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5-A Kaguya (Naruto)

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Come on guys, at this rate, arguing against this is arguing against the established Chakra Control Mechanic in Naruto Universe. You haven't given any valid argument as for why Kaguya's other jutsu wouldn't be 5-A in AP with IT Chakra.

ETSB is specifically stated to get its power from victims trapped in IT. The ETSB isn't 5-B on its own merits in this case.

Kaguya's 5-A Tier should be with Infinite Tsukiyomi, not ETSB and because of Chakra Control (Established since part 1 and consistent), her other Offensive Jutsu would scale in AP with IT Chakra.

Even the DB says Kaguya's 80 GVP has the potential to be the strongest offensive Jutsu she has, which can only be the case with Chakra Control.

What is so goddamn hard about this? Lol
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Shinra Tensei| Hair Senbo
Click to expand...
Also, this isn't Shinra Tensei.

This is Eighty Gods Vacuum.

Kaguya makes that pose when using Eighty Gods Vacuum, the databook even shows that pose.

The same pose and Eighty Gods.

Using context from the supposed usage of "Shinra Tensei" reveals that it was Eighty Gods as well:

Chapter 684 flows as Kaguya fights Naruto alone in the ice world. Naruto momentarily overpowers her with Steam Release and then summons a lot of clones. Kaguya responds with Eighty Gods Vaccum until the clones overwhelm her and she escapes to another dimension. She kills the clone that followed her there and heads back to the ice world to see that Naruto is still alive and the clones are still there.

Chapter 685 (where this supposed usage of "Shinra Tensei" is from) starts off with a recap of how Naruto tricked Kaguya. Then Obito and Sakura get to work to save Sasuke (page 8 of chapter 685). Naruto is still fighting Kaguya with his clones and she still is using Eighty Gods Vacuum given her stance (page 9 of Chapter 685). Kaguya figures out which is the real Naruto and stops her attacks and heads straight for him as Sasuke wanders aimlessly in the desert dimension (page 10 of Chapter 685).

It's not Shinra Tensei.

ALSO:

Eighty Gods Vacuum does not have the potential to be her strongest attack, that is a mistranlations. Here are the raws. Here is the text:

ÒüìÒéïÒüƒÒéüÒÇüÒé½Òé░ÒâñÒü«þ×│ÞíôÒü¿þø©Òü¥ÒüúÒüªÕ«îÕà¿þäíµ¼áÒÇüµö╗Úÿ▓õ©Çõ¢ôÒü«ÚÖúÒéÆþ»ëÒüÅÒüôÒü¿ÒüîÕÅ»Þâ¢ÒüáÒÇé

A better translation would be:

"Combined with Kaguya's Dojutsu it is flawless, one body of offense and defense battle formatio built for the potential of battle."

µö╗Úÿ▓ - offense and defense

õ©Çõ¢ô - one object, one form, one body, one style

ÚÖú - battle formation

þ»ëÒüÅ - to build

ÕÅ»Þ⢠- possible, potential


Hard disagree still, by the way.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
TheFinalOrder said:
Shinra Tensei| Hair Senbo
Click to expand...
Also, this isn't Shinra Tensei.
This is Eighty Gods Vacuum.

Kaguya makes that pose when using Eighty Gods Vacuum, the databook even shows that pose.

The same pose and Eighty Gods.

Using context from the supposed usage of "Shinra Tensei" reveals that it was Eighty Gods as well:

Chapter 684 flows as Kaguya fights Naruto alone in the ice world. Naruto momentarily overpowers her with Steam Release and then summons a lot of clones. Kaguya responds with Eighty Gods Vaccum until the clones overwhelm her and she escapes to another dimension. She kills the clone that followed her there and heads back to the ice world to see that Naruto is still alive and the clones are still there.

Chapter 685 (where this supposed usage of "Shinra Tensei" is from) starts off with a recap of how Naruto tricked Kaguya. Then Obito and Sakura get to work to save Sasuke (page 8 of chapter 685). Naruto is still fighting Kaguya with his clones and she still is using Eighty Gods Vacuum given her stance (page 9 of Chapter 685). Kaguya figures out which is the real Naruto and stops her attacks and heads straight for him as Sasuke wanders aimlessly in the desert dimension (page 10 of Chapter 685).

It's not Shinra Tensei.

ALSO:

Eighty Gods Vacuum does not have the potential to be her strongest attack, that is a mistranlations. Here are the raws. Here is the text:

ÒüìÒéïÒüƒÒéüÒÇüÒé½Òé░ÒâñÒü«þ×│ÞíôÒü¿þø©Òü¥ÒüúÒüªÕ«îÕà¿þäíµ¼áÒÇüµö╗Úÿ▓õ©Çõ¢ôÒü«ÚÖúÒéÆþ»ëÒüÅÒüôÒü¿ÒüîÕÅ»Þâ¢ÒüáÒÇé

A better translation would be:

"Combined with Kaguya's Dojutsu it is flawless, one body of offense and defense battle formatio built for the potential of battle."

µö╗Úÿ▓ - offense and defense

õ©Çõ¢ô - one object, one form, one body, one style

ÚÖú - battle formation

þ»ëÒüÅ - to build

ÕÅ»Þ⢠- possible, potential


Hard disagree still, by the way.
Click to expand...
I'd have to disagree with that not being ST. Every Instance of 80 GVP, not only do we see the Chakra fists around Kaguya, but only one or two clones get capped by a fist.

  • In Chapter 685, we see a swath of Naruto Clones getting blasted away all at Once. This isn't consistent with 80 GVP portrayal, which doesn't knock away Naruto's clones, but destroys them on contact.
  • The image in the DB you've shown is the same Image in Chapter 684, not 685.
It is ST. But for what reason do you disagree with this thread.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Kaguya is 5-A due to the description of what the ETSB could do with the chakra of the IT.
Nothing says her other Justu would equate the description of the ETSB with the IT chakra. Like, why would her other Jutsu now have the exact, explicit, descriptive power that was stated for the ETSB? So her hair needles now do what the ETSB does?

This is very similar to Fairy Heart Zeref and Etherion from Fairy Tail.

Disagree.
Click to expand...
People agreeing with this post clearly don't understand what's going on in Naruto.

IMade Wrote: "Kaguya is 5-A due to the description of what the ETSB could do with the Chakra of the IT"

This proves the point of the thread. ETSB is 5-A due to the Chakra of IT.

IMade Wrote: "Nothing says her other jutsu would equate the description of the ETSB with the IT Chakra."

Except for the fact Chakra Control in the series dictates it would have comparable AP. This is what what you're arguing against....with no proof this isn't the case.

IMade Wrote: "Like, why would her other jutsu now have the exact, explicit, descriptive power that was stated for the ETSB?"

Because that "Descriptive power" of being able to destroy the world is thanks to IT Chakra, which again, Chakra Control dictates can be used to strengthen and empower her other Jutsu.

IMade Wrote: "So her Hair needles now do what the ETSB does?"

No, this means her hair needles would be strengthened by the chakra that gives the ETSB its 5-A feat. Like seriously, this is no different than scaling Naruto and Sasuke's other Jutsu from SPCT due to Chakra Control. The strength of a Jutsu is proportional to the amount of chakra injected into it. The amount of chakra is proportional to the DC/AP of the Jutsu as stated in the DB and proven throughout the verse.

So, if you are gonna claim her other Jutsu don't scale, then you by extension are claiming the same thing for Chibaku Tensei. Same principle.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Don't we have a discussion rule against this?
Click to expand...
This thread is saying the IT Chakra is what makes Kaguya 5-A, not the ETSB. The ETSB is 5-A because of IT Chakra and Naruto in verse Mechanics dictate that chakra can be used for other jutsu.
 
The real cal howard said:
I've read them all, yes.
Click to expand...
So you're saying you agree with an argument that ignores inverse mechanics that prove that same argument wrong? You're saying you agree with an argument that is clearly a double standard when we accept other characters jutsu scaling to techniques like Chibaku Tensei because of Chakra Control.....this is what you agree with?
 
Chakra can be allocated for other usages, but that doesn't mean it now has the same descriptive power/AP/destruction as what another ability is specifically meant to do.

Think of it like a gun.

The ETSB is a .50 caliber rifle that does it's specific damage.

The hair needles and Eighty Gods Vacuum are .22 and 9mm handguns respectively that do their specific damage.

Even if I could somehow magically put the .50 round into the .22 and 9mm handguns, it wouldn't do the same damage because they aren't meant to do that.

The ETSB could destroy Kaguya's world and the moon in it when given chakra from the IT because the ETSB's property is just a larger TSB that will erase what it touches and then remake it.

We're not gonna now change the property of the Hair Needles and Eighty Gods to be able to replicate this description of the ETSB when the former two Jutsu are not able to do that. Nothing even says Kaguya is putting all that Chakra into an Eighty Gods or a Hair Needle. There's also the fact that the ETSB was one attack, Hair Needles and Eighty Gods are spammed attacks.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Chakra can be allocated for other usages, but that doesn't mean it now has the same descriptive power/AP/destruction as what another ability is specifically meant to do.
Think of it like a gun.

The ETSB is a .50 caliber rifle that does it's specific damage.

The hair needles and Eighty Gods Vacuum are .22 and 9mm handguns respectively that do their specific damage.

Even if I could somehow magically put the .50 round into the .22 and 9mm handguns, it wouldn't do the same damage because they aren't meant to do that.

The ETSB could destroy Kaguya's world and the moon in it when given chakra from the IT because the ETSB's property is just a larger TSB that will erase what it touches and then remake it.

We're not gonna now change the property of the Hair Needles and Eighty Gods to be able to replicate this description of the ETSB when the former two Jutsu are not able to do that. Nothing even says Kaguya is putting all that Chakra into an Eighty Gods or a Hair Needle. There's also the fact that the ETSB was one attack, Hair Needles and Eighty Gods are spammed attacks.
Click to expand...
This is where i gotta stop you.

  • For starters, your analogy isn't valid in regards to Chakra Control. That's never been the case Naruto unfortunately. One of the most recent examples I can think of off the top of my head is from "The Last". Naruto Amped Chakra Fist > Odama Rasengan > Toneri's TSB > FRS. And speaking of which, Toneri with his TSB proves this point even further, showing using the chakra in them as attacks.
  • The DB doesn't talk about the properties of the ETSB or the TSB proper for that matter. All it talks about is the "Power Within" the jutsu itself. The Manga expains it's "Properties" are like Dust Release, but doesn't talk about the power held within the jutsu. The Power within the ETSB =/= it's properties and the DB states IT Chakra is what gives it its power to Destroy the World.
Thus, taking everything into consideration, the ETSB has 3 properties:

  • Power With It (Given by IT Chakra)
  • Inherent Dust Release Poperty
  • Ability to create things with it (Stated in Manga, DB (For TSB) and Demonstrated by Toneri)
These things stem from one jutsu, but are not 1 in the same.

________________________________

ETSB having the Power to Destroy a World the size of her dimension is directly from IT Chakra. The properties of a TSB is distinctly separate from the power within them according to the Manga and Databook. Kaguya's other jutsu won't have the same properties as the ETSB, but they can be strengthened by the world destroying power held within it that stems directly from IT Chakra.

Also, i'm not saying Kaguya is Inately 5-A. She's not. She's 5-A when using IT Chakra, and only her Jutsu are.

Also, you're ducking the Chibaku Tensei comparison.
 
Having enough power to do a 5-A attack doesn't instantly make all your attacks 5-A, batteries don't scale in full to the power of the user.

We have nuclear powered submarines irl, but obviously that doesn't just make all the non nukes on board tier 7 all of a sudden. I could theoretically hook up a car battery to a laser pointer, but even if it didn't just burn out/electrocute me I wouldn't just be able to go set a house on fire with it.
 
Look, I don't wanna make this an endless back and forth thing. It's clear you all will not budge, despite the arguments against this being extremely faulty.

As things stand, Kaguya's profile needs to fixed anyways as some of the reasonings are not legitimate and it certainly doesn't take into account the boost she gets from IT Chakra. So, this is what I propose:

  • The "Far Higher" aspect only translates to Madara as he also has access to Infinite Tsukiyomi and Juubito has to be discussed more.
 
@TFO

I never said I disagreed with verses mechanics. I was pointing out a flaw in your logic.

You claim Chakra Control makes all her moves equal in AP but your using a Data Book statement that says her 80 God's Vacuum has the potential to be her strongest move.

This is literally going against what your trying to prove. If Chakra Control is used here, she would not have a "strongest move". Her 80 Gods Vacuum can't "potentially" be her strongest move if Chakra Control dictates she can make all her moves that powerful.

Some moves are just stronger then others period. There is no way in hell, Naruto can make an ordinary Rasengan as strong as a Tailed Beast Bomb Rasenshurikin. This is way they make stronger moves, because some moves just aren't capable of being as powerful as others.

The Third Raikage's Hell Stab increases in power the less fingers he has pointed out, if Chakra Control was always a thing, he would be able to apply the same amount of power with four fingers as he can with one... But he can't.

This discussion is doing that circle shit and I got this to do so I'm outta here. I still disagree with scaling her other jutsu to 5-A but if you disagree with me then it's whatever.
 
Wokistan said:
Having enough power to do a 5-A attack doesn't instantly make all your attacks 5-A, batteries don't scale in full to the power of the user.
We have nuclear powered submarines irl, but obviously that doesn't just make all the non nukes on board tier 7 all of a sudden. I could theoretically hook up a car battery to a laser pointer, but even if it didn't just burn out/electrocute me I wouldn't just be able to go set a house on fire with it.
Click to expand...
The issue with this logic is that unfortunately, that is how chakra control works in Naruto.

  • The more Chakra added to a jutsu, the greater it's strength and intensity.
  • Using your analogy, Chakra Control Dictates you can literally take all the energy in that battery and eject it all at once. Your laser pointer wouldn't be able to handle that amount of energy nor is it built to do so in the first place, but again, this is fictional mechanics we are discussing.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
@TFO
I never said I disagreed with verses mechanics. I was pointing out a flaw in your logic.

You claim Chakra Control makes all her moves equal in AP but your using a Data Book statement that says her 80 God's Vacuum has the potential to be her strongest move.

This is literally going against what your trying to prove. If Chakra Control is used here, she would not have a "strongest move". Her 80 Gods Vacuum can't "potentially" be her strongest move if Chakra Control dictates she can make all her moves that powerful.

Some moves are just stronger then others period. There is no way in hell, Naruto can make an ordinary Rasengan as strong as a Tailed Beast Bomb Rasenshurikin. This is way they make stronger moves, because some moves just aren't capable of being as powerful as others.

The Third Raikage's Hell Stab increases in power the less fingers he has pointed out, if Chakra Control was always a thing, he would be able to apply the same amount of power with four fingers as he can with one... But he can't.

This discussion is doing that circle shit and I got this to do so I'm outta here. I still disagree with scaling her other jutsu to 5-A but if you disagree with me then it's whatever.
Click to expand...


  • The bolded is wrong as Naruto has demonstrated the ability to do so, which...hurts your argument here.
  • The 3rd Raikage could do so, but skill plays a factor in Chakra Control as well. And I know, que the the "Then what says Kaguya is skilled enough to do the same" arguments.
  • Apparently the DB was mistranslated according to IMade, it doesn't say that. But even if It did, I was only using it to illustrate to you that no, the ETSB isn't the Be all, end all. And Manga takes priority anyways and Chakra Dictates that it is "possible" none the less.
I'm conceding the 5-A scaling part though and instead opting for "5-B, Far Higher with IT".
 
TheFinalOrder said:
As things stand, Kaguya's profile needs to fixed anyways as some of the reasonings are not legitimate and it certainly doesn't take into account the boost she gets from IT Chakra. So, this is what I propose:
  • The "Far Higher" aspect only translates to Madara as he also has access to Infinite Tsukiyomi and Juubito has to be discussed more.
Click to expand...
Posting this again...
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017
ALSO:

Eighty Gods Vacuum does not have the potential to be her strongest attack, that is a mistranlations. Here are the raws. Here is the text:

and why should anyone trust your translation because ????????????

Also, this isn't Shinra Tensei.

This is Eighty Gods Vacuum.

and so where is her chakra arms ?
 
Omimi said:
LordGriffin1000 said:
Sorry but I disagree with 80 Gods Vacuum being stronger than ETSB. ETSB is something
Click to expand...
sry u/me/anyone cant disagree what writer says
if u dont agree then it look like we know more then the writer himself

Edit: also etsb is same as tsb but it was able to reach to 5-A cuz kaguya use more chakra then any other tsb user

etsb itself is not 5-A or cant be 5-A without huge amount chakra + chakra control
Click to expand...
lol
 
I see no reason to doubt his translation considering he knows how to read Japanese, unless you can do a much better job of course. He even breaks down each specific kanji which you can google the definiton of to check yourself.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
TheFinalOrder said:
As things stand, Kaguya's profile needs to fixed anyways as some of the reasonings are not legitimate and it certainly doesn't take into account the boost she gets from IT Chakra. So, this is what I propose:
  • The "Far Higher" aspect only translates to Madara as he also has access to Infinite Tsukiyomi and Juubito has to be discussed more.
Click to expand...
Posting this again...
Click to expand...
To keep this on track...
 
TheFinalOrder said:
TheFinalOrder said:
As things stand, Kaguya's profile needs to fixed anyways as some of the reasonings are not legitimate and it certainly doesn't take into account the boost she gets from IT Chakra. So, this is what I propose:
  • The "Far Higher" aspect only translates to Madara as he also has access to Infinite Tsukiyomi and Juubito has to be discussed more.
Click to expand...
Posting this again...
Click to expand...
To keep this on track...
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
I see no reason to doubt his translation considering he knows how to read Japanese, unless you can do a much better job of course. He even breaks down each specific kanji which you can google the definiton of to check yourself.
Click to expand...
yes i doubt his translation considering he downplay NV and biased
 
How about not starting this. Stick to arguing the characters, not one another.
 
I agree with the new proposal, that was stated by Black Zetsu and there is no reason to say that it is wrong.
 
etsb is same as tsb but it was able to reach to 5-A cuz kaguya use more chakra then any other tsb user

etsb itself is not 5-A or cant be 5-A without huge amount chakra + chakra control
 
Omimi said:
etsb is same as tsb but it was able to reach to 5-A cuz kaguya use more chakra then any other tsb user
etsb itself is not 5-A or cant be 5-A without huge amount chakra + chakra control
Click to expand...
The description of the ETSB is that it would erase the dimension and remake it. That's not something a TSB could do.
 
sasuke and naruto said it same excluding size(and we already know why her etsb is big cuz IT chakra) so i would take there word over yours
 
Technically a tsb erases too. A regular tab just lacks the size of that ESTB by a huge amount.

We should just brush over the creation part since this wiki doesn't accept Kaguya as being able to re create her dimensions for some reason
 
We should just brush over the creation part since this wiki doesn't accept Kaguya as being able to re create her dimensions for some reaso

not only that here we dont accept Kaguya as being able to destroy her dimensions either

5-A calc came from assuming that ETSB only destroying what inside the said dimensions(earth + moon)
 
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