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Ignore the title, im making this in a rush and it's misleading to get attention lol.

Well....somewhat. Necrozma aint 4-D. Neither are Solgaleo and Lunala. But the scale of their Mind Manipulation / Dream Manipulation should be 4-D in potency. And for a simple reason: They can mind hax Ash.

"But Kukui, what does Ash have to do with this?"

Another simple reason, actually. Ash's mind itself is actually 4-D in potency believe it or not. Back in the Diamond and Pearl anime, Ash, Dawn and Brock held a telepathic bond to the Lake Trio when they wanted their help to stop Team Galactic. And when they were captured by Team Galactic, and controlled by the red chain, all 3 of them had their minds attacked simultaneously as a result of their connection. And they survived it.

Not only that, but they also boosted the potency of the Lake Trio's haxes to work on both Dialga and Palkia at the same time when confronting them, while the lake trio normally need a combined effort to only effect just one of them. Ash boosted Azelf's willpower, Brock boosted Uxie's telepathy to speak to both of them at once, and Dawn boosted Mesprit's emotion hax to induce both Dialga and Palkia back to normal (the latters were under negative influence as a result of being freed from the Red Chain).

All of this is clear evidence of Ash, Dawn and Brock having 4-D potent minds.

"But Kukui, thats great and all but what does this have to do with the Light Trio?"

Was just getting to that. In the Sun and Moon anime when Nebby made its debut, Ash was forcefully pulled into a dream created by (not yet born to be?) Solgaleo and Lunala to speak with them and be asked to look after Nebby.

If Solgaleo and Lunala can forcefully force Ash into a dream they created, then their mental prowse would need to be on a 4-D potent scale to do that. Meaning, their mind hax would be 4-D. And it would scale to Necrozma for obv reasons.
 
Ehhh, i don't agree with the CTR

Ash has been mindhaxed several times by normal 'mons, so him having a 4-D mind resistance is very contradicted
 
Overlord775 said:
Ehhh, i don't agree with the CTR
Ash has been mindhaxed several times by normal 'mons, so him having a 4-D mind resistance is very contradicted
Not after Diamond and Pearl tho. At best, very few times which can just simply be outliers for those mon. The anime isnt shy at giving us humans with 4-D minds and mind haxes (Sheena and Damos would speak to that).

Also, Ash having 4-D mind potency is a plot point for D/P and lasted for half of the D/P anime (he connected with Azelf the second he saw him at Lake Valor).
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
I have a very hard time believing the Pokémon anime is consistent enough to support 4D mindhax resistance.
It doesnt matter if you believe it or not, we use the anime as much as everything else. This isnt an argument.
 
@Professor

Actually after Diamond and Pearl too, off the top of my mind, Ash got mindhaxed by Bronzong in the Arceus Movie, he was forced in to a dream by Reuniclus, fooled by Zorua and Zoroarck's illusions in both the movie and the anime and trapped in an illusion by Gothitelle

also if its an outlier for those pokemons, why wouldn't it be the same for the Light Trio ?

and pokemons writers aren't good at keeping constency between series, so them keeping track of a small detail like this is 0% possible
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
I have a very hard time believing the Pokémon anime is consistent enough to support 4D mindhax resistance.
It doesnt matter if you believe it or not, we use the anime as much as everything else. This isnt an argument.
It's not a matter of using it, it's the fact that this anime has dozens of writers that have gone on for years, one feat like that I doubt they'll remember for it to be legitimate.
 
>Ash got mindhaxed by Bronzong in the Arceus Movie

Knew this would be mentioned and its not an argument. IIRC, this happened before Team Galactic did their thing with Dialga and Palkia. Remember, Ash was holding a telepathic connection with Azelf for at least halfway through Diamond and Pearl, which would automatically be more consistent than just one instance from Bronzong.

You also forget to mention that Damos was mind haxed by it too. The same Damos who could mind hax it, dozens of pokemon at once, and connect to Arceus of all things (Incomplete one).

>trapped in an illusion by Gothitelle

Gothitelle doesnt create illusions, it creates actual pocket realms

>fooled by Zorua and Zoroarck's illusions in both the movie and the anime

Im fairly certain Zorua and Zoroark never put Ash in an actual illusion but just tricked him by illusion haxing themselves to transform into other pokemon. Which isnt the same as actually haxing Ash.

>he was forced in to a dream by Reuniclus

No it was Beheeyem. However, this would be an actual anti feat yes. But again, outlier for Beheeyem.

>also if its an outlier for those pokemons, why wouldn't it be the same for the Light Trio ?

Legendary status. Legendaries doing this is far more believable than regular mons, and these are legendaries who outclass Mewtwo of all things. So its not farfetched (pun intended) to say its not an outlier for them. Especially when they themselves dont have anti feats with their mind hax.
 
IRC, their minds weren't attacked, they were feeling what the Lake Trio felt because their hearts were synchronized.

Also, in Regards of the Bronzong points, I don't recall there being a particular instance in which it's stated or implied that the Jewel of Life takes place before the ending of the Team Galactic, and I don't think that it should matter that much as the links between Ash and friends with Lake Trio comes from the very beginnings of DP with Dawn bonding with Mesprit in the first episode and Ash bond with Azelf comes all the way back to Wallace Contest during May's brief return; and there's no particular reason to believe that their minds are any different from how they were before Team Galactic took over the Lake Trio from what I can recall.
 
According to Bulbapedia's description of the movie, Arceus and the Jewel of Life happened between Episode 135 and Episode 136 of the Diamond and Pearl anime, which is just Ash and his friends traveling to Lilypad Town for Dawn's Pokemon Contest. This fits in timeline wise with smaller things like Dawns Mamoswine having affection for her in the movie, while also being cooperative with her in the events of those episodes. The Battle Finale of Legend happens in Episode 152.

Also, It's not just a matter of "feeling what they felt" though seeing as their minds were also attacked when the Lake Trio were given the Red Chain (which strictly only harms them mentally since it's forcefully controlling the trio).
 
Don't particularly agree with the points, but I just checked and Dawn had her Ambipom in Jewel of Life, so yes. It occurred before TG's defeat. My wrong there.

It doesn't changes the later though.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Also, It's not just a matter of "feeling what they felt" though seeing as their minds were also attacked when the Lake Trio were given the Red Chain (which strictly only harms them mentally since they're forcefully controlling the trio).
Didn't they also felt when Hunter J turned the Lake Trio into Chocolate Statues?

Anyways. The fact that the Lake Trio was mentally assaulted and Ash and friends felt it doesn't means that they were as well, it actually (or at least most likely) means that Lake Trio is suffering as well Dialga and Palkia were during the afterwards of their control under the Red Chain and Ash, Dawn and Brock are able to fell it given their link, not because the control of the Red Chain is remotely extending towards them, which seems fairly iffy to be honest.
 
No, the Lake Trio were explictly fine after the Red Chains were removed from them. Unlike Dialga and Palkia who were surrounded by negative energy.

And I dont see why the Red Chain's influence wouldnt spread to them when they're linked to the Lake Trio, plus we see Ash, Dawn and Brock mentally assaulted simutaneously when the Red Chains were placed on the Lake Trio, implying the influence of the chains were also effecting them.

And unlike things like Hunter J petrifying them, the Red Chain doesnt cause physical pain on either the Lake Trio, Dialga or Palkia.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Legendary status. Legendaries doing this is far more believable than regular mons, and these are legendaries who outclass Mewtwo of all things. So its not farfetched (pun intended) to say its not an outlier for them. Especially when they themselves dont have anti feats with their mind hax.
No, them being legendaries doesn't allow for such dumb scaling, which would make their mind hax comparable to that of the muliversal creators of the mind and god tiers of the verse
 
It would just be an outlier for Ash and his friends.

Resisting a 2-B mindhax but being controlled by every pokemon and their grandmother before and after? Looks like common Pokemon's PIS.
 
YuriAkuto said:
It would just be an outlier for Ash and his friends.
Resisting a 2-B mindhax but being controlled by every pokemon and their grandmother before and after? Looks like common Pokemon's PIS.
Except they werent controlled after, outside of like 1 instance. At that point, its an outlier for the pokemon. Not ash.

And the before doesnt matter. What matters is Ash by the point of Gen 4 develops a 4-D potent mind.
 
Overlord775 said:
No, them being legendaries doesn't allow for such dumb scaling, which would make their mind hax comparable to that of the muliversal creators of the mind and god tiers of the verse
Remember Hoopa? A mythical who's weaker than Mewtwo individually and his mind hax is literally the best in the verse (controlled the entire Creation Trio and other legendaries simutaneously) right under Arceus.

Stronger psychic's who are the strongest non-god tier psychic legendaries having that good scale of mind hax isn't unbelieveable. And, again, their mind hax has no anti-feats, so they have the luxary of falling back on this as being consistent for them.
 
having higher attack potency doens't mean your hax is stronger, this is not heckin Dragon Ball

You need clear proof to say a pokemon has conceptual mindhax, not a crosscaling between two different generation when authors don't keep track of anything ever
 
No, but it certainly pushes the notion that these legendaries having hax on that scale, when inferior legendaries they outclass do the same, isn't hard to believe. If the Light Trio can outclass Mewtwo in aspects and have Multiversal cosmic awareness (which they do now), that clearly makes them a different case than a random hecking bronzong

And its funny how you guys argue for "authors not keeping track of anything ever" when this is the same anime series where Ash travels back to previous regions (like he's doing now), features previously known characters and pokemon, and has Ash remember everything on his journey. So your point here is just breeching into personal headcanon.

>Also the link with Azelf is long gone by Sun and Moon, which very likely is what amped his mind

Figured you'd say that, and its wrong considering what happened was the other way around. Ash and friends were amping the trio. Unless im missing something all of a sudden where a single lake guardian can effect both Dialga and Palkia.

Besides, Ash's mind had this link for practically majority of D/P. That means for a majority of his time in Sinnoh, his mind was 4-D in potency.
 
Nemo212 said:
This is a pretty clear-cut example of Plot-Induced Stupidity. Hard no.
Its not remotely PIS. Thats not even how PIS works.

It would be argubly PIS if, say, Ash and his friends did something better than the Lake Trio through this. They don't. This is clearly their own 4-D feats that dont rise above what the Lake Trio has, there's nothing contradicting or PIS like about this in any way, shape or form.
 
It's not a case of PiS, true. It is, however, a case of an outlier for Ash, Brock and Dawn that in no way serve as a feat to Solgaleo/Lunala three whole generations in the future when said outlier doesn't even get any mention not ellaboration outside of said generation.
 
Theres literally not a single reason for this being an outlier though. THAT is the problem with your counter arguments.

Your only actual points here are Bronzong and Beheeyem minx haxing Ash. And the former is a definite outlier since Bronzong also mind haxed someone who can forcefully mind hax Arceus of all things. Meaning, unless Damos doesnt have a 4-D mind all of a sudden, Bronzong is just an outlier all together.

And Beheeyem by itself doesnt invalidate this.
 
Sorry, but I still don't agree. Even if we want to say it isn't an outlier (for some reason acting like this is even remotely consistent), I still would disagree with the upgrade for the simple reason that it never got touched upon again.

Ash doesn't get any mention of having a special mental fortitude. Nor are the events connected to it's link to Azelf mentioned again once outside of the Diamond & Pearl anime. It is simply inconsistent.
 
You are literally trying to upgrade people for a feat that doesn't even get mentioned three whole generations ago. How can you even remotely act like it's consistent that Ash supposedly as a 4-D complex mind that anyone else can't mindhax.

And btw, it is also an outlier for Bronzong in that instance.
 
How about the fact that Ash never deals with anything 4-D related after D/P because nothing after Gen 4 is....4-D related? Hoopa is the closest thing to the Lake Trio's level of mind hax and this is a pokemon whos mind hax is the strongest in the verse barring Arceus. So it's not exactly something that goes against Ash.

This whole "never touched upon argument" is very flawed just because of that.
 
Agreed with Ash having a 4-D mind, disagree with everything else. Any Pokémon who affects a mind that is linked and has interacted with Azelf's is an obvious outlier for the Pokémon in question.
 
In fact, the Lake Trio choosing Ash, Dawn and Brock in the first place out of, what, countless people suggests Ash's mind/willpower is pretty special.

The Lake Trio could've choosen anyone to help them stop Team Galactic, yet they chose them.
 
@Kukui

It doesn't have to do anything with 4-D. They simply needed to say "hey, Ash has great willpower, amirite?". That at least would warrant a "possibly". But for the fact that this supposedly great resistance isn't touched upon again (in contrast to Ash's aura, mind you, that at least sre touched upon outside of Movie 8), I deem it inconsistent and even if we want to give him a resistance to mindhax on this level, absolutely no one should scale to it.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
@Kukui
It doesn't have to do anything with 4-D. They simply needed to say "hey, Ash has great willpower, amirite?". That at least would warrant a "possibly". But for the fact that this supposedly great resistance isn't touched upon again (in contrast to Ash's aura, mind you, that at least sre touched upon outside of Movie 8), I deem it inconsistent and even if we want to give him a resistance to mindhax on this level, absolutely no one should scale to it.
First of alll, I never said anything about giving Ash 4-D resistance.

Second of all, it doesnt need to be said when its literally flat out shown to us. Give me a single reason how god tier pokemon like the Lake Guardians, who almost never in their lives appear out of their lakes, randomly decide to just stroll up on 3 random humans and bond with them, if they aren't special or worthy? They could do that with countless other people in the verse, but yet Ash, Dawn and Brock fit the bill.

I want a good explantion for this.
 
It seems you are not understanding my argument. I don't care what happens in Diamond & Pearl. That's all well and good.

My problem comes from the fact that you want to scale something multiple seasons ago that isn't touched upon again outside of said seaso to people that have absolutely zero reason to have it.
 
And I can see we will start going in circles here. ovo

So yeah, still in disagreement for my reasons. At least show some modicum of indication that Ash has this incredibly complex mind outside of the plot of the season were it was introduced (and then never ellaborated nor mentioned again).

Then I at least can settle with a possibly.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
It seems you are not understanding my argument. I don't care what happens in Diamond & Pearl. That's all well and good.

My problem comes from the fact that you want to scale something multiple seasons ago that isn't touched upon again outside of said seaso to people that have absolutely zero reason to have it.
^ this
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
My problem comes from the fact that you want to scale something multiple seasons ago that isn't touched upon again outside of said seaso to people that have absolutely zero reason to have it.
Its never touched upon again because Ash never deals with anything on the level of the CT and LT ever again after Gen 4, besides Hoopa. Literally never. And that isnt a reason to suddenly reject this.

This is the equivalant to saying if a character stops a 5-B attack and defeats a 5-B enemy in one season of their show, but then never deals with any threats on the level of that multiple seasons later, they magically aren't 5-B.
 
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