5D Ainchase

[XDragnoir]

Actually, most of the supporters of the verse already agree with the supreme gods being 5D, but Ainchase can probably also be 5D.


Cosmology:

In the beginning, only two things existed, Henir and Elria, Henir created his own realm using the concepts he represents (Chaos, Entropy, Ends), after that Elria also created her own realm, but she used the concepts she represents (we don't know them, but they should be opposites to Henir's) alongside with the ones Henir represents, thus creating an imperfect realm (both should be H2A.


Elria's Creation has at least 3 planes (Human World, Demon World and Elysion) and countless timelines (a 2B multiverse).


Henir's Realm is, unlike Elria's, a perfect realm, because Henir only used his own concepts to create a place to himself, the realm is completely outside Elria's Creation, having it's own rules of time and space (an at least 2B, possibly H2A realm).


Ainchase has full control over Henir's Realm, and later becomes one with the entire Realm, thus he should be upgraded to 2B, possibly H2A in both keys.


Immortality: Ain was created by Ishmael with a type 8 immortality on his mission, but as we learn after his mission ends, the mission is a limitation for his immortality, what give him his immortality is the god he is alligned with, thus his second key should have another type 8, because he is now alligned with Henir's power, not Ishmael.


Herrscher: i think Herrscher should be split up in two keys, one for his avatars and one for his true self, but this is just a minor thing.

 

[Ionliosite]

High 2-A isn't even a thing anymore, read these for more info: Tiering System and Tiering System Explanation Page.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't see anything 5D/Low 1-C here. And could you post scans for, pretty much, everything you said?

 

[XDragnoir]

I said H2A isn't a thing anymore, i said it because i wanted to be sure no one would think i'm trying to upgrade them to 6D (L1C).

Basically, Henir and Elria existed before the 2B multiverse, which is imperfect for beings like them. You want scans for what exactly? I don't have scans for everything, but i think SchroKatze should have all the ones i don't, we just need to wait a bit for him.

 

[Ogbunabali]

That isn't enough for Low 1-C.

And scans for everything you said in the thread.

 

[XDragnoir]

What do you think would be needed to upgrade them to 5D?

I'm trying to find the quotes saying how Elria created the world. For the amount of planes you can [[1]] page of the Elsword Wiki, which talk about the planes. The amount of timelines comes mainly from the light novels, [[2]] is a link if you want to search in all of them, but here is a quote from volume 6:

["This universe is now mine." It wasn't an exaggeration, it was just a simple truth. Who could possibly protest when someone who could freely wield time and space was saying he wants to rule the universe? Anyone who could stop him had fallen and no one was left. It was the time to achieve his long-cherished ambition. Those eternally long fights, eternally long pains, eternally long days. Countless times and times again, all those short-lived events. He remembered all those hundreds, thousands, ten thousands of years of time that has flowed without an exception. He had no choice but to remember. He came this far for that sake.]

 

[Ogbunabali]

Existing in a layer that's infinitely above a normal 4 dimensional space-time, or something equivalent of it.

And skimming through the light novel, 2-B seems fine.

 

[Ionliosite]

And skimming through the light novel, 2-B seems fine.

So you think they should lose their 2-A rating?

 

[Ogbunabali]

I didn't see anything about infinite timelines, only about "every possibility" which is 2-B. Unless someone has scans for 2-A.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, idk, Schro made the profile, he probably read something i didn't.

 

[XDragnoir]

My bad, the scans talking about infinite are in Ain's profile, but are not in english (they are in portugues) and the english version is also in the profile (at the end of the summary) but the word used in this version is Endless and not Infinite.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Can you link the English scans?

And even if they say "infinite" in Spanish, it shouldn't matter sadly. Endless would be 2-B, you'd have to get the original Korean (I think it was Korean, correct me if I'm wrong) text and ask one of our translators to get a specific translation.

 

[XDragnoir]

 

[Ogbunabali]

Where does it say endless/infinite timelines?

 

[XDragnoir]

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This is the korean version of the official site, idk if the in-game has any changes.

 

[Kepekley23]

Becoming one with the void that existed before the concepts of time and space is a Low 1-C feat, assuming it's that impressive.

 

[XDragnoir]

And creating said void is a 5D or 6D feat?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Becoming one with the void that existed before the concepts of time and space is a Low 1-C feat, if it's that impressive.

Not necessarily.

@XDragonoir If that void is actually 5D, depending on context, could be either, but most likely 5D.

 

[XDragnoir]

Glave: You may think Henir is dangerous because it's the opposite of Elria, but it's actually not what you think. Elria created this world using Henir's Chaos and chaos is an infinite source of energy. So, this world already contains some aspects of Henir.

Elesis: The world was made with Henir...?

Chung: I had no idea. What is the nature of Henir?

Glave: Extinction. Henir symbolizes infinity, but at the same time, the power to turn everything into nothing. Your mortality is the very proof of Henir's influence.

Aisha: How strange. I've read every history book I've come across but I've never heard any of this. Does that mean any knowledge related to Henir is being controlled?

Here is Glave talking about Elria using Henir's nature, again, i used Elwiki, because i never reached this part in game.

 

[XDragnoir]

https://elwiki.net/w/Henir's_Time_and_Space/Season_4

The above talks about a special dungeon which is controlled by Glave and created by Henir.

 

[Kepekley23]

Not necessarily.

Yes, it is, actually. Unless this was a physical void, which I wouldn't assume unless there was explicit evidence.

 

[Ogbunabali]

It isn't actually. Unless it is transcendental of the concepts of space and time, an aspatial/atemporal void doesn't mean anything. A void existing before space and time doesn't necessarily make it inherently transcendental of the concepts of space and time.

 

[Kepekley23]

Again, not true in the new system. If said void is portrayed as the infinite "cosmic nothingness" that existed before all time and space, it is considered, by default, Low 1-C. It is only lower than Low 1-C if the verse goes out of its way to demonstrate that this void is still bound by the Tier 2 constructs embedded within it, or something of the nature.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Pretty sure that's explicitly not the case in the new system.

 

[Kepekley23]

It is the case, though.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I mean, you can ask Ultima to comment here if you want. But being aspatial/atemporal not giving a tier was kinda one of the main points of the new system. And even on the tiering system page itself it's described as

"Low Complex Multiverse level: Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain english)."
Meaning, the void needs to transcend a basic 4 dimensional space-time manifold, and be of non-insignificant size, in order to qualify for the tier.

An aspatial/atemporal void that existing before space and time, doesn't, by default, mean that it is transcendental of it.

 

[Kepekley23]

> But being aspatial/atemporal not giving a tier was kinda one of the main points of the new system

No. The point was that being aspatial/atemporal was not automatically considered 1-A, not that it didn't give out a tier.

I have asked Ultima and Aeyu about the subject before, and a primeval void existing prior to 4-D dimensionality is indeed Low 1-C in the new system.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well, I'll notify Ultima about this when he's awake and get his input. I'm pretty sure that being a void doesn't default to Low 1-C.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well looks like you were right. I find it extremely weird that that's taken as the default, but it is how it's treated right now.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Huh. I agree that's pretty weird. Existing before time and space =/= transcending time and space.

 

[XDragnoir]

If the void can't be 5D (it seems it can, but whatever) the Gods at least can? Both Henir and Elria existed before Henir's Realm and Elria's Creation. And the new tiers if the upgrade is accepted, will be 2B possibly L1C or L1C?

 

[XDragnoir]

Bump

 

[Rikimarox2]

bump?

 

[Everything12]

It seems that it might be possible that Ultima no longer thinks such Void is proof for 5D, though it could also be a case that the Void of LoL didn't fit the criteria. I'm not sure, so someone might have to ask them.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Everything12]

Well the conclusions we're that it was 5D, but theirs a possibility that Ultima has changed their mind if that true since then.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So what remains to be done here?

 

[Everything12]

Probably contacting Ultima to see of their opinion is the same, maybe get some more staff opinions on this afterwards.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to do so: VS Battles Staff

 

[Everything12]

So Ultima said "It's case-by-case I'd say. If you are a primeval void of nothingness that is qualitatively superior to spacetime in relation to a 4-D reality, then I'd say Low 1-C would be fine, but more context is needed for that."

So I guess their might be a case, though I'm not knowledgable enough about Higher Dimension requirements or this Void to say for certain. So its probably best if the OP and the Staff who replied early come back to explain their opinions.