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4-D Necrozma

Seems you forget that theres a huge difference between something being inconsistent and something never happening again.

Only the former is an outlier.
 
Btw, If someone performs a 5-B (or whatever tier, that's irrelevant) feat, and it never gets ellaborated nor touched upon outside of said, and even worse we have reason to believe it wouldn't be consistent, then that feat would be deemed an outlier.

Master Roshi says hi, and I dare you say to me that this is more valid than his feat, when his is at least mentioned in all manner of media, as opposed to this one.
 
>Master Roshi

Nice false equivalance considering he later gets flat out killed by a 7-B character (King Piccolo says sup). And to put salt in the wound, Master Roshi only had one 5-C feat in all of Dragon Ball.

Ash for majority of D/P maintains a 4-D potent mind rather than having a single 4-D feat. And the mon who mind haxed him is inconsistent in and of itself (unless U want to downgrade Damos to non 4-D too).
 
Once again, I don't care what happened in D/P. I care about wether if it's consistent with something outside of D/P. And it isn't, so no, I don't agree with scaling to it in any way.

Master Roshi still says hi, when he performs a feat referenced all over as it being legit, any guidebook and even game you could want, yet because Piccolo said a single line about his strongest attack it then got deemed outlier.

Ash doesn't even get a line mentioning again this great mind of his. It's a worse case.
 
By the way, after rethinking it, I just remembered. Beheeyem isnt even an anti feat for Ash since he doesnt create actual dreams.Like Gothitelle, Beheeyem creates actual pocket realities (outlier, yes, but still not actual mind haxing).

So Ash being within his dream world isnt even a mind haxing anti feat to begin with.
 
Yeah, I'm pretty sure King Piccolo is Moon Level considering Piccolo Jr casually destroyed the moon in Z with only like a 2 or 3x difference in Power Level, but you do you.
 
>Once again, I don't care what happened in D/P. I care about wether if it's consistent with something outside of D/P. And it isn't, so no, I don't agree with scaling to it in any way.

It doesnt exactly matter if you care or not, it still doesnt change the fact that not being referenced outside of it doesn't magically invalidate a feat done, like what, thousands of times per passing moment?

Ash hasnt had the chance to face something on the level of the CT/LT again after Hoopa and the Clash of Ages, so you cant use "never happened again" to argue its inconsistent. Thats not how this works.

>Master Roshi still says hi, when he performs a feat referenced all over as it being legit, any guidebook and even game you could want, yet because Piccolo said a single line about his strongest attack it then got deemed outlier.

Thats not what happened. King Piccolo did more than just say a single line, he flat out killed Roshi. If thats not a big indication of Master Roshi's feat being BS, I dont know what is.

Also, referencing the same outlier feat over and over...doesnt make something not an outlier. Its just restating the same outlier occurrence again and again. What would make the feat not an outlier is if more feats of that caliber happened afterward.

>Ash doesn't even get a line mentioning again this great mind of his.

See point one. 4-D stuff isnt relevant to Sun and Moon story wise like Gen 4 is, so why in the hell would they randomly make this statement you want so badly? Had they done 4-D stuff outside of the Lake and Creation Trios, and still didnt make that distinction, i'd agree with you. But they dont, so they wouldnt make that statement.

Hell, since you brought up Aura as an example, Ash being good with Aura isnt even referenced outside of Lucario and the Mystery of Mew. And just how many times has Ash encountered a Riolu or Lucario since then? A lot. Want to take away his Aura too?
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure King Piccolo is Moon Level considering Piccolo Jr casually destroyed the moon in Z with only like a 2 or 3x difference in Power Level, but you do you.
Click to expand...
Get a CRT done for him to upgrade him then if you think so. Otherwise, not my problem.
 
"Ash aura isn't referenced outside movie 8"

Funny, Iron Island episodes want some words with you. ovo

Anyway, I'm pretty sure majority disagrees (even Cal), so yeah. I have said my piece, still a no.
 
Majority isnt relevant if the argument still stands. And it very much does here.

Also, Ash was never stated to be good with Aura during the Island Episodes. They just revealed Riley being good with Aura like Lucario.
 
True, but when some of them are also main pokémon supporters (Cal, Overlord I believe too, and moi), then maaaaaybe start listening. ovo

Specially when main Pokémon staff disagreed, and it's honestly the one you should convince anyway. That and contact more staff, because this is quite the upgrade anyway.
 
I know its quite an upgrade, and Im sorry if im coming off as rather annoyed, thats not my intention. It just triggers me when most disagree without actually targetting the argument at hand.
 
Eh, no worries about it. I also apologize if I'm getting rude.

And nah, Brock wakes up in the episode and sees the others sleeping.

And that kinda would show that this mind of Ash depends on his connection with Azelf. And I don't think he is connected to him anymore?

So yeah, even greater reason to oppose it for me.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Reading the summary for Malamar's episode, it seems the reason Ash didn't get mindhaxed is because he instructed Meowth to scratch him, implying he would've gotten controlled too if not for that.
Click to expand...
Okay, THIS is a counter argument I can get behind and see where your going now that you pointed this out.

However, this anti-feat would only take the place of Beheeyem's (the latter didnt mind hax Ash, he created an actual pocket reality out of dreams). And if Bronzong is agreed to not count anymore, Malamar is the only anti-feat.

And for your other question, nah, Ash wasnt depending on Azelf but moreso both were in the same boat. I said this earlier, but Ash, Dawn and Brock had their minds mentally assaulted when the Lake Trio's minds were being corrupted by the Red Chain. Not to mention, the 3 have more 4-D feats of boosting the Lake Trio's mind hax to degrees they can't normally do individually.

Surviving the mental pain of the Red Chain and enhancing the lake guardians mind haxes shows they werent depending on the trio.
 
Beheeyem forced Ash in to a dream just like Nebby

Bronzong is NOT agreed to not count, only you don't count it

also if Ash being connected to Azelf doesn't boost his mind potency, then every exemple of him being mind haxed before counts an an anti-feat because his mind's strenght didn't change
 
>Beheeyem forced Ash in to a dream just like Nebby

No, he didn't. Again, Beheeyem didnt mind hax Ash or anyone, it created an actual entire pocket reality out of dreams. Nebby's was mind hax related since it was just a regular dreamscape.

>Bronzong is NOT agreed to not count, only you don't count it

You can't cherry pick here. Bronzong was able to mindhax someone who could mindhax Arceus and the Creation Trio of all things along with Ash. So, either you agree with downgrading Damos to 3-D mind hax (which by extension effects the god tiers too) or you take Bronzong as the outlier. You cant say its an outlier for Bronzong to effect Damos and then turn around to claim it mind haxing Ash is legit. Pick one or the other.

>also if Ash being connected to Azelf doesn't boost his mind potency

This wasn't what I said. Lets not make words up here now. I said Ash being connected to Azelf didn't mean the former relied on the latter.
 
Actually no, i am pretty sure they straight up said it was just a dream, also Beheeyem forced Ash to stay in the dream

Mind Hax Potency=/=Mind Resistance Potency tho

and the point with that is, either Ash had always had a 4-D mind in which case it's heavelly contraddicted by him being mind haxed many times before or he gained after the connecion with Azelf, in which case he would logically not have it anymore after the bond is lost

also, i am pretty sure the lake trio being amped by the protags falls under the "Power of Friendship" kind of empowerement
 
Dude, I'm not telling you that they are the specific case but a simlar fashion where the lake trio was suffering.

Because it has nor reasons for nor feats of doing so. Assuming it's not only iffy, but sets an standard in which every character that has a supernatural connection of this sort with other it's potentially able to receive resistance to an attack that isn't by any means directed at them.

Or that the Red Chain is affecting the Lake Trio.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And unlike things like Hunter J petrifying them, the Red Chain doesnt cause physical pai on either the Lake Trio, Dialga or Palkia.
Click to expand...
Hunter J petrification doesn't causes physical pain. Why are you saying this?

The bond isn't lost, it just doesn't really changes Ash aside from having a connection with Azelf. Which makes the first thing you said true.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
also, i am pretty sure the lake trio being amped by the protags falls under the "Power of Friendship" kind of empowerement
Click to expand...
It wasn't.

PD: At this point Brozong has way more "legit" arguments for a 4-D Mind Hax than the light trio tbh.
 
>Actually no, i am pretty sure they straight up said it was just a dream, also Beheeyem forced Ash to stay in the dream

Your taking "dream" too metaphorically rather than literally treating it as a pocket reality. We know it's a pocket reality because Dream Jenny was able to physically enter it via a dimensional portal that Duosin created. Which would be impossible if the dreamworld was anything less than a pocket reality.

Also, "forcing Ash" to stay isnt an anti-feat. The requirements for leaving Beheeyem's realm is that you have to know the dream world is a dream world, and everyone who is trapped inside of it must be awake. Otherwise, it's impossible to leave it. And they explicitly showed this when Ash and the others tried escaping, but failed every time because Meowth was still asleep. Beheeyem's feat has nothing to do with mind hax, it's reality warping.

>and the point with that is, either Ash had always had a 4-D mind in which case it's heavelly contraddicted by him being mind haxed many times before or he gained after the connecion with Azelf, in which case he would logically not have it anymore after the bond is lost

Or Ash simply didnt develop a 4-D mind until D/P? Pretty simple. And again, Ash was able to enhance Azelf's mind hax while connected, along with Dawn/Mesprit and Brock/Uxie. There's no evidence or reason to argue they "relied" on them or magically no longer have 4-D potent minds after taking Team Galactic down.

>also, i am pretty sure the lake trio being amped by the protags falls under the "Power of Friendship" kind of empowerement

This isnt Fairy Tail where random power ups come out of nowhere, these are feats that had actual build up. The Lake Trio specifically deemed these 3 worthy throughout the course of the series. Ash during the Wallace Cup, Brock at some point after that. And Dawn literally from the 1st episode. Out of countless people, the Lake Trio chose them for the upcoming take down of Team Galactic's plan.

Hell, even Team Galactic themselves were jealous of them as they actually planned to bond with the Lake Trio to help their plans. Well, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn at least. And the fact that Cyrus of all people saw worth in them goes to support that even more.
 
>Dude, I'm not telling you that they are the specific case but a simlar fashion where the lake trio was suffering.

Yes but that was only when the Red Chain was still controlling them though. After they were released, the lake trio were just fine. Dialga and Palkia however were still effected by negative energy of what the chain was doing to them after their's was destroyed.

>Because it has nor reasons for nor feats of doing so

But...it does? The instant the red chain was harming the lake trio, Ash, Brock and Dawn felt the pain their minds were getting simultaneously. That's pretty explicit.

>Assuming it's not only iffy, but sets an standard in which every character that has a supernatural connection of this sort with other it's potentially able to receive resistance to an attack that isn't by any means directed at them.

Well this isn't "everyone" since its just Ash, Dawn and Brock. Besides, you'd be surprised by the amount of humans the verse has given us who have 4-D stuff, far more than that of Ash here. Sheena and Damos? Their entire family has the ability to mind hax the god tiers. Hell, Hoopa and the Clash of Ages confirmed that there's literally an entire clan of people, which ranges from adults to mere children, who have the ability to communicate with Arceus. And receive powers from it in return.

The anime isn't shy, at all, at giving us mere humans with 4-D abilities, humans who made like a single appearence. Why its suddenly a big issue for Ash is unfounded.

>Hunter J petrification doesn't causes physical pain. Why are you saying this?

It turns them into some kind of chocolate statue. Pretty sure thats along the lines of some transmutation. Try getting transmuted without it hurting.

Also, whos side are you on here btw? Because its hard to tell when your arguing from both sides.
 
Azelf gets strong/energized in the presence of a strong will, this happens in the manga too, it's not exclusive to Ash.
 
NeoZex6399 said:
Azelf gets strong/energized in the presence of a strong will, this happens in the manga too, it's not exclusive to Ash.
Click to expand...
When was this stated? I have somewhat of a vague memory of this being brought up but id like to re-see the scan plz.
 
>Diasgree FRA

>Doesn't even explain what they are disagreeing with

Geez guy, even I could at least say something that basic.
 
Yeah, if they're going to mention that they disagree with it, then they either need to actually mention which specific disagreement they're referring about or their own reason of why they disagree.
 
^

Unless Ash's mind was changed for good by the lake trio, anytime that Ash was mindhaxed prior to this is still an antifeat.
 
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