2-C and 2-B Tier merge

[Antvasima]

So just admit that you don't really care about accuracy here but more so about personal preference. Not that hard.

That is not correct. I care greatly about distinctions, organisation, and accuracy, which is why I want more tiers.

I am just pointing out that you claiming to have some kind of superior logical high ground with preferring 2 universes as a lower border instead of 1001 doesn't really make any sense.

I said "Stave off", not "get rid of permanently". I know what DT has elaborated on in the past with this.

Okay, but your point that we can entirely avoid arbitrary selections is not accurate.

Okay and? Countless tiers exist that have a gigantic gap between its lower and higher ends, and they've worked out perfectly fine.

You are arguing to merge together the number 2 with almost infinity, which is a massive contrast with tiers 10 to 3, and even tiers Low 1-C, 1-C, and High 1-C acting as buffers before Tier 1-B starts, and I would much prefer more separation, and as such specifications and distinction, rather than less of it.

Unless they're from peer-reviewed scientific journals or books written by reputable scientists I don't see the point, and even then it'd still fall under the "any higher finite number" argument because nothing indicates that a fiction has to follow said rules in the first place.

And which peer-reviewed journals are so fond of the number 2 exactly? As I keep trying to get you to understand, we have to show some degree of flexibility for the sake of easily overviewed distinctions and organisation here.

Given that those tiers are even bigger monumental ****-ups than Tier 2 ever would be, yet 1-B inherently seems to be doing well on its own without multiple side tiers within it, I don't see why 2-B would be any different.

How are our Hyperverse and Outerverse tiers "****-ups" exactly? I think that we have managed to improvise to create a quite thorough system in general, but for practical reasons, once we start to enter Aleph numbers and above, we cannot use finite distinctions anymore. However, that is not remotely the case yet for universal clusters.

You want distinctions, ordering information and being specific in ways that are easily comprehensible and overviewed? Here you go: Singular, Plural Finite and Plural Infinite. Now tell me this makes less sense than whatever convoluted mess you came up with dividing Plural Finite with so many arbitrary distinctions that had absolutely no basis to them. You say we should strive towards accuracy, but it seems you yourself have sacrificed those ideals in favor of personal preference. So at the end of the day, you need to choose which one you need to go with here.

Plural finite is not nearly sufficiently precise for lower-order numbers. It unnecessarily lumps together characters of too diverging power levels for no good reason other than your own subjective preferences.

I can understand the paranoia, but once again, this isn't about making verses look more powerful than they already are. That was never the point. How many universes they destroy will remain unaffected by this. Any VS match they have will also remain unchanged and the only way they get removed is if the character either got a boost to the number of universes destroyed or gets hax upgrades. We don't get to make them more powerful without this anyway.

As I mentioned above, it is extremely unlikely that the specific number of universes involved will anywhere near clnsistently be mentioned in all of the several hundred character profile pages that would be affected by this change, which would create a confusing mess in general, both for our visitors and members who like versus threads.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It seems extremely unlikely that our members would consistently insert exact number of universes counts for several hundred character profile pages

I mean, why not adjust it like I said. Just make 2-C any countable number of universes and 2-B any uncountable number.

The only tier that would notably change is 2-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Then we should make this a mandatory rule before anything else.

We already make this distinction for Tier 1 characters as mandated to do so, so why the hell this would not be applicable for Tier 2 is well beyond me. I'd argue it's even more destructive to keep the number of universes involved in such feats unknown from the get-go.

According to all my long and thorough experiences with managing this community, that would never be followed by most of our members, who would be unaware of the standard, much less how to structure it properly.

 

[ImmortalDread]

And what will be the limit for 2-C @Qawsedf234 ?

 

[KLOL506]

According to all my long and thorough experiences with managing this community, that would never be followed by most of our members, who would be unaware of the standard, much less how to structure it properly.

And yet we do it for Tier 1? If you don't want to do it, just say it.

"Being never followed by all our members" is poor work ethics. MAKE THEM FOLLOW IT.

Also how hard would it be to structure just how many universes are involved in a feat of this caliber? It wouldn't be any harder than listing the exact number like we do for most Tier 1 feats. You're worrying too much on this regard.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And what will be the limit for 2-C

A countable number. Or any hard stated amount of universes. 2-B would be for countless.

A thousand universes, a million or a Trevtillion would all be 2-C. 2-B would be for countless universes or a countable infinite and 2-A for a true infinite.

Or something along those lines.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, why not adjust it like I said. Just make 2-C any countable number of universes and 2-B any uncountable number.

The only tier that would notably change is 2-B.

The problem is that the uncountable concept is awfully vague. Does it mean what a regular person can count to without running out of saliva? Something limited to a specific time interval? What they could achieve during a human lifetime if they unrealistically counted nonstop since birth to old age? The highest number that a computer can do math with? Which computer exactly? Et cetera.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The problem is that the uncountable concept is awfully vague.

I'm talking about mathematical uncountable numbers Ant, not a number a human can actually count to. Uncountable would be like every decision making a new universes. Where the number is essentially infinite but not a true infinity because the result will always be an ever increasing finite number

 

[Antvasima]

First of all, no. You, DT and Medeus disagreeing does not mean that this thread has been rejected. Eight of the staff here have agreed, you really want to overrule all of us and set that precedent?

Second of all, they better insert the number of universes if they want to qualify for the tiers in the first place. And like KLOL said, if it’s that big of an issue, then we should just make a rule about it.

This is a major wiki policy issue change, which bureaicrats have veto rights for. It is part of our fundamental job responsibilities. To act as safety gauge buffers against potentially destructive policy changes.

Also, not all staff members have evaluation rights for content revision threads in the first place, only bureaucrats, administrators, and thread moderators, with evaluation weight in that hierarchical order. This is a part of our fundamental standards. Different staff members have different areas of responsibility.

 

[LordTracer]

"Being never followed by all our members" is poor work ethics. MAKE THEM FOLLOW IT.

THIS. A rule is put in place because you expect people to follow it. If they don’t follow it, make them.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm talking about mathematical uncountable numbers Ant, not a number a human can actually count to. Uncountable would be like every decision making a new universes. Where the number is essentially infinite but not a true infinity because the result will always be an ever increasing finite number

Okay. Noted. However, not all mentions of the term within fiction will automatically follow that definition.

 

[Qawsedf234]

However, not all mentions of the term within fiction will automatically follow that definition.

Sure, but that's the point of CRTs. To determine a questionable rating. Making 2-B an uncountable numbers and 2-A some infinite one will also better match our Tier 1 section with 1-B, High 1-B and Low 1-A.

As I mentioned the only tier under this proposal that would notably change is 2-B. So we wouldn't need to sift through 1200 profiles to change stuff.

 

[Pikaman]

This is a major wiki policy issue change, which bureaicrats have veto rights for. It is part of our fundamental job respobsibilities. To act as safety gauge buffers against potentially destructive policy changes.

That is true but erasing an arbitrary line in our tiering system would not be VSBW 9/11, it is a slight waste of time and minor annoyance at best, even if someone is against the idea

It isn’t a veto-worthy crisis moment or anything like that, and frankly it paints a poor image of the wiki if 2 bureaucrats can show up and deny a very widely supported thread because one thinks it’s not worth the recourses and another thinks it makes Goku look too strong, basically

 

[ImmortalDread]

A countable number. Or any hard stated amount of universes. 2-B would be for countless.

But this will mislead too many issues, such as which requirements are for “countless/uncountable universes”?
I doubt any characters qualify as such, unless you want to take vague statements as effectual.

Also, it is worth noting that both of them are finite numbers. Furthermore, this barely solved the issue. It just makes it questionable.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But this will mislead too many issues, such as which requirements are for “countless/uncountable universes”?

Then... we just define the requirements.

I doubt any characters qualify as such

This isn't an argument in my view. Barely anyone qualifies for High 1-A or 11-C but we don't get rid of those ratings. Just because the pool is small doesn't mean the pool wouldn't exist.

unless you want to take vague statements as effectual.

Plenty of profiles for 2-B have what I said as a justification. Which is why I suggested it in the first place.

 

[KLOL506]

That is not correct. I care greatly about distinctions, organisation, and accuracy, which is why I want more tiers.

Then what's with the idea of subverting the expectations of certain franchises' supporters?

I am just pointing out that you claiming to have some kind of superior logical high ground with preferring 2 universes as a lower border instead of 1001 doesn't really make any sense.

Already explained countless times why.

Okay, but your point that we can entirely avoid arbitrary selections is not accurate.

But we can try to reduce it as much as possible, can't we? So why aren't we where it's actually feasible?

You are arguing to merge together the number 2 with almost infinity, which is a massive contrast with tiers 10 to 3

Nope, even 3-A spirals out to near infinite joule value while still remaining within the 3-D spectrum.

Same case with 2-B.

and even tiers Low 1-C, 1-C, and High 1-C acting as buffers before Tier 1-B starts,

Those tiers literally operate on the basis of higher existential superiority, which is wildly different from the operating mechanisms of Tier 2 and below. They are not the same.

and I would much prefer more separation, and as such specifications and distinction, rather than less of it.

Then do with with something to support your claims, not with ambiguous descriptions.

And which peer-reviewed journals are so fond of the number 2 exactly?

Anything that involves the main bodies of astronomical intellegence within our world.

As I keep trying to get you to understand, we have to show some degree of flexibility for the sake of easily overviewed distinctions and organisation here.

Convolution, redundancy and stat-padding is not what I'd call flexibility at all. PERIOD. Nor is it based on any sensible distinctions and I'd argue it is even more disorganised.

How are our Hyperverse and Outerverse tiers "****-ups" exactly?

The mere fact that it's involved in the whole "Existential Superiority" mess that most people still have a hard time understanding and keep making threads about constantly.

I think that we have managed to improvise to create a quite thorough system in general, but for practical reasons, once we start to enter Aleph numbers and above, we cannot use finite distinctions anymore.

And that's called a logical distinction.

However, that is not remotely the case yet for universal clusters.

So what is it really that prevents these arbitrary distinctions for Tier 2 from being removed?

Plural finite is not nearly sufficiently precise for lower-order numbers. It unnecessarily lumps together characters of too diverging power levels for no good reason other than your own subjective preferences.

Pray tell, how is getting rid of redundancy and arbitrary clutter subjective?

Also you do realize that the whole argument of "diverging power levels" still remains even with our current distinction of 2-B, yeah? You're still of the mindset that the number of universes being destroyed won't be laid out, even in practice this is not true, many of the Tier 2-C and 2-B profiles increasingly have the number of universes affected directly written down into the Attack Potency Page like it actually should. No different than directly linking a calculation for a character's tier.

As I mentioned above, it is extremely unlikely that the specific number of universes involved will anywhere near clnsistently be mentioned in all of the several hundred character profile pages that would be affected by this change, which would create a confusing mess in general, both for our visitors and members who like versus threads.

This is unfortunately, not only very wrong factually, it's also a dangerous mindset to have.

There are many profiles on this site within the Tier 2 spectrum that accurately describe the number of universes being affected by the feats.

Us not being able to consistently mention it is kind of our fault and we should be working to fix that, not exacerbate it further.

It would not be confusing at all to our new visitors, in fact, it would be massively beneficial overall and would significantly reduce the number of junk threads that regularly pop up asking how many universes X character can destroy and whatnot.

 

[Antvasima]

And yet we do it for Tier 1? If you don't want to do it, just say it.

We do use such distinctions for tier 1-C, but cannot continue forever when very few characters use specific degrees of infknity beyond 11 dimensions, due to string theory, especially when we reach infinite degrees of infinity.

"Being never followed by all our members" is poor work ethics. MAKE THEM FOLLOW IT.

Good luck with singlehandedly keeping track of and investigating the exact specifics of every single revision applied in our wiki every single day, year in and year out, and expecting me to handle it on top of my usual workload, when I already usually have a 70 to 85 hour work week.

Also how hard would it be to structure just how many universes are involved in a feat of this caliber? It wouldn't be any harder than listing the exact number like we do for most Tier 1 feats. You're worrying too much on this regard.

Again, I have very extensive experiences with how our community fundamentally works, and fitting in the number of universes into every single affected character profile page is simultaneously not realistic to make all of our members understand, and would likely look rather awkward to fit into our current page structures.

 

[KLOL506]

Then... we just define the requirements.

You can't because countless by definition doesn't work that well on its own. It's too vague. You need context.

Plenty of profiles for 2-B have what I said as a justification. Which is why I suggested it in the first place.

Would you be kind enough to mention which profiles exactly so that they can be evaluated one-by-one to see if they have the context, multiversal structure and other statements to justify as such?

 

[Antvasima]

Sure, but that's the point of CRTs. To determine a questionable rating. Making 2-B an uncountable numbers and 2-A some infinite one will also better match our Tier 1 section with 1-B, High 1-B and Low 1-A.

As I mentioned the only tier under this proposal that would notably change is 2-B. So we wouldn't need to sift through 1200 profiles to change stuff.

Well, your suggestion is less bad that what KLOL506 is relentlessly giving me a hard time about, but it would still falsely claim that any fiction that uses the word uncountable automatically qualifies, even though it is such an unspecific term that they could mean very different things.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

That is true but erasing an arbitrary line in our tiering system would not be VSBW 9/11, it is a slight waste of time and minor annoyance at best, even if someone is against the idea

It isn’t a veto-worthy crisis moment or anything like that, and frankly it paints a poor image of the wiki if 2 bureaucrats can show up and deny a very widely supported thread because one thinks it’s not worth the recourses and another thinks it makes Goku look too strong, basically

While he could have worded it better, he's frankly right. This would not be the end of the world for VSBW if this passes. People who are given power to overrule a decision are given that power so that they can overturn something with catastrophic implications, not because they simply have a Personal preference towards the other side. If you overrule this thread, which has the support of such a number of Staff and even some Non-Staff alike, the ramifications could prove much worse than any confusion someone may somehow experience from the tiers being changed. I understand that you do not agree with the thread, Ant, but you should be careful and think of the possible ramifications of throwing your power as a Bureaucrat at it so recklessly.

Also, this is not intended to come off as threatening, I should stress- Rather, this is simply my concern of what could unfold as a result of two or three people using their power to stomp out a handful of people who's changes would not be as disastrous for the wiki as you believe they would. With proper communication and time, people can be shown how to understand such a change. If you desire to not mislead, then be sure to clearly clarify and state things, and people will understand the tier's.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Then... we just define the requirements.

Which “requirements”? It is likely case-case. Most likely when they use it, later on, they specify it. It is obscure.

This isn't an argument in my view. Barely anyone qualifies for High 1-A or 11-C but we don't get rid of those ratings. Just because the pool is small doesn't mean the pool wouldn't exist.

But I don't see any significance for it.

Plenty of profiles for 2-B have what I said as a justification. Which is why I suggested it in the first place.

May I see any?

 

[Antvasima]

That is true but erasing an arbitrary line in our tiering system would not be VSBW 9/11, it is a slight waste of time and minor annoyance at best, even if someone is against the idea

It isn’t a veto-worthy crisis moment or anything like that, and frankly it paints a poor image of the wiki if 2 bureaucrats can show up and deny a very widely supported thread because one thinks it’s not worth the recourses and another thinks it makes Goku look too strong, basically

It is a very major policy change, yes, and regular members should not repeatedly post in a staff thread about such an important issue in the first place, only post a single time if they have something genuinely important to say, and that's it. We get too much unmanageable spam otherwise.

 

[Pikaman]

Well, your suggestion is less bad that what KLOL506 is relentlessly giving me a hard time about

What is the point of snide comments like this? Seriously. I get you’re severely overworked but you’ve been getting more and more snappy as of late

 

[Qawsedf234]

Would you be kind enough to mention which profiles exactly so that they can be evaluated one-by-one to see if they have the context, multiversal structure and other statements to justify as such?

If you can give me a day or so I can do so. I'm going to bed soon-ish.

You can't because countless by definition doesn't work that well on its own. It's too vague. You need context.

Which is why CRTs exists KLOL. You need context for any Tier 2 or 1 rating, that doesn't disqualify them from existing.

 

[KLOL506]

We do use such distinctions for tier 1-C, but cannot continue forever when very few characters use specific degrees of infknity beyond 11 dimensions, due to string theory, especially when we reach infinite degrees of infinity.

And you're basically proving my point. Part of it still has valid reasons to have distinctions up until a certain point.

Good luck with singlehandedly keeping track of and investigating the exact specifics of every single revision applied in our wiki every single day, year in and year out, and expecting me to handle it on top of my usual workload, when I already usually have a 70 to 85 hour work week.

Ant, why do you pretend like you are the only staff member here? It would do you well if you weren't this stubborn 24/7.

Again, I have very extensive experiences with how our community fundamentally works,

Again Ant. Stop. We get it. Nobody's denying this. BUT YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY PERSON HERE WITH THAT KIND OF EXPERIENCE. You need to know when to just relax and let others of the same rank as you do it for you.

and fitting in the number of universes into every single affected character profile page is simultaneously not realistic to make all of our members understand,

Just the opposite actually. As of now we don't even allow CRTs of that magnitude to pass without the AP section properly describing the true potency of the feat and the number of feats involved. It's been an unspoken rule for quite a while now and it's worked out terrifically well.

and would likely look rather awkward to fit into our current page structures.

Nope, just take a cue out of the pages of the verse that have it worded the best.

 

[Pikaman]

regular members should not repeatedly post in a staff thread about such an important issue in the first place, only post a single time if they have something genuinely important to say, and that's it.

I have permission to speak on this thread, and I am exerting that permission where I see arguments I disagree with and am able to formulate a response to. I’m doing nothing wrong

 

[KLOL506]

Which is why CRTs exists KLOL. You need context for any Tier 2 or 1 rating, that doesn't disqualify them from existing.

I think you missed my point.

The point was, even with this merger you'd still need CRTs to justify why one would use "countless", and if it states a specific number of universes involved you use that in that case.

 

[KLOL506]

I have permission to speak on this thread, and I am exerting that permission where I see arguments I disagree with and am able to formulate a response to. I’m doing nothing wrong

I have granted him permission, but this will be the final time anyone else not a staff will be allowed to contribute to.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I think you missed my point.

The point was, even with this merger you'd still need CRTs to justify why one would use "countless", and if it states a specific number of universes involved you use that in that case.

Yap. This may lead to conflicts, on why the “countless statements” has less value and accuracy than “10000 universes” if there will be a tier for it.
People may argue and say “we take higher feat” and this will mess up the whole case-case tradition.

 

[Pikaman]

I have granted him permission, but this will be the final time anyone else not a staff will be allowed to contribute to.

Fair enough. To clarify, does that mean “No more people will receive permission to comment from hence forth” or “Everyone’s permission to comment has been revoked”?

 

[KLOL506]

Well, your suggestion is less bad that what KLOL506 is relentlessly giving me a hard time about,

Can we like, not? Just don't make comments like this about people whenever you find yourself disagreeing with them. It paints a bad image of you as a whole.

but it would still falsely claim that any fiction that uses the word uncountable automatically qualifies, even though it is such an unspecific term that they could mean very different things.

I refer to the word: CONTEXT

 

[Qawsedf234]

but it would still falsely claim that any fiction that uses the word uncountable automatically qualifies,

Oh, well alright then.

Well I'll just go back to my original stance then. The current system works and I'm fine with it; but if it changes I'm also fine with it. The line we've drawn seems arbitrary so it being removed isn't something I'd fight tooth and nail over.

The only major issue I would see with the change is just stricter upkeep with defining the amount of universes someone scales to. But that's also not some extreme effort thing imo.

 

[KLOL506]

Fair enough. To clarify, does that mean “No more people will receive permission to comment from hence forth” or “Everyone’s permission to comment has been revoked”?

Former. I will no longer allow anyone else other than the parties properly involved to contribute if they are not staff.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Former. I will no longer allow anyone else other than the parties properly involved to contribute if they are not staff.

So this means that those of us who already got permission before this statement can contribute then, correct? Dully Noted.

 

[KLOL506]

The only major issue I would see with the chabge is just stricter upkeep with defining the amount of universes someone scales to.

Honestly I am more than willing to advocate for the stricter upkeep of defining how many universes the character scales to. Too many a time I have seen threads erupt into chaos because people had a hard time figuring out how many universes the people scaled to via their feats.

 

[KLOL506]

So this means that those of us who already got permission before this statement can contribute then, correct? Dully Noted.

Correct.

 

[Antvasima]

Then what's with the idea of subverting the expectations of certain franchises' supporters?

I do not see how me not agreeing to cram together our hierarchical specifications to appease the fans of comparatively low-powered characters by giving them artificial boosts has anything to do with you accusing me of somehow suddenly diverging from my entire focus of building this community from the ground up for the last 8 years.

Already explained countless times why.

And I completely disagree with your rationalisations.

But we can try to reduce it as much as possible, can't we? So why aren't we where it's actually feasible?

No. Our main focus is organised hierarchical distinctions, not compressing together tiers because of random personal preferences.

Anyway, it is almost 3 AM where I live, and I have to go to sleep now, so I do not have the time to continue to respond to your relentlessly argumentative unreasonability in this thread.

I also apologise for being blunt, but you have no jurisdiction over this particular area in the wiki, so it is not remotely up to you to decide, and this destructive suggestion has already been rejected. I am just getting increasingly tired and annoyed over that you continue to relentlessly pester me here by forcing me to waste time that I do not have available, which messes up both my sleep schedule and real world social life.

Goodnight.

 

[Antvasima]

What is the point of snide comments like this? Seriously. I get you’re severely overworked but you’ve been getting more and more snappy as of late

It depends on just how tired and stressed out I am at the time. I do not only have my responsibilities here to deal with anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

I have permission to speak on this thread, and I am exerting that permission where I see arguments I disagree with and am able to formulate a response to. I’m doing nothing wrong

No, you do not. This is the staff forum, and regular members should only very sporadically respond here a single time if they have genuinely useful information to share.

 

[KLOL506]

I do not see how me not agreeing to cram together our hierarchical specifications to appease the fans of comparatively low-powered characters by giving them artificial boosts has anything to do with you accusing me of somehow suddenly diverging from my entire focus of building this community from the ground up for the last 8 years.

Again with the accusations?

And I completely disagree with your rationalisations.

Cool then. We agree to disagree.

No. Our main focus is organised hierarchical distinctions, not compressing together tiers because of random personal preferences.

Ant, it'd be really preferable if you stopped with the "random personal preferences" accusations because frankly this is tiresome at this point.

Anyway, it is almost 3 AM where I live, and I have to go to sleep now, so I do not have the time to continue to respond to your relentlessly argumentative unreasonability in this thread.

I also apologise for being blunt, but you have no jurisdiction over this particular area in the wiki, so it is not remotely up to you to decide, and this destructive suggestion has already been rejected. I am just getting increasingly tired and annoyed over that you continue to relentlessly pester me here by forcing me to waste time that I do not have available, which messes up both my sleep schedule and real world social life.

Goodnight.

Fam, calm down. It's not the end of the world. It's just a fictional indexing site made for comparing fictional characters.

Also, 8 staff members have agreed to this while you and DT have not, but that alone isn't the end-all, be-all for this thread. You also do not have the right to reject the evaluations of other staff who have just as much of a vote as you do, as if you do that would be pretty telling of your intentions right from the get go. Hopefully you can take the night off to cool down for a bit and then come back, yeah?