2B and YorHa changes Round 2

[TheAngryOrange]

I decided to just make a separate thread.

Here are the Proposed changes.

Speed & reaction time: FTL+ (processing time measured in nanoseconds, able to outpace point blank EMP blasts, able to dodge point blank lasers, able to dodge point blank particle beam accelerated weapons).

2B Dodging Lasers

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2B Dodging EMP

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Dodging Beam Weapons

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NieR

For more information about this franchise, visit the Nier Wiki or the Nier Automata Wiki. NieR is an action role-playing video game developed by Platinum Games and published by Square Enix. The original NieR game is a spin-off from the Drakengard series, and follows the fifth ending of the first...

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NieR

For more information about this franchise, visit the Nier Wiki or the Nier Automata Wiki. NieR is an action role-playing video game developed by Platinum Games and published by Square Enix. The original NieR game is a spin-off from the Drakengard series, and follows the fifth ending of the first...

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Possible Contention: I also propose as a feat we include that she can move so fast she can turn invisible, something we see in many evades, counters, and mirage. I know Faster Than Eye is considered subsonic. But from my understanding, FTE is saying I did something (past tense) and I did it so quickly you didn't see me do it. This is I'm doing something (present tense) and I'm doing it so quickly you just don't see me at all. As in I'm currently running in circles in front of you and you don't see me simply because I'm moving too fast.


Attack potency, Black Box Detonation Attack potency will be Island level.

Blackbox Detonation

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A2 and 2B's intelligence should be upgraded to gifted. It was noted that A2 had excellent analytical and decision making skills and this was why R&D put the No 2 personality type into their executioners.

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2B and A2 should be upgraded to master combatant and pilot. The E types were specifically created to hunt down and kill other YoRHa, many YoRHa being programmed professional soldiers. Also, 9S discovered 2B's identity because of her combat capabilities. This carries to A2 since A2 has fought and beaten executioners before.

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Point of Contention: Her reaction is 4X faster with the evasive system chip. And her reaction and speed are both 10X faster with Overclock. I call this point of contention because before there was some debate on whether this is the result of her speed or a form of time manipulation. I say speed and not time manipulation because Overclock is a term used to mean making a machine run faster than it's supposed to.

2B Speed With Chips

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What is overclocking? How to boost your PC's speed and power by changing its CPU settings

Overclocking is the process of forcing your computer to run faster than it's intended to go, which can help you run advanced programs on an older PC.

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Regeneration should just be high-low since we see 9S reattach an arm. Or more specifically, he gives himself 2B's arm.


Other Edits:

I noticed Energy manipulation and project and acrobatics are under Pod. I propose we move both of those back to base. Acrobatics is obvious. Energy Manipulation and Projection because it isn't just pod programs but things like the fishing chair.

Strength: Not really a change. But I did crunch some numbers on other feats. Didn't bother much with them because they ended up being the same as what we already have (Class T). But I propose we add this feat. (Can Block impacts from kamikaze flight units)

Durability: Same here. Not really a change. But I did crunch some numbers on other feats. Didn't bother much with them because they ended up being the same as what we already have (Large Town). I propose we add these feats (Can survive getting hit by kamikaze flights units. Can eject out of kamikaze flight units and hit the ground).

Durability Note: I know the issue of the nuke survival has been brought up again with new discussions and the like. There is another thread for it. That can be covered over there. This is limited to what I've found so far.

 

[Nierre]

Neutral on AP. Speed looks fine to me.

Definitely agree with Intelligence, agree with 9S' regen, agree with the other small edits

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Just a question:

Adam creating the copied city couldn't guarantee somehow a 7B AP?

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I noticed Energy manipulation and project and acrobatics are under Pod. I propose we move both of those back to base. Acrobatics is obvious. Energy Manipulation and Projection because it isn't just pod programs but things like the fishing chair.

I didn't noticed the acrobatics when making the editions xd.
Well it's ok. Dunno how I didn't think about the energy stuff.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Attack potency, I propose that there should be no distinguishing her black box detonation and her overall attack potency. Since that is her power source, by conservation of energy, she'd be outputting the same amount of energy, just over a longer period of time, on a normal day. Also, attack potency will be Island level. This will only be for attack potency and not striking strength since the largest thing we've ever seen her punch is still Engles. Unless the rolly polly quadruplets somehow hit harder.

AP values is rated based on how much energy someone/something can unleash in a attack. They'll already be Island level via Black Box detonation. By this logic every single character on this wiki can have far higher attack potency via attacking overtime. Think of the Androids in Dragon Ball Z who's energy source is infinite.

They never run out and can unleash energy blast forever, since they never run out of energy. That doesn't mean they have High 3-A Attack Potency, just that their energy source is inexhaustible. We do not rate their AP as High 3-A, not unless they're shown to unleash all of that energy in a attack.

She isn't unleashing the same level of energy. She is unleashing far less energy, which is fueled by a far more powerful energy source. You must provide proof that she can unleash 6-C level of energy in a attack to have 6-C Attack Potency. As a 6-C energy source doesn't equal 6-C Attack Potency.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Adam creating the copied city couldn't guarantee somehow a 7B AP?

How did he created? And can you give a timeframe for how long it took him?

Did he just will the city into existence with his mind? Did he move other existing material around to form the city? Or did he do some quantum stuff to arrange everything?

Without any details of the feat, creating a city by itself can't be used as justification. Apologies if this is coming off as rude or disrespectful.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well there's no real cinematic showing how he created it, but he also warped space inside it to create another sky around it. That's why I thought it could help to give some upgrade in that sense.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Unfortutantly without a timeframe we can't really give any rating.

Even creating an entire planet without a timeframe can't be used as an AP feat. Since even Tier 7 levels of energy can be used to create planet given enough time. A High 7-C+ character creating something that is 7-B to maybe 6-C could still be done in a short time. Obviously if it was like done in a second, than that would be usable.

Unless the place is infinite in size.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Just a question:

Adam creating the copied city couldn't guarantee somehow a 7B AP?

We really don't know how he created it at all, not only that, it's not like we have a timeframe either

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Nimodo

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Unless the place with infinite in size.

Nah the whole thing is jist inside a big cave, it's certainly more then the city above it

 

[TheAngryOrange]

AP values is rated based on how much energy someone/something can unleash in a attack. They'll already be Island level via Black Box detonation. By this logic every single character on this wiki can have far higher attack potency via attacking overtime. Think of the Androids in Dragon Ball Z who's energy source is infinite.

They never run out and can unleash energy blast forever, since they never run out of energy. That doesn't mean they have High 3-A Attack Potency, just that their energy source is inexhaustible. We do not rate their AP as High 3-A, not unless they're shown to unleash all of that energy in a attack.

She isn't unleashing the same level of energy. She is unleashing far less energy, which is fueled by a far more powerful energy source. You must provide proof that she can unleash 6-C level of energy in a attack to have 6-C Attack Potency. As a 6-C energy source doesn't equal 6-C Attack Potency.

Understood. Change has been made.


In terms of time.

The beginning of the game to Adam's death took two months. The first Engles battle was on March 10. The second Engles attack took place April 7. During his second battle, he announced his intention to study humans by taking them from the moon. And he finally understood the value of pants. The carrier Blue Ridge II was sunk May 2. During the last battle he says he is studying humans by imitating them. We also know that Adam created many copied cities and not just the one. We also know that the Copied City has just been sitting there gathering dust for a while since he expresses disappointment that it's been doing nothing but gathering dead androids.


Forewarn: the following is a lot of assumption. But if we assumed Adam started building these cities a little before his second encounter, that's 4 weeks until his death. If we assume the Copied city had been laying dormant for 1 week, that's 3 weeks of construction. If we assume that Adam only built 3 cities, that 1 week of construction per. But we only call it a city because of the fancy things on the ground. It's just a giant cave so we'd probably need it's height and radius. Like I said, that's a lot of assumption. I won't blame you if you need something more concrete. I'll take a look at the books to see if I can find anything.


In terms of how, is it safe to say he used his telekinesis? Right before his third battle, we see Adam restructuring the city. And we see Eve create a practical tornado.

But even if he did create the city in one second, how would you measure the energy of that? Surely not the energy it would take to vaporize a location of that size. Cuz the energy to lift and relocate dirt would be far less than the energy to vaporize the same quantity.

 

[TheRustyOne]

But even if he did create the city in one second, how would you measure the energy of that? Surely not the energy it would take to vaporize a location of that size. Cuz the energy to lift and relocate dirt would be far less than the energy to vaporize the same quantity.

I have no idea. I'm assuming weight, but if he made it with telekinesis than it'd be by the heaviest part we know he lifted?

Creation takes up more energy than destruction in most cases yes. However since we lack a timeframe, speculation is pointless as it won't be added without proof of a timeframe. Even taking one day to build all of them likely wouldn't give any useful results unless we knew how much he moved/created in a second or less.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Also I pretty much agree with the rest of the things above.

The overclock thing makes sense for speed, though the game says time slow. But I feel like a overall speed increase would probably be best, since that'd also "slow time".

However where is the 10X boost coming from? Sorry if that is a noob question, I haven't played Nier in awhile.

Is it possible to calc how "slow" time moves in order to get how much her speed has increased?

 

[TheAngryOrange]

Also I pretty much agree with the rest of the things above.

The overclock thing makes sense for speed, though the game says time slow. But I feel like a overall speed increase would probably be best, since that'd also "slow time".

However where is the 10X boost coming from? Sorry if that is a noob question, I haven't played Nier in awhile.

Is it possible to calc how "slow" time moves in order to get how much her speed has increased?

I must've taken it out during one of my edits. There we go.
I'm still trying to get it approved, admittedly. The TLDR of it is I used a spinning arm attack at a base reference. It takes 0.5 seconds to complete one full rotation. While overclocked, it takes 5 seconds.

 

[TheAngryOrange]

Ok, so the chip speed numbers have been approved.

Before I get a thread mod to give the green light, a few things occurred to me. Rusty, you may need to set me straight like you did before if I get something wrong.

One is that we see Grun whack flight units on several occasions and they still function. You can get punched in the face by Grun in your flight unit and you still function. And you do take flight units down on foot. Can we scale the attack potency and striking strength to Grun's striking strength?

Second is that the Engles calculation excluded his legs. But we have the in game model viewer and developer artwork that has it.

I haven't done any preliminary number crunching so this could lead nowhere for all I know. At least Engles will be a million times easier to calculate than those blasted flight units. At least Engles is made of simple geometric shapes. The flight units are a bloody nightmare.

Leads me to my third question. Hecatia made mention I should just open a general Nier discussion thread. Should I get the above rolled out and save the numbers for a general discussion thread? Or should I wait and get these numbers first?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Speed things are fine. The island feat will only scale to black box detonation right? If so then that's fine. Can't speak about the intelligence thing. Rest should be fine.

 

[TheRustyOne]

One is that we see Grun whack flight units on several occasions and they still function. You can get punched in the face by Grun in your flight unit and you still function. And you do take flight units down on foot. Can we scale the attack potency and striking strength to Grun's striking strength?

Grun's "Striking Strength" and Attack Potency comes from the energy released by moving its entire body. Honestly that value shouldn't even be in its striking strength, but the profile is very old and I don't think the people who made the profile were aware.

Basically being hit by Grun's "arm?" doesn't equal to tanking it's full body charge. However it's impossible for something so small to be hit by Grun's entire body. The difference in surface area is too much. Regardless, they don't scale to Grun's calc.

If the Engles calculation could use a rework, go for it. A General Discussion thread is up to you, if you want to make one than go for it.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I agree with the OP, other than speed. I dunno what's going on with the speed stuff anymore.

The island feat will only scale to black box detonation right? If so then that's fine.

6-C is only for Black Box Detonation. Though we're currently trying to find if we could get inverse square law for A2's durability, considering she wasn't at the epicenter.

 

[TheAngryOrange]

Grun's "Striking Strength" and Attack Potency comes from the energy released by moving its entire body. Honestly that value shouldn't even be in its striking strength, but the profile is very old and I don't think the people who made the profile were aware.

Basically being hit by Grun's "arm?" doesn't equal to tanking it's full body charge. However it's impossible for something so small to be hit by Grun's entire body. The difference in surface area is too much. Regardless, they don't scale to Grun's calc.

I'll just calculate Grun's punch separately then. I just now need the formula for the energy of a whipping motion.


Ami I good to implement the rest?

 

[TheRustyOne]

We need more staff approval before changes can be made.

Also with Grun you need to take into account the Surface Area of the person being hit. Since they don't cover its entire "arm?" thing. Also machines aren't made of solid metal, there has to be some hollowness taken into account. Since a volume filled completely with metal would be an inanimate object.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Not really knowledgeable on the verse although I do like me some 2b but the calcs seem to be accepted and if staff, former staff and verse experts included, it should be okay to add. Agreed that the calc only scales to Black Box detonation, seeing as most people seem to think that's the case.

 

[TheAngryOrange]

I've made the change in the original post to clarify it's exclusively black box detonation. I'll calculate Grun and Engles at another time. Do we need more staff?

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I mean, he said it was ok to add the calcs and stuff since most people have agreed with, including staff, members, and experts. You can already apply the changes.

 

[TheAngryOrange]

Alright, the changes made.

I also made some other changes if that's ok. Just two.

One is that one of them still had Large Town + as AP and Durability so I took it down to regular Large Town since that was what was calculated (this one must've slipped through the cracks). Though, this is probably temporary. Preliminary calculations for Engles has come back as Small City (just preliminary, I want to check my numbers then get it approved). On one hand, I'm a little disappointed. On the other, it was to be expected. The normal numbers were already close to Small City and it was unlikely a pair of legs could make that big a difference. Grun, my hopes for bigger numbers rests on you.

The other change I made regards my personal pet peeve of people spelling 'lose' with two O's.

 

[FintanMajora]

I still believe thr androids durability should at least scale to 6-C. 2B and 9S only died because the nature of the black box is the equivalent of your brain exploding. When Number 4 detonated her black box with A2 in the epicenter, she came out fine, so this should 100% apply to durability. Whether it applies to AP or not is a whole different discussion, because there are times where it takes a whole battle to kill a YoRHa android and other times where they die in very few hits.

 

[FintanMajora]

considering she wasn't at the epicenter.

They were in the same room, the stageplay describes it as such. The server room they were in was under the mountain which they all were in when the Red Girls attacked them. Number 4 set off her black box with A2 screaming for her, it implies they were close enough to be in the epicenter

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

They were in the same room, the stageplay describes it as such. The server room they were in was under the mountain which they all were in when the Red Girls attacked them. Number 4 set off her black box with A2 screaming for her, it implies they were close enough to be in the epicenter

Being close doesn't mean you scale to the full force of it. You can be like 2 meters away and you still wouldn't scale to the full yield

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I still believe thr androids durability should at least scale to 6-C. 2B and 9S only died because the nature of the black box is the equivalent of your brain exploding. When Number 4 detonated her black box with A2 in the epicenter, she came out fine, so this should 100% apply to durability. Whether it applies to AP or not is a whole different discussion, because there are times where it takes a whole battle to kill a YoRHa android and other times where they die in very few hits.

2B and 9S literally tried to detonate their own boxes to kill the infected androids around them as well as the Engels. And we know the Engels are around the level of 2B and 9S

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So everything has been applied?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So everything has been applied?

The edits were very poorly done. I'll fix it when I have the time.

 

[TheAngryOrange]

Would it be worth noting that her body came out in one piece? We can still add that she died in the blast but it would be useful to note what can and cannot penetrate her chassis.

Also, perhaps I could get pointers on how to make the edits?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Would it be worth noting that her body came out in one piece?

Can I see the scan?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Also, perhaps I could get pointers on how to make the edits?

Ill edit it and you can follow the example I guess

 

[TheRustyOne]

The explosion took out dozens of YoRHa units with their combined blast, including tearing apart the body of multiple Engels. All of which are comparable to them in durability. 9S even stated the explosion would take all of them out at once.

Honestly I just see her body not being fully destroyed by their blast as a little Easter Egg that shouldn't be taken seriously. When people comparable/equal to 2B, are killed or torn to pieces by the explosion. It doesn't seem right to say that 2B should scale to such an attack. Especially when the Engels and other units are farther away from the blast than she was.

Many attacks are able to injure her and leave her body in the same damage state as that explosion did. The body of 2B recovered is the exact same body you leave upon dying via any means, I think that is the case.

 

[TheAngryOrange]

I'm not trying to prove they survived. They're definitely dead. But nuclear fire tears matter apart on an atomic level. She should be nothing but atoms. Yet somehow 2B's body is both intact and is in good enough condition you can salvage all your equipment from it. I just think it's worth noting whatever she's made of can resist a process that would rip your atoms apart and scatter your electrons.

And we can't really say what the status is of the YoRHa or the Engles from the blast. Once again, I'm not saying they're alive or that somewhere across the ocean got a forecast of living Engles raining from the sky. Everything from the situation to the descriptions of the situation points to them being deader than doornails. But we don't have anything relating to the status of the bodies. Taking someone out simply means kill. It doesn't mean atomize. We don't know if they are intact, in pieces, or disintegrated. But what we do have points to not disintegrated.

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[TheAngryOrange]

Or do you think something like this should be listed as a resistance rather than durability.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Yeah I'm not the man to ask for that, probably ask some staff or something as I don't know anything about nuclear fire or crap.

The status of the dead body is irrelevant, because the dead body's condition doesn't tell us anything. The dead body recovered by 2B is the same dead body you leave when you die in any way. Which is pure gameplay mechanics and shouldn't be used for anything. Since we have no idea if that is suppose to be true in this situation.

In reality the damage could be worse if done in a serious manner. If you aren't proclaiming for durability scaling, than we have no reason to debate against each other.

Also 9S's lost part of his own limbs from being hit by Engels and falling a great height. Guess that means all of that damage surpass the energy from a combined black box detonation?

 

[TheAngryOrange]

Yeah, looking at it, it definitely would be unrelated to durability. Cuz even Little Boy produced the same atomizing temperatures and it's barely Town Level. (Though on a side note you can't find 9S's body. You have to go back and grab 2B's items but 9S is given back everything from the get go). Hmm...perhaps their high durability is only related to thermal energy. Just thinking aloud on that last part.

So you think I should ask a staff or someone whether this is worth noting?

 

[FintanMajora]

Being close doesn't mean you scale to the full force of it. You can be like 2 meters away and you still wouldn't scale to the full yield

Even then, the scaling shouldn't be so drastically to bump it down below mountain, that's extremely silly. Even if we went by what you said, she should scale to at the absolute least 90% of the full Yield