2-C and 2-B Tier merge

[Pikaman]

I do not see how me not agreeing to cram together our hierarchical specifications to appease the fans of comparatively low-powered characters by giving them artificial boosts has anything to do with you accusing me of somehow suddenly diverging from my entire focus of building this community from the ground up for the last 8 years.

You’ve built this community from the ground up but boy do you seem intent on antagonising it. Accusing entire hordes of members of bad faith arguing to get artificial boosts on a policy change would land nearly any other member in the RVR

not compressing together tiers because of random personal preferences

Is that not what the 1001 border is though? A random personal preference?

No, you do not. This is the staff forum, and regular members should only very sporadically respond here a single time if they have genuinely useful information to share.

Regular members are allowed to comment on these types of threads with the permission of other staff, which I have gotten. and my comments have contributed to the debate, I’m not sure what else I must do

 

[Antvasima]

Ant, why do you pretend like you are the only staff member here? It would do you well if you weren't this stubborn 24/7.

Nobody else here unfortunately seems to have the combination of experience and interest to handle the edit-patrolling in the manner that I do yet.

Again Ant. Stop. We get it. Nobody's denying this. BUT YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY PERSON HERE WITH THAT KIND OF EXPERIENCE. You need to know when to just relax and let others of the same rank as you do it for you.

The other bureaucrats have very different focuses in their responsibilities, and are not able to be anywhere near as active. Also, I have been the most active member here for over 8.5 years now, so I trust my experiences in this regard.

Just the opposite actually. As of now we don't even allow CRTs of that magnitude to pass without the AP section properly describing the true potency of the feat and the number of feats involved. It's been an unspoken rule for quite a while now and it's worked out terrifically well.

To consistently list the exact number of affected universes in every skngle profile page? It seems like a far more sporadic feature to me.

Nope, just take a cue out of the pages of the verse that have it worded the best.

Well, I will give you that we might be able to come up with something workable in this regard.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

No, you do not. This is the staff forum, and regular members should only very sporadically respond here a single time if they have genuinely useful information to share.

So, in essence, even in spite of the OP of a thread granting express permission, you are also vetoing their granted permission to speak outside of "Genuinely Useful Information", which is a significantly subjective term? My apologies Ant, and I understand you are stressed and tired, but this seems a bit reaching into abuse of power territory. You also fail to respond to much beyond what two people have said- Which can also be attributed to your general tiredness, I understand, but it also proves to be inconsiderate and tunnel visioned.

Multiple people have brought up how this would not be a catastrophic change, and yet you still choose to use your power to crush it without even considering the consequences of using your power in such a way. I must remphasize, I understand that you are not at 100%, but I must also implore you, take into consideration the results that would come from all possible actions- Or at the very least, take the night to rest up your mind and body, and return to this thread refreshed when you can.

 

[Bobsican]

Got staff permission to post here

I'm just going to remind that tier 2 isn't a tier you can just slap to a new character on the site, as they require having a CRT beforehand for such high tiers (and so they require citing a link to it in the edit summary when publishing the respective pages), and so enforcing good standards to specify the number of universes involved for the purposes of their stats isn't too outside what staff are already customized to in terms of patrolling, especially for new pages once there's a rule for that.

 

[KLOL506]

Nobody else here unfortunately seems to have the combination of experience and interest to handle the edit-patrolling in the manner that I do yet.

So teach them? It's not like we're gonna be around here forever.

The other bureaucrats have very different focuses in their responsibilities, and are not able to be anywhere near as active. Also, I have been the most active member here for over 8.5 years now, so I trust my experiences in this regard.

That means you have an even more of a responsibility to appear the best you can be instead of constantly agonizing others over it.

Again Ant, no one is going to deny here just how much you have contributed to the wiki and not just its survival, it even thriving. But even you are just one man, you can only do so much on your own before your body gives in. Some times, it's not too bad to rely on others more often and let them handle your activities once in a while, even if they're not of the same rank as you are?

To consistently list the exact number of affected universes in every skngle profile page? It seems like a far more sporadic feature to me.

One we have already been doing for quite a while now, in case you haven't noticed.

Well, I will give you that we might be able to come up with something workable in this regard.

See, this is much more appreciable than before.

 

[Antvasima]

Can we like, not? Just don't make comments like this about people whenever you find yourself disagreeing with them. It paints a bad image of you as a whole.

If you keep giving me an extremely hard time for many hours late into the night, by not accepting what the bureaucrats have decided in an area that is within our area of responsibility, and outside of your own, and started off by being rude and making accusations yourself, and mess up my real life by doing so, what did you expect really?

I am usually trying to be as nice and helpful as I can manage, but I have my mental limitations.

I do not get paid for my more than double full time workload here, I am almost solely motivated by a sense of duty, as I do not benefit from this in any way whatsoever, I am stressed out by real world responsibilities and political events, and have heavy ADHD, so if people keep unreasonably and relentlessly demanding more and more and more from me on top of that in an extremely obnoxious manner, as you are currently doing, I will eventually try to say that enough is enough, want to end the pointless arguing, and state this is not going to be accepted no matter how much you harrass and pester me about it.

 

[Antvasima]

Fam, calm down. It's not the end of the world. It's just a fictional indexing site made for comparing fictional characters.

To me the accuracy and reliability of this place is something that I have invested considerably more than 30,000 hours of work building from the ground up for more than 8 years now, so I do not intend to let you or anybody else mess that up, even if you relentlessly pester me in the current manner.

Also, 8 staff members have agreed to this while you and DT have not, but that alone isn't the end-all, be-all for this thread. You also do not have the right to reject the evaluations of other staff who have just as much of a vote as you do, as if you do that would be pretty telling of your intentions right from the get go. Hopefully you can take the night off to cool down for a bit and then come back, yeah?

I will not have much time tomorrow, and will barely get any sleep before I have to go to an early meeting thanks to you, but the only staff members here who have a vote regarding major policy revisions such as this one are technically the bureaucrats and the administrators, and the bureaucrats have veto rights.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Antvasima, perhaps you should get some rest for now. Others will handle it here for now.

KLOL, I understand your stress too, and there are both sides. While I am not the biggest fan of Bureaucrats overruling the majority usually, it's important to note that things as major as a tiering system should have a mandatory decision in that our tiering system experts and authorities who were chosen due to having the best sense of judgement regarding the topics should be something that takes high priority. For verse specific topics, I agree that staff who outrank shouldn't overrule people far more knowledgeable on the verse, but this is for tiering systems. I still think we need more staff input or staff who responded earlier should maybe have a chance to rethink. AKM Sama is the last Bureaucrat who has yet to respond, and there are other admins such as Mr. Bambu who have yet to respond.

 

[Antvasima]

So, in essence, even in spite of the OP of a thread granting express permission, you are also vetoing their granted permission to speak outside of "Genuinely Useful Information", which is a significantly subjective term? My apologies Ant, and I understand you are stressed and tired, but this seems a bit reaching into abuse of power territory. You also fail to respond to much beyond what two people have said- Which can also be attributed to your general tiredness, I understand, but it also proves to be inconsiderate and tunnel visioned.

Multiple people have brought up how this would not be a catastrophic change, and yet you still choose to use your power to crush it without even considering the consequences of using your power in such a way. I must remphasize, I understand that you are not at 100%, but I must also implore you, take into consideration the results that would come from all possible actions- Or at the very least, take the night to rest up your mind and body, and return to this thread refreshed when you can.

Staff members strategically using regular members to tire out the opposition with increasing levels of spam is not acceptable. It is called the staff forum for a reason. Regular members do not normally have unrestricted access. This is standard policy, and not restricted to this thread.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Antvasima Goodnight. Stop responding to this thread as you mentioned you got a meeting. Take a rest as you should.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I understand that you are tired, but that is quite the big accusation against the staff members.

In any case, clearly we're getting nowhere, only making Ant more and more cranky and upset. Let's let him rest for the night.

 

[KLOL506]

To me the accuracy and reliability of this place is something that I have invested considerably more than 30,000 hours of work building from the ground up for more than 8 years now, so I do not intend to let you or anybody else mess that up, even if you relentlessly pester me in the current manner.

It was never my intent to pester you in this manner, and besides, you could have chosen to ignore my comments entirely to save yourself the effort.

I will not have much time tomorrow, and will barely get any sleep before I have to go to an early meeting thanks to you, but the only staff members here who have a vote regarding major policy revisions such as this one are technically the bureaucrats and the administrators, and the bureaucrats have veto rights.

And the other admins haven't responded yet.

Regardless, have a good night's sleep. You need the rest more than anyone else here. You've more than earned it, and you should treat yourself better for your contributions that you have made to the wiki.

 

[KLOL506]

Antvasima, perhaps you should get some rest for now. Others will handle it here for now.

KLOL, I understand your stress too, and there are both sides. While I am not the biggest fan of Bureaucrats overruling the majority usually, it's important to note that things as major as a tiering system should be decided and have mandatory that our tiering system experts and authorities who were chosen due to having the best sense of judgement regarding the topics should be something that takes high priority. For verse specific topics, I agree that staff who outrank shouldn't overrule people far more knowledgeable on the verse, but this is for tiering systems. I still think we need more staff input or staff who responded earlier should maybe have a chance to rethink. AKM Sama is the last Bureaucrat who has yet to respond, and there are other admins such as Mr. Bambu who have yet to respond.

None of this is what bothers me, but rather the accusations that Ant has thrown out on me with absolutely no basis to them.

Even I was hammering down that there are still other staff who have yet to respond to this, I even name-dropped Wokistan who was the most interested about this as far as I can see, that everyone else should give their opinion and that the bureaucrats cannot veto their votes willy nilly without good reason, and that this isn't reason enough to perform a veto like this.

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

Staff members strategically using regular members to tire out the opposition with increasing levels of spam is not acceptable. It is called the staff forum for a reason. Regular members do not normally have unrestricted access. This is standard policy, and not restricted to this thread.

I think that staff members that give regular members permission to discuss here do it not because they have intentions such as strategically using them for the purpose of tiring out the opposition, but because they want regular members to have at least a chance to discuss and make an impact in any relevant discussions. That's how I see it. Maybe you should have worded that a bit differently so that it doesn't sound accusatory.

Antvasima, perhaps you should get some rest for now. Others will handle it here for now.

KLOL, I understand your stress too, and there are both sides. While I am not the biggest fan of Bureaucrats overruling the majority usually, it's important to note that things as major as a tiering system should be decided and have mandatory that our tiering system experts and authorities who were chosen due to having the best sense of judgement regarding the topics should be something that takes high priority. For verse specific topics, I agree that staff who outrank shouldn't overrule people far more knowledgeable on the verse, but this is for tiering systems. I still think we need more staff input or staff who responded earlier should maybe have a chance to rethink. AKM Sama is the last Bureaucrat who has yet to respond, and there are other admins such as Mr. Bambu who have yet to respond.

This seems like the better option for now. I say that this thread should not be rushed, and we wait for more staff members' inputs, given that this is now more significant than what was previously thought.

The thread is also derailing.

 

[Antvasima]

So teach them? It's not like we're gonna be around here forever.

I would like to, but do not have sufficient available free time to do so. Dereck03 and maybe a few other content moderators have potential in this area though, but I doubt that they will be able to remain dedicated to this task every single day without vacation for many years, which is what is required.

That means you have an even more of a responsibility to appear the best you can be instead of constantly agonizing others over it.

I am not constantly agonising others. I am usually easily one of the absolutely most helpful and considerate staff members overall. However, when people relentlessly argue with me for very prolonged periods of time when I am already very tired and stressed out, and completely refuse to accept the final decisions of myself and the other bureaucrats, that eventually seriously gets on my nerves given my overall ADHD-enhanced stress levels.

Again Ant, no one is going to deny here just how much you have contributed to the wiki and not just its survival, it even thriving. But even you are just one man, you can only do so much on your own before your body gives in. Some times, it's not too bad to rely on others more often and let them handle your activities once in a while, even if they're not of the same rank as you are?

Some of the content moderators have done an increasingly good job in recent months, I will readily admit.

One we have already been doing for quite a while now, in case you haven't noticed.

In some pages, but far from all of them.

See, this is much more appreciable than before.

I still firmly oppose anything that makes out wiki less specific and organised than previously though.

 

[Antvasima]

It was never my intent to pester you in this manner, and besides, you could have chosen to ignore my comments entirely to save yourself the effort.

And the other admins haven't responded yet.

Regardless, have a good night's sleep. You need the rest more than anyone else here. You've more than earned it, and you should treat yourself better for your contributions that you have made to the wiki.

Okay then. Apology accepted, and I also apologise about getting increasingly annoyed corresponding to my decreasing available sleep time. Good night.

 

[KLOL506]

I would like to, but do not have sufficient available free time to do so. Dereck03 and maybe a few other content moderators have potential in this area though, but I doubt that they will be able to remain dedicated to this task every single day without vacation for many years, which is what is required.

I don't think we need years to pull this kind of thing off. Just life experience alone should help out considerably in this regard.

I am not constantly agonising others. I am usually easily one of the absolutely most helpful and considerate staff members overall. However, when people relentlessly argue with me for very prolonged periods of time when I am already very tired and stressed out, and completely refuse to accept the final decisions of myself and the other bureaucrats, that eventually seriously gets on my nerves given my overall ADHD-enhanced stress levels.

Usually when they argue against you it isn't out of bad faith but rather often due to genuine concerns for some of the wiki's policies and often at times for your own personal health. I am pretty sure that being the most helpful of all the staff members still doesn't make you immortal, and I get how much your mental health issues can drive you over the edge. I would know, I've been suffering from PTSD and constant paranoia due to certain events years ago, but even I know when to take breaks. Sometimes Ant, it's not too bad to admit that none of us are perfect, but to then refuse to shape up because of that fact alone is just not right. I am not the only staff to say that you should seriously prioritize your health over the wiki, as I fear it has become just as much of an unhealthy obsession for you as it has for other members in the past.

Some of the content moderators have done an increasingly good job in recent months, I will readily admit.

And that means you get to take more time off, Ant. Seriously, listen to them. They do care about you whether you like to admit it or not.

In some pages, but far from all of them.

Which is changing. Slowly but steadily and surely.

I still firmly oppose anything that makes out wiki less specific and organised than previously though.

It won't, I can assure you of this. We will be implementing stricter controls to go along with this to make doubly sure of that.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Don't mind either way, so pretty much neutral, though I like the current tier separations for aesthic reasons, even if it's arbitrary.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tbh I don't see the issue of an increased need for regulations if this were to be applied. We quite literally are requiring references on profiles, that pretty much solves this problem on its own

And if people aren't gonna add references, MAKE THEM

 

[KingTempest]

(Damn this was a long ass thread)

Alright. Now after reading through this entire thread, regardless if my vote matters or not atp, here's what I have to say.

First of all, even if this thread gets declined, enforcing the rule of listing the amount of universes destroyed is extremely useful and should be a requirement in my honest opinion.
Literally the only reason why I stay outside of tier 2 is because I can't even tell the difference between 2 characters who scale to 2 unis and 987 unis.

Now in the viewpoint of the thread I agree on the merges. 1001 is a ridiculously arbitrary number, and the view of those saying "it doesn't change much" is scary, since you do realize you're attempting to stagnate something that showcases arbitrary values (1001), when other threads that involve things using arbitrary numbers such as the upscaling and downscaling thread gap were turned hostile because of such arbitrary values, yet maintaining it now because "we're used to it" is absurd.

So add me for agree

 

[CloverDragon03]

Now in the viewpoint of the thread I agree on the merges. 1001 is a ridiculously arbitrary number, and the view of those saying "it doesn't change much" is scary, since you do realize you're attempting to stagnate something that showcases arbitrary values (1001), when other threads that involve things using arbitrary numbers such as the upscaling and downscaling thread gap were turned hostile because of such arbitrary values, yet maintaining it now because "we're used to it" is absurd.

Isn't this quite literally the appeal to tradition fallacy?

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah

 

[KLOL506]

Maybe I should leave the brunt of the discussion to you guys after all, you do carry the wiki forward

 

[CloverDragon03]

Maybe I should leave the brunt of the discussion to you guys after all, you do carry the wiki forward

Ey man you contribute heavily on your end, don't sell yourself short

Also if you're including me in that, I'm gonna have to disagree because I just kinda say shit and it somehow sticks

 

[Kflare63]

(I was given permission by Emirp to post here)
I have come to make a tier proposal making small tweaks to the OP.

My proposal is as follows:

2-C= the destruction of a singular universe
2-B= the destruction of more than one universe to any finite countable number
High 2-B= the destruction of any uncountable or innumerable amount of universes
2-A= the destruction of an infinite amount of universes

 

[Reiner04]

Tier 2C finite
Tier 2B adinfinitum (greater than any established finite amount but not infinite then?).

I also suugested nearly same thing in my very first post, and Qwasedf also has suggested it.

 

[Reiner04]

But aside from suggestion, my stand is same as of @Celestial_Pegasus . I don't mind either way.

 

[KLOL506]

(I was given permission by Emirp to post here)
I have come to make a tier proposal making small tweaks to the OP.

My proposal is as follows:

2-C= the destruction of a singular universe
2-B= the destruction of more than one universe to any finite countable number
High 2-B= the destruction of any uncountable or innumerable amount of universes
2-A= the destruction of an infinite amount of universes

High 2-B would literally fall under the same naming issues as "Multiverse level+" being of a supposedly lower rank than "High Multiverse level" and that "countless" on its own is too vague to judge reliably.

 

[Reiner04]

High 2-B would literally fall under the same naming issues as "Multiverse level+" being of a supposedly lower rank than "High Multiverse level" and that "countless" on its own is too vague to judge reliably.

(Just to clarify)
He seems to talk about MWI, where number of universes aren't countable in anyway but just keep on increasing adinfinitely, they are greater than finite in the sense they're trying to reach for infinite but yet aren't infinite.

 

[KLOL506]

(Just to clarify)
He seems to talk about MWI, where number of universes aren't countable in anyway but just keep on increasing adinfinitely, they are greater than finite in the sense they're trying to reach for infinite but yet aren't infinite.

It'd still fall under the Finite category TBF.

 

[Starter_Pack]

(I was given permission by Emirp to post here)
I have come to make a tier proposal making small tweaks to the OP.

My proposal is as follows:

2-C= the destruction of a singular universe
2-B= the destruction of more than one universe to any finite countable number
High 2-B= the destruction of any uncountable or innumerable amount of universes
2-A= the destruction of an infinite amount of universes

Why did I get this exact proposal from my brother when I told him about this?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I really don't mind the current system but that's because I'm use to it and have an understanding of it. However this doesn't mean I'm against the merge, I can understand the suggestion and I don't really have a counter argument so I'm ok with whatever.

 

[KLOL506]

Ey man you contribute heavily on your end, don't sell yourself short

I'm literally just a passer-by. I just steer people to the right direction, when I can.

Also if you're including me in that, I'm gonna have to disagree because I just kinda say shit and it somehow sticks

Hey, if it sticks, you're good staff. Never forget that.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm literally just a passer-by. I just steer people to the right direction, when I can.


Hey, if it sticks, you're good staff. Never forget that.

W staff friend

Why did I get this exact proposal from my brother when I told him about this?

Powerscaling sibling go brrrrrr

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well I should probably give my stand, as I have not previously.
Anyway the workload is not really a problem, it can be done gradually over a month or two, as I always say there is no rush no here owes anyone anything, it should be a hobby.
Then secondly, the merge brings little to no advantage to the wiki in my opinion.
Lastly, whether the merge happens or not, the requirement for adding number of destroyed or created universes should be made compulsory.
I guess what I am saying is, I don’t really mind either way for the merge, don’t see a point in it. but certainly see a point in making it compulsory to add the number of destroyed or created universes

Less I forget, no one has given me a valid reason for why there is a distinction between 1 and 2.

 

[KingTempest]

Well I should probably give my stand, as I have not previously.
Anyway the workload is not really a problem, it can be done gradually over a month or two, as I always say there is no rush no here owes anyone anything, it should be a hobby.

It can be done in 10 minutes

Then secondly, the merge brings little to no advantage to the wiki in my opinion.

It removes redundancy

Less I forget, no one has given me a valid reason for why there is a distinction between 1 and 2.

Singular and plural

 

[Reiner04]

no one has given me a valid reason for why there is a distinction between 1 and 2.

They are seprated by additional 5d axis and gap is unknown, more or less all of sub tiers of tier 2 are divided on the basis of additional dimensional gap btw them but for tier 2B 1001 has been chosen arbitrarily. But tbh, not going over this explanation is easier way to proceed and just treat it as fiction thing, like distroying more than one universe > distroying 1 Universe and so same for infinite universes. It's fiction.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't particularly care that the cutoff is arbitrary, so I disagree with working towards altering established systems that are working fine. People on this wiki are generally aware of what 2-C to 2-B implies, I see no reason to shake that up for no particular benefit.

Jot me down as a disagree.

 

[KingTempest]

@OP

No shade to KingPin but he's not a staff member of VSBW, so remove him from the votes

 

[PrinceofPein]

It removes redundancy

Not really tbh, it does nothing much and there are way worse redundancy in the pages.
My point is that it adds nothing to the accuracy.
What does is actually naming the number of universe destroyed or created

Singular and plural

Not a valid distinction, putting one feat of equal size in a whole tier, while putting uncountable in the next one cramping them into a single tier.
A better distinction would be.
1
2-1000
Thousands (1000-999,999)
Millions
Billions
Trillions
Quadrillion(although I don’t see anyverse that has this)
Then countless or uncountable numbers
Then infinite
Then we can have them as
Low 2C
2-C
High 2-C
Low 2-B
2-B
High 2-B
2-A

They are seprated by additional 5d axis

In fiction 99% of the time, it’s just void or emptiness that separates universes, and unless they are stated to be housed by a space that holds ontological difference that should be the default assumption, it will be addressed in the tier 2 thread tho.