30% Arcueid upgrade

[Inoue211]

So I was checking Arcueid's page and her speed and power called my attention so i'll explain as to why they should be upgraded.

Nothing too complex, Nasu said in F/E Material that Berserker Arcueid is the only character in Extra and CCC capable of "bringing Amaterasu to circumstances where it's possible to defeat her however little the chances might be"(a wink to Marble Phantasm).

Now we have calcs for CCC characters being MFTL+(this includes amaterasu), we have Amaterasu as large planet level and we have confirmation about Arcueid and Amaterasu. Of course this will also upgrade every "version" of Arcueid not including her Tsukihime(weakened after being killed by Shiki) version.


Also I would like to make a correction in Tamamo/Amaterasu's page: " full-power Arcueid would even have a chance of bringing her down to a level where she can be defeated".

This is incorrect because the entry in Extra material belongs to White Berserker. And also it's very important to note that in F/E Arcueid is nerfed because her master believed she was a God when in reality she is something superior to gods. I'll elaborate down here with comments in order to not make the OP too long.

 

[Inoue211]

First i'll post the White Berserker entry from Extra materials. It's from the wikia so anyone can check.

 

[Inoue211]

Now i'll post about the downgrade from "Planet" to "God"




And I'll also post the nerf of her Ultimate One skill.

 

[Reppuzan]

This is the right section for this, but I'm not sure if this should go through or not, since as you've stated, this is Fate/Extra Arc and the rules are different.

 

[KamiYasha]

The fact of "being nerfed because her master believed she was a God when in reality she is something superior to gods" seems more like a "game mechanic".

We just can't assume that because "being nerfed" it belongs to her Fate/Extra version, therefore is applied to her full-powered version.

 

[Inoue211]

@Reppuzan

There are no different rules whatsoever though. At least not for Acueid

@KamiYasha

It is not a game mechanic because it's part of the lore/story in F/E, when her master loses and starts to fade Arcueid regains her sanity and explains to him that him mistaking her for a God is the reason she was weakened.

This is also confirmed by the entry I already posted.


This simply cannot apply to full-powered Arcueid because full-power is Red Arcueid/Warcueid, when she stops holding back her vampire urges(Archetype Earth is beyond that), this is not the version the entry is talking about since the one we see in F/E is normal Arcueid. So the only version the Amaterasu feat refers to is 30% Arc, which at the same time upgrades all her other forms for obvious reasons


What was nerfed because of the god thing was her abilities and the skill Ultimate One.

 

[KamiYasha]

The fact of 30% Arc who is more than comparable to servants. Make jump from Town/City to Large Planet.. is kinda hard to beleive.

The only reasonable versions are full powered or ATE... (Which ATE is leagues above full powered.)

I understand whay you are saying but you need to know that some of Nasu statements are highly contradictory. My best advice is to be rated as full powered Arc. (at least is the most reasonable)

 

[Inoue211]

You're getting it wrong. Arcueid by herself is said to have double of stats a servant. But that's just firepower, after that most of her power when facing enemies comes from Ultimate One and Marble Phantasm.

"A. In the definition of Arcueid's strength, there's this thing where "her output changes according to her opponent". As an absolute order taken from her backup, the planet, she is allowed only an output a little stronger than her opponent. And. Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level"

My entire point here is that 30% Arcueid with Ultimate One is confirmed to be able to go at least planet level/MFTL+ because she's the only one in Extra cast that can beat Amaterasu.

While it is true that without ultimate one(by herself) she is city level, it is also true that she can go much higher.

And that's 30% Arcueid, not Warcueid(full power) and not AE.

 

[Reppuzan]

But that would imply that she's FAR above Servants, and there's no way she'd lose to Visual Novel Gil if that were the case.

 

[Inoue211]

Before we get more into that, do you agree that Warcueid(currently small planet) should be upgraded to Large planet and MFTL+? Asking so I know what we're agreeing on and what not.

And what do you think Archetype Earth should be left in? My suggestion would be "At least Large planet level+ potentially far higher" compared to "at very least large planet potentially far higher" that we have now. Also the speed

 

[Inoue211]

But that would imply that she's FAR above Servants, and there's no way she'd lose to Visual Novel Gil if that were the case.

I think you're mistaking the Gil vs 30% Arc quote.


The only reason Gilgamesh can win is because he doesn't activate Ultimate One, his power comes from his Noble Phantasms not stats(his stats aren't that good and are irrelevant for him), so Arcueid doesn't power up against him, she stays around her "normal" town/city level output and she falls pray to his variety of NPs. Nasu quote:

"Servants use their respective Noble Phantasms while Arc uses her unlimited backup to fight, and differences occur depending on affinity. A simple-is-best Arc is an all rounder, and so generally her chances of winning are only high, but there are those opponents that she just has helplessly awful compatibility with. For example, in cases where even if the guy's stats are about the same as Arc, he has a ridiculously large number of weapons with high versatility. As the amount Arc is allowed to take out is based on "single entity ability", against types like Gil-sama, well, you see? And the "5 Servants + a" line is a comparison of simple "firepower". Like with the "corpses", foot soldier level opponents aren't going to be avoiding their attacks, so the ones who'd have the advantage are the ones who have more weapons."

 

[KamiYasha]

ATE is already at at least 5-A, potentially far higher.

The "+" must be backed up with a calculation.

I'm still not sure about Red Arcueid bieng Large Planet and MFTL+.

 

[Inoue211]

Ok so you say AE stays as she is now but gets her speed upgraded?.

Can you explain why can't Warcueid be Large Planet and MFTL+ though? The lines about Amaterasu and Arcueid ARE referring to normal Arcueid, not her other versions. It's in the F/E material "Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: Berserker (White) [Servant?], p.202", the entry is not talking about non-F/E Arcueids so saying it's referring to other versions is wrong.


If Arcueid 30% can beat Amaterasu while having her UO and other skills nerfed, Warcueid which is much more powerful than Arcueid makes no sense being unable to.

 

[Yamatohime]

Arc at 30% tier based on her basic stats. When facing Amaterasu she will buff up as far as possible and nerf Ama by six.

 

[Reppuzan]

However, jumping her up to Planet level and FTL would allow her to stomp Novel Gil, which makes no sense.

Ultimate One is certainly a conditional ability and makes determining Arc's tier difficult. Along with Nasu's tendencies as an unreliable author I would keep Arc where she is.

 

[Inoue211]

@Yamatohime

Wrong. 30% is the name Nasu gives normal Arc. It doesn't matter if she buffs or not, she's still 30% because she is holding back her vampire urges.

Unless she becomes Red Arcueid then she is not using 100% of her power, Arcueid's real power is hax, not her strenght and speed, strenght and speed are irrelevant for her because of Ultimate One. Warcueid has better control of Marble Phantasm and can do other stuff normal Arc can't.

 

[KamiYasha]

I would keep Arc where she is.

Me too.

 

[Inoue211]

However, jumping her up to Planet level and FTL would allow her to stomp Novel Gil, which makes no sense.
Ultimate One is certainly a conditional ability and makes determining Arc's tier difficult. Along with Nasu's tendencies as an unreliable author I would keep Arc where she is.

I already explained this to you.

Arcueid that fights Gilgamesh cannot be Planet level and FTL simply because Gilgamesh is not Planet level and FTL. You need to understand that Gilgamesh's power comes from his treasures, his speed is normal servant speed and so is his strenght, when she's facing him she doesn't get a buff because the guy is a weakling in raw stats.


The Arcueid that fights Gilgamesh is her base mode, she loses because SHE DOESN'T UPGRADE. That is the entire point of her losing, and that's why Nasu says Gilgamesh is her natural enemy, it's about circumstances.


As for Ultimate One making her tiering difficult I agree, but i'm not saying that base Arc should be upgraded to planet level, i'm saying that base Arc has a power that ranges between city level(this is her base) to at least planet level(depending on her enemy)

 

[Inoue211]

I would keep Arc where she is.

Me too.

Leaving normal Arcueid asides, can you explain why do you think Warcueid is not planet level? I already explained up there why it makes no sense this particular version not being planet level and ftl. We can keep discussing 30% later but I want to take Red Arcueid from the list so the amount of things we talk about diminishes and this becomes less of a mess

 

[Yamatohime]

Arc by no means Planet Buster at base. Her UO nature allow her to buff herself up to such levels.

 

[Inoue211]

@Yamatohime

... that's exactly what i'm saying? I never said 30% Arcueid by herself is able to bust planets.

Look i'll try to explain it so that you don't misunderstand what i'm saying.

Normal Arc = City level to at least Planet level via Ultimate one(and only because of UO). Her speed should go from double servant speed(servants are hypersonic+ here with high hypersonic reactions) to at least MFTL+(CCC characters speed)

Warcueid = Small Planet level(Moon drop) to at least Large Planet level(Again UO). Speed from Massively hypersonic to at least MFTL+(again CCC)

ATE = At least Large Planet level, possibly far higher with UO. Speed at least MFTL+


By the way "double servant speed" I mentioned above comes from this "Also, for normal Arc, she would get approximately the equivalent of 2 Servants single entity stats."

 

[Yamatohime]

Warc has 33% of normal Arc. Additionaly Tatari failed to reproduce msny aspects of Arc.

 

[Inoue211]

In Ciel route when Shiki kills Arcueid for a second time and betrays her she stops holding back, well in her own route she drinks blood too. It's not only in MB that she appears. You're only proving than 100% Arcueid is as strong as i'm saying and possibly even more though so I don't understand your comment sorry.

 

[Reppuzan]

That would imply that every Servant and Ciel is Massively FTL and Planet level... which is absurd to say the least.

 

[Inoue211]

About this thread, I already presented various arguments and even materials for why Arcueid should be upgraded. If someone disagrees can you at least properly elaborate why? Nothing of what I posted contradicts itself(and I already explained the gilgamesh thing, which was explained by Nasu) nor does it go against ANYTHING in canon. Nasu has said several times over the years that Arcueid is the strongest and we already know for a fact that servants are not even close to being top dogs in the verse, this is honestly a no-brainer here.

If someone else that knows about the topic wants to reply to the thread(please read it before) it would be good too.

 

[Yamatohime]

Ciel route: Arc was still holding back but requsted backup. Shiki severed it and Arc withdraw because she started to lose her control.

 

[Reppuzan]

The whole crux of your argument is the use of Ultimate One to justify the speed upgrade. But the major problems are:

1. Character stats are variable, Ultimate One won't always be active and its effects are thus variable as well

2. We don't know the upper limit of this ability so applying stats willy-nilly will turn it into NLF

3. It implies that Normal Arc/Warcreid is on the same level as Archetype: Earth (which it isn't)

4. Nasu is terribly inconsistent and Arc never went against the CCC versions of Servants, so we can't tell for sure. In addition, Amaterasu exists outside of time, which further complicates the speed rating (I highly doubt Arc's speed upgrade scales to potentially Immeasurable)

 

[Inoue211]

That would imply that every Servant and Ciel is Massively FTL and Planet level... which is absurd to say the least.

What the hell are you on about? You're just posting nonsense man. Have you ever read Tsukihime?

Are you baiting or something? Seems like you're posting completely unrelated things.

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm not. One of your arguments says she should be bumped up on the basis that she overwhelmed Shiki, who is FAR below a serious Arcueid even at 33%, not even going into Warcreid. Heck in Melty Blood she has an explicit attack to decimate Shiki with the number of attacks he killed her with +1.

Her fight against Shiki in Ciel's route proves nothing about why Warcreid should be at that level.

 

[Inoue211]

The whole crux of your argument is the use of Ultimate One to justify the speed upgrade. But the major problems are:

1. Character stats are variable, Ultimate One won't always be active and its effects are thus variable as well

2. We don't know the upper limit of this ability so applying stats willy-nilly will turn it into NLF

3. It implies that Normal Arc/Warcreid is on the same level as Archetype: Earth (which it isn't)

4. Nasu is terribly inconsistent and Arc never went against the CCC versions of Servants, so we can't tell for sure. In addition, Amaterasu exists outside of time, which further complicates the speed rating (I highly doubt Arc's speed upgrade scales to potentially Immeasurable)

1-Are you even reading the thread? Honestly this is kinda annoying it seems like you're ignoring every post. I already said that Normal Arcueid should be City level and at least planet with UO, planet level ONLY with UO.

2-We know for a fact that that it can upscale to Amaterasu so that's why i'm posting CCC stuff, seriously are you baiting?


3-It implies nothing, it implies Arcueid is powerful. You're the only one here saying it's the same as AE, in case you didn't know AE should be way higher than she is because she's the strongest character in the verse, seriously the only superior character is PROBABLY ORT(we really know nothing about ORT) and PROBABLY some other type we don't know about. She isn't higher than that because we don't have feats. not because it is confirmed she is planet level.

4-But everything I posted is not inconsistent, how can you say Nasu is inconsistent when he's not contradicting himself at all?

He has said for years that Arcueid if goddamn powerful, here he comes and says that F/E Arc can fight Amaterasu. How is that inconsistent?

Arcueid's speed scales to whatever Nasu wants it to, if he says she can then she can.


If you want to prove he's being inconsistent then post interviews and materials where he contradicts the fact that Arcueid can beat Amaterasu, if you don't have that then you have no arguments.

 

[Inoue211]

I'm not. One of your arguments says she should be bumped up on the basis that she overwhelmed Shiki, who is FAR below a serious Arcueid even at 33%, not even going into Warcreid. Heck in Melty Blood she has an explicit attack to decimate Shiki with the number of attacks he killed her with +1.
Her fight against Shiki in Ciel's route proves nothing about why Warcreid should be at that level.

I literally never mentioned anything about Shiki.

You never read Ciel route right? you're just taking this and changing my words. In ciel route Arcueid loses herself for a moment when Shiki kills her, I only mentioned it to show that Red Arcueid is not only in MB but also appears in Tsukihime, I literally never said Red Arcueid fought anyone in tsukihime and if you've read the VN at all you'd know that.

 

[Reppuzan]

My knowledge of Tsukihime isn't all that great (I only read the manga) but we do try for consistency on this site. I just don't think it makes sense to have Arc at anywhere close to her full power when she is clearly weakened throughout her route and loses to Nero Chaos when by all means she would be able to stomp him if she has the power you're describing.

 

[Inoue211]

Man i'm seriously not trying to be disrespectful here and i'm sorry if I sound rude but please stop ignoring what I said and making me repeat things.

"I just don't think it makes sense to have Arc at anywhere close to her full power when she is clearly weakened throughout her route and loses to Nero Chaos when by all means she would be able to stomp him if she has the power you're describing."

Nobody is talking about weakened Arcueid. where do you even get this from?

And YES the whole point of Arcueid's route(and her character) is that she's weakened after Shiki kills her because she doesn't want to give in to her vampiric urges, she CAN stomp Nero easily but she prefers to die instead of giving in. Only after Shiki betrays her in Ciel route she for a moment almost loses it, she doesn't.

Arcueid at any given moment could've opened Shiki's head open and use her full power, she doesn't want that.

Even if you only read the manga you should understand that from her character, it's the basic. Arcueid normally uses 70% of her entire power to supress herself, that's why normal Arc is called 30%. The problem when Shiki kills her is that she's basically using the little strenght she has left to keep her body together and supress her instincts, that's why she's so weak during the near side routes.

 

[Reppuzan]

Kamiyasha and Yamatohime are better than me at this, so you'd better ask them I suppose.

 

[Inoue211]

Nah this is pretty tiring to be honest.

I thought word of god saying several things and those things not contradicting anything in lore were enough to upgrade a character but if that's not the case then I guess i'm just barking at the wrong tree.

Thanks for replying anyways, oh and sorry if I seemed rude.