Ma for several hours, who wields the power of the Big Bang.
    • This is Silver Age Superman
  • Superman survived an encounter with a tesseract swarm.
    • What is a Tesseract Swarm?
  • Superman defeats Black Adam,
    • who survived a tesseract expanding in his head.
    • Superman stalemates amped Shazam right after fighting Black Adam, who tanked a tesseract bomb in his base.
    • Black Adam isn't Universal
  • Superman fights Wonder Woma on multiple occasions, and even killed her once,
    • who can recreate the timeline with her Lasso of Truth, | Wonder Woman Vol 2 #136 August 1998
      • This was God of Truth Wonder Woman, not her normal state.
      • The Lasso, used to draw truth from the minds of others, is used to turn Wally's memories into living truth.
      • The panel says that they patched holes in the timeline, not recreate it.
    • can fight the Queen of Fables,
      • who is an extra-dimensional embodiment of evil folklore,
        • Extra-Dimensional is not Universal by default.
    • and can withstand attacks from 4-D when she's utilizing four-dimensional energy.
      • 4th Dimensional Energy is not Universal by default.
  • Superman fought the Red King, who ca reshape the universe and destroy possibilities containing universes one by one, as well as having created the universe with his dreams.
  • Superman fought and overwhelmed the Kryptonia God Cythonna, who warred for a long time against the Kryptonian God Rao, who created the universe.
  • Superman pushed through the barriers of space and time and then defeated the embodiment of his own Death, who caused the universe to compress o Superman, only for him to overcome it. | Superman: Where Is Thy Sting? January 2001
    • This was all a dream and mind manipulation.
  • Superman tanked Aztek's self-Destruction of four-dimensional energy.
    • 4th Dimensional Energy is not Universal by default.
  • Superman can withstand attacks from and damage the Lord of Time, who is four-dimensional.
    • Being fourth-dimensional just means that you can influence time. That doesn't make you universal.
  • 4-B | Superman tanks attacks from Firestorm,
    • who has the power of a Big Bang. | Brightest Day Vol 1 #10 November 2010
      • This takes place after Ronnie's fusion with Jason. The panel states that he could trigger a new big bang when he is at emotional odds, even saying this energy level is not his normal state. Those blasts at Superman are not Big Bang level.
  • Superman has overwhelmed Kyle Rayner on multiple occasions,
    • who defeated an aberration that was breaking down the laws of space and time and the universe, remaking it into a world devoid of cause and effect and reason, and these changes were reverted by Kyle Rayner.
  • Superman overwhelmed Starman, who can defeat Darklord Maaldor, who can become a universe.
    • This is Silver Age Superman
  • After achieving the Theta State, Superman fought and overwhelmed Dominus, who created his own Phantom Zone. The Phantom Zone is described as a boundless dimensionless dimension between being and nothingness and it resides within the Sphere of the Gods, described multiple times as a Platonic, archetypal world, beyond the Bleed, which contains all dimensions, in which there are an infinite number of. The Phantom Zone exists at the same level as New Genesis, which is beyond the bounds of space and time. The Phantom Zone also exists at the same level as Heaven, which is beyond space and time and contains Platonic shapes.
    • Replication of a dimension in a lower dimension does not make said person of a higher dimension.
• Speed
  • MFTL+ | Superman tagged Professor Zoom and was stated to have speed who rivals his,
    • and Professor Zoom ran to the 25th century can move through multiple temporal dimensions, was going to run to the past to change it during his fight with the Flash, and can freely move through the timestream.
    • Normal Travel speed and time travel speed are very different
  • At least FTL | Superman reacts to Barry Allen and Wally West while they're running through time. | Final Crisis
    • They ran at Superluminal velocity
  • Superman kept pace with Jay Garrick and Wally West while they were chasing the Reverse-Flash to the past.
  • Superman tied with Barry Allen in a race while holding back, tagged a fusion of Wally West and Barry Allen, and chased down and subdued Barry Allen.
  • Wally West ran to the 853rd century, outran the Black Racer to the end of time and the universe until death no longer existed on a conceptual level, he ran back to his time through the timestream, he ran into the Speed Force and changed history, chased Professor Zoom throughout time alongside Barry Allen, accidentally ran a few weeks into the future alongside Barry Allen, raced himself a few moments into the future by running into the future, Wally outpaces light, raced on a four-dimensional track that weaves in and out of space-time to the extent where sometimes he's shielding his eyes from the Big Bang and sometimes he's squeezing through a pinprick as the universe implodes into nothing, outpaced instantaneous teleportation from the point of view of ultradimensional gamblers, utilizes the source of the Speed Force to morph hyperdimensional gels while fighting a White Martian, and ran through time through the slipstream alongside Jay Garrick and Barry Alle.
  • Superman flew back in time to the Big Bang when fighting Brainiac 13.
  • Superman pushed through the barriers of space and time when fighting against the embodiment of his own Death.
    • This entire comic was a dream and mind manipulation.
  • Superman chased Superboy into the future.
  • Superman outpaced reality-blitzing missiles that were sterilizing the continuum.
  • Superman vibrates through to timestream to fly a man back in time.
    • This is Silver Age Superman
  • Superman can move fast enough to outrun temporal distortions in the past, present, and future.
  • Superman should be relative to Superboy-Prime who was capable of momentarily outpacing Jenni Ognat when she was running through time.
    • The scans do not imply anything about them running through time.
  • Superman flew into Hyperspace, which is a realm that exists beyond space and time.
    • Traveling through Hyperspace is MFTL+, not immeasurable. It's like Star Wars.
  • Post-Crisis Superman should be relative to Silver Age Superman, who flew back in time through the timestream until he flew through a timeless, placeless dimension, flew around Kryptonians until he whisked them into the timestream, flew into his past self colliding head-on to send themselves into separate points in time and then proceeded to fly into the 30th century, he tore through space and time with his speed before facing Jaxon, flew through the past one occasion with Batman, flew to 1971 to bring people some milk, spun faster than time to move into the past, crashes through the time barrier to take a man back to his time, bursted through the bounds of infinity, shattered the boundaries of space and time with his speed, hurls Jimmy Olsen through the timestream multiple times, streaks through the barriers of time and space, breaking through time-space to fly into the past, carries a bunch of people through time, breaks through the dimensions of time and space to race time itself ending up centuries in the past, is sent through space and time during his fight with Ultimate Ma and flies back; Silver Age Superman has flown through time so often that he's become immune to chronal distortions.
    • Why would they scale?
  • Post-Crisis Superman is relative to Golden Age Superman, who flew back in time to chart meteorite courses, flew through the time barrier, flies back in time by flying around in a circle to fly into the time barrier, skips out on a man by flying into the future through the time barrier, bursts through the barriers of time to run back three centuries, flies around the earth while breaking through the space-time continuum to travel to the past, flies back to his own time after helping people, and hurls an ape into the past.
    • Golden Age Superman during Infinite Crisis is not as strong as he was before.
  • Should be faster than Hal Jordan, who flew to the future without his lantern, and can travel a timeless distanceless barrier in an instant.
    • This is Pre-Crisis Hal Jordan
  • Should be at least relative to Shazam,
    • who traveled between atoms to go back to the Big Bang| Shazam!: The Monster Society of Evil Vol 1 #1, April 2007
      • Unless he actually tanks the explosion, this is only time travel
  • and can fight in a realm in between and beyond time and space. | Wonder Woman War of the Gods TPB Part 1
    • Being in the realm doesn't make one universal
  • Should be at least relative to Wonder Woman, who is fast enough to move into the Speed Force.
    • Not a Speed Feat | Christina has used the scroll to open a magic portal to the Speed Force. After a brief monolog telling how she will pull Savitar out to screw up his plans of being one with the Force, she enters the portal. Jesse gets back the scroll, but only after they both have reached terminal velocity, a near "tipping point" speed where they both are a hair's breadth away from never coming back. Wonder Woman runs through the portal and Lassos Jesse in an attempt to slow her down and talk sense into her. | Wonder Woman Plus Vol 1 #1 January 1997
  • Should be relative to Aquaman, who can swim in the Secret Sea, which transcends space and time. | Aquaman Secret Files and Origins Vol 1 #2003 May 2003
    • Swimming in the Secret Sea doesn't make him universal in the same way walking in Limbo doesn't make you universal.
  • Superman moved around in a realm of non-space and non-time. | Superman: Where Is Thy Sting? January 2001
    • This was all a dream and mind manipulation.
  • Should be relative to Silver Age Barry Allen, who ran into

 

[ThyFluffyDolphin]

About time someone compiled the feats here

 

[ThyFluffyDolphin]

Please do consider, though, that the Hyperversal/Outerversal feats either require amps from external sources, or don't make much sense

The Universal feats, however, absolutely have weight to them

 

[Firestorm808]

I'll be documenting them in my timeline with their sources and context accordingly.

I would appreciate any help on the matter.

 

[Lambdawg]

Following

 

[Absaddie]

I don't have an opinion on it myself, just posting to see others opinions.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Oh would you look at that, someone was competent enough to find some tier 2 feats. Kudos!

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Get someone like Ant or PrinceOfTheMorning here would be a nice idea.

Also get people on the Knowledgeable Members List who are knowledgeable about DC Comics here.

Me? (Pulls out popcorn)

 

[LordUrien935]

Following. Very interested to see where this goes.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

> You literally can't fly from the Fourth World to Earth without a Boom Tube

Adventures of Superman vol 2 is a large set of non-canon Superman comics that can cover stuff the mainstream comics wouldn't have the chance to or just don't want to be tied down with canon. So this is just an alt-universe like with Injustice, which is why Superman would be capable of just flying to Apokolips.

As for the page the vast majority of the Tier 2 or 1 scans are either: Wrong, horribly out of context, an amped Superman, or a weakened character they're scaling from.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the input. Should we close this thread then?

 

[Absaddie]

@Qawsed "majority" you say? Which ones aren't so invalid then?

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Firestorm

Super minor nitpick: the Astro-Force is Orion's base power, he doesn't need to go into Source of the Beast mode to use it or anything. Every one of his energy blasts is Astro-Force.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Qawsed "majority" you say? Which ones aren't so invalid then?

There's some arugments to be made with the Silver Age pocket dimension Kryptionians, but those are also rather inconsistent.

 

[TheRazaman]

I would venture to say that Post-Crisis is at least 3-A by the end of the Final Crisis storyline. Further I think the page warrants a subnote in the Key for the amps (at least boomtube) so that visitors to the page can have a proper understanding of the context for those feats, and in that case he is 2-C.

 

[Firestorm808]

I would like help examining the Red King, Cynthonna, Mordru and Time Trapper, and Blackstarr feats.

 

[TheRazaman]

Apologies, I confused my Crisis storylines. Superman is 3A by the end of Infinite Crisis. At the end of Final Crisis he's at least 2B, but more probably 2A. I'm referencing his surviving inside of the multiversal black hole that was destroying the Orrey of Worlds, and then killing Godhead Darkseid with his voice.

@Firestorm808 - what help would you like? Analyzing the scans for tier level or something else?

 

[Qawsedf234]

He's not 2-A during or after Final Crisis. He still struggles with significantly less impressive stuff after that story arc or scales to people much lower than Tier 2.

The site isn't going to upgrade Post-Crisis Superman's base form beyond 4-B any time soon.

 

[Firestorm808]

@TheRazama

I would like to know the comic sources and the context of their powers.

What feats are you using to try justify 2-B or 2-A?

 

[TheRazaman]

Both -- 2B/2A is as I mentioned above with his survival in the multiversal Darkseid black hole and subsequent killing of Godhead Darkseid. I just checked his page and that form of Darkseid is regarded as High 2A. It stands to reason in order to kill a being that powerful you need to at least wield a tool capable of doing so; in this case its Superman's voice and not some Supersword. I say 2B or 2A because its unclear, to me at least, if Darkseid is at full power here or a level lower (either way he's still capable of destroying the entire multiverse).

Firestorm - I'll look into some of those characters this week.

Qawsedf - I don't see why not if there is evidence to the contrary, and we properly contextualize if it was via an amp or not. As I said earlier, I think Post-Crisis needs an additional Key element to include at least his boomtube amped tier, and probably sundipped as well.

 

[Firestorm808]

@TheRazama

Unknow | Godhead Darkseid loses his body to a Radion bullet and his Soul to the Black Racer. Once all of humanity is preserved, the last remnant of Darkseid's mind appears to try and claim the Miracle Machine, but Superman is aware that Darkseid's essence vibrates like the multiverse does, and shatters his vibrational frequency with a single note. | Final Crisis Vol 1 #7 March 2009

 

[Antvasima]

Qawsedf is correct.

 

[TheRazaman]

That shouldn't be "Unknown" though. Darkseid clearly, as his page here states, creates/becomes a black hole that is destroying the entire DC multiverse. So he's obviously still at tier 2. Superman then kills that Darkseid.

.Firestorm, I notice you tally the amount of feats at a certain tier. If tier is derived from the mean or mode, then tier 4 makes some sense. But that seems a strange way to do it.

Or is mean/mode feats simply the tier calculation used here for all characters?

EDIT: As I've also mentioned in earlier posts, I don't understand why the Post-Crisis page specifically has only a single tier associated with it. Compare this to Golden Age, Pre-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint who all have at least two tiers for various amps etc. Surely Post-Crisis should have the same?

 

[Antvasima]

We have had discussions about the Post-Crisis Superman tier plenty of times before, and are not going to upgrade him from a bunch of outliers/inconsistencies. My apologies.

See here for further information: Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics

 

[Qawsedf234]

Post-Crisis has three permant amps in-universe. Or at least three stated amps.

• After coming back from the dead he gets stronger

• He unlocks his mental barriers after training with Mongul II

• After the one year timeskip when he regains his powers he's stated as being stronger

The first key (Pre-DoS) varies anywhere from 8-C to High 4-C depending on the issue, Post DoS doesn't have much better feats afaik, and the last two are just 4-B.

 

[Sandman31]

Not really an AP feat. Superman just used counter-vibrations to cancel Darkseid's. Its more like Superman using the way how DC works to defeat Darkseid. He doesnt need to be as strong as him. He only need to figure out how to cancel Darkseid's vibration.

He's done some impressive stuff with vibrations like when he did to that Phantom Planet

"By matching its exact vibration pattern, then reversing it he actually exercised the phantom planet from reality" https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3342361-5741580904-26303.jpg

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf & Sandman31

Thank you for helping out.

 

[TheRazaman]

I understand the reasoning for not upgrading his base tier. However, my other major point is that since, for example, Post-Flashpoint has multiple tier listings, with one of them being "2-C after an unknown number of sun dips" why doesn't Post-Crisis have a similar breakdown?

Its the only major continuity variation that doesn't have multiple tiers. And things like being sun-dipped or boomtube amped happened on numerous occasions in the Post-Crisis period (assuredly more than Post-Flashpoint).

Btw thanks all for the civil discussion.

 

[Firestorm808]

If you would like to propose a higher rating unders specific eras or conditions, I would recommend assisting me in documenting and analysing the various Superman feats for my timeline to see if such a consistancy shows.

 

[Absaddie]

I don't really have an opinion, was posting here to see if anyone else did.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you give examples of significant instances when he was specifically amplified by external sources?

 

[Firestorm808]

We have Superman with Strange Visitor (Kistmet) breaking through Imperiex's armor.

Should base Imperiex be upgraded if he contains the energy of multiple galaxies?

 

[AKM sama]

However, my other major point is that since, for example, Post-Flashpoint has multiple tier listings, with one of them being "2-C after an unknown number of sun dips" why doesn't Post-Crisis have a similar breakdown?

Because post-crisis doesn't have a similar feat.

 

[Antvasima]

We have Superman with Strange Visitor (Kistmet) breaking through Imperiex's armor.

Should base Imperiex be upgraded if he contains the energy of multiple galaxies?

I suppose that would be a valid upgrade, although I would be very surprised if the sum total energy contained within multiple galaxies exceed 4-A, or maybe even 4-B.

 

[Qawsedf234]

We have Superman with Strange Visitor (Kistmet) breaking through Imperiex's armor.

Should base Imperiex be upgraded if he contains the energy of multiple galaxies?

The issue with that was thst there was multiple other sources of damage that was targeting a specific spot on Imperiex. Not to mention that Kyle contained the energies long enough for Earth to theoretically teleport it back to Maxima's galactic space

 

[Firestorm808]

Did any other Lanterns help Kyle?

 

[Firestorm808]

Kyle Rayner helps hold back Imperiex Prime, but not the Big Bang | Superman Vol 2 #173 October 2001

 

[Qawsedf234]

Did any other Lanterns help Kyle?

I think they were still all dead by the time of OWAW