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2-A Wizard101?
- Thread starter Zenkaibattery1
- Start date
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GLHF22, I think you got confused: different timelines are different universes. Time Travel tends to be handled differently in fictions. In the case of Tensei, it is still the case timelines- universes because Chloe O'Bell did time travel and this yielded different future events for early Rimuru Tempest. In any case, I think this discussion should be dropped because focussing on another verse will cause derailing and might be to have another discussion or Content Revision Thread for this topic.GLHF22 said:
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GLHF22, I think you got confused: different timelines are different universes. Time Travel tends to be handled differently in fictions. In the case of Tensei, it is still the case timelines- universes because Chloe O'Bell did time travel and this yielded different future events for early Rimuru Tempest. In any case, I think this discussion should be dropped because focussing on another verse will cause derailing and might be to have another discussion or Content Revision Thread for this topic.
Okay ill PM you, i know that but there is something on LN i Will explain
Okay ill PM you, i know that but there is something on LN i Will explain
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So I know this is a massive ******* necro, but this thread seemed to just kinda...fall apart? Earlier, Matthew stated that the reasons used for 2-B are incorrect, but instead of really doing anything about that, the verse just...wasn't upgraded even further.
Then, more evidence was posted for alternate timelines, but I don't think anyone ever really brought up the fact that in said evidence, the Spiral, which is currently scaled to being a 2-B construct containing these timelines, was within said timelines. So it's more likely talking about either a possible future, or something not contained within the Spiral.
I can't really understand why the verse is still 2-B and the evidence for such a thing does not seem to have been properly provided, but it seemed much more helpful to post here than create a new thread.
Then, more evidence was posted for alternate timelines, but I don't think anyone ever really brought up the fact that in said evidence, the Spiral, which is currently scaled to being a 2-B construct containing these timelines, was within said timelines. So it's more likely talking about either a possible future, or something not contained within the Spiral.
I can't really understand why the verse is still 2-B and the evidence for such a thing does not seem to have been properly provided, but it seemed much more helpful to post here than create a new thread.
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It's kinda wank that's left out of check. Ever out of the wiki also had issue with it.
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"So it's more likely talking about either a possible future, or something not contained within the Spiral."Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Whether it's contained inside the Spiral or not is pretty irrelevant to be honest. The Spiral isn't the game's only setting - it's the main setting. Earth is outside the Spiral. The Arcanum is outside the Spiral. Zigazag is outside the Spiral. Even so, the Spiral is still regarded as being infinite in size even by the one who created it.
There's no reason to think that Bartleby was lying or exaggerating his description of the Spiral seeing as how he literally has no reason to even want to do so. He only says these things to you because he's teaching you how to travel between the worlds of the Spiral.
I don't see why it's so hard to accept the notion of there being alternate 'timelines' in the game when WoG literally says that each world has their own flow of time. That alone could imply that each world has their own special 'timeline'.
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@Azzy
What?
Even the current lead developer and writer of the game states there are seperate timelines currently existing in the verse, and even implies timeline missions in the future. He even states Raven and Spider can destroy the universe and all the timelines within it. https://www.wizard101.com/forum/empyrea/greetings-wizards-8ad6a42667365b2d01675195fa0b5ecc?page=2
"How many timelines are there in the spiral?"
Lead writer: "That's a really good question. Given the presence of two potential time meddlers (that we know of!), there could be quite a few."
Lead writer: "The timelines question is very intriguing. I'd love to get back to that sometime, or perhaps even have some event characters return."
"Can Raven and Spider destroy the universe and all timelines"
Lead writer: "Yes" their mere existence even keeps existence safe as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpkzCdoqipE&t=327s
"Either of these entities can unravel existence if they wanted too"
The mysterious voice we hear also says we are from another world and time all together when we travel back to the past https://imgur.com/a/nl8QPYE
An Arcanum professor states there are different worlds and dimensions within existence https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/544380520834924566/594317617582440534/600px-28Quest29_Forging_A_Legend_Dialogue_7.png
All of these are within the Spiral
And even if you don't want to include that, there is still the reverie. A dimension where everyone's dream is its own dimension with stars and galaxies in the background.
These are all current statements. The "debunked" stuff was all from when the game was first starting anyway.
And as Ben said, even if these were "outside the spiral" (Which WoG debunks), the gods can destroy all of existence.
Edit: Also, I don't understand how the professors statement is wrong. In that quest, he was looking at the past, and refered to that specific past as that timeline. We even travel back to it back to when Cyrus wasn't interested in magic and Sylvia was alive (WAY before the main story even begins). He even mentions the DS academy is taking over the Spiral (The name of the universe); The DS army is taking over the universe. However, when we look at our own timeline, the universe is safe.
What?
Even the current lead developer and writer of the game states there are seperate timelines currently existing in the verse, and even implies timeline missions in the future. He even states Raven and Spider can destroy the universe and all the timelines within it. https://www.wizard101.com/forum/empyrea/greetings-wizards-8ad6a42667365b2d01675195fa0b5ecc?page=2
"How many timelines are there in the spiral?"
Lead writer: "That's a really good question. Given the presence of two potential time meddlers (that we know of!), there could be quite a few."
Lead writer: "The timelines question is very intriguing. I'd love to get back to that sometime, or perhaps even have some event characters return."
"Can Raven and Spider destroy the universe and all timelines"
Lead writer: "Yes" their mere existence even keeps existence safe as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpkzCdoqipE&t=327s
"Either of these entities can unravel existence if they wanted too"
The mysterious voice we hear also says we are from another world and time all together when we travel back to the past https://imgur.com/a/nl8QPYE
An Arcanum professor states there are different worlds and dimensions within existence https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/544380520834924566/594317617582440534/600px-28Quest29_Forging_A_Legend_Dialogue_7.png
All of these are within the Spiral
And even if you don't want to include that, there is still the reverie. A dimension where everyone's dream is its own dimension with stars and galaxies in the background.
These are all current statements. The "debunked" stuff was all from when the game was first starting anyway.
And as Ben said, even if these were "outside the spiral" (Which WoG debunks), the gods can destroy all of existence.
Edit: Also, I don't understand how the professors statement is wrong. In that quest, he was looking at the past, and refered to that specific past as that timeline. We even travel back to it back to when Cyrus wasn't interested in magic and Sylvia was alive (WAY before the main story even begins). He even mentions the DS academy is taking over the Spiral (The name of the universe); The DS army is taking over the universe. However, when we look at our own timeline, the universe is safe.
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@Zenkai
In regards to destroying all of existence, the writer says, "Yes, or at least if they couldn't destroy all of existence, they could wipe away all the parts that mortals live in." (emphasis mine.)
In regards to timelines, they say, "That's a really good question. Given the presence of two potential time meddlers (that we know of!), there could be quite a few." But you left out the very next sentence, which was, "Again, I'm content not to speculate until I need an answer."
In the very same comment, they say, "I'm more than content not to define the size of the Spiral. Right now, it's as big as we need it to be."
If much of this is coming from forum messages, we have a serious problem. The writer specifically seems to not want to commit or place some kind of creative limit on these things, and very few answers are 100% definitive. Not to mention that almost all of these seem to be in response to one person who is specifically fishing for power levels, which if I remember correctly, led to serious problems with Godzilla and Rick & Morty WoG statements, in the past.
What info from the game itself is being used to support these ratings? Because at best, what has been shown justifies 2-C.
In regards to destroying all of existence, the writer says, "Yes, or at least if they couldn't destroy all of existence, they could wipe away all the parts that mortals live in." (emphasis mine.)
In regards to timelines, they say, "That's a really good question. Given the presence of two potential time meddlers (that we know of!), there could be quite a few." But you left out the very next sentence, which was, "Again, I'm content not to speculate until I need an answer."
In the very same comment, they say, "I'm more than content not to define the size of the Spiral. Right now, it's as big as we need it to be."
If much of this is coming from forum messages, we have a serious problem. The writer specifically seems to not want to commit or place some kind of creative limit on these things, and very few answers are 100% definitive. Not to mention that almost all of these seem to be in response to one person who is specifically fishing for power levels, which if I remember correctly, led to serious problems with Godzilla and Rick & Morty WoG statements, in the past.
What info from the game itself is being used to support these ratings? Because at best, what has been shown justifies 2-C.
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- Thread starter
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@azzy
That was in refrence to the other cosmic beings existing. Since the other two exist, the third wouldnt be able to destroy all of existence. He even says the other two existing is what keeps existence safe. You do know the place the mortals live is the known universe and other dimensions/timelines right? He even says in the YouTube interview that "either of these entities can unravel existence if they felt like it"
Not only that, IN GAME it is stated "If The Chaos Heart is removed from its bonds in Empryea, it will unravel the very fabric of existence" check The Chaos Heart profile. The chaos heart belongs to one of the three cosmic beings by the way. We even reset existence as the divine paraodx. Check The Player (Wizard101) profile.
Him not having a definite answer is irrelevant. The fact is he mentioned the existence of other timelines. Your main argument at first was that the professor was talking about "within the timeline" or whatever, when the fact of that quest is he was talking about a past we were going to travel too. In that past, the universe was being taken over, whereas in our current timeline, we defeated the army and the universe is at peace. The whole purpose of me sending that was evidence to parallel worlds existing in the verse.
The arcanum professor says there are other worlds and dimensions
The size of the Spiral in game is a universe. Bartleby says it himself, Medulla says it, and there are literal galaxies in the background.
Bartleby even says there ars countless worlds.
Using the professor looking into the past and saying its a timeline, we know that different pasts = timeline. The grains in the sands of time are a moment in the spirals past. According to Raven herself, these grains are endless. Raven is also the narrator of the game.
And you seemingly ignored a lot of what I said. Especially the revire.
Melloris dream alone was a dimension filled with galaxies and stars. Its a world where all dreams are accessible by anyone and interconnected. All beings dreams all together should be 2-B even without the timelines
That was in refrence to the other cosmic beings existing. Since the other two exist, the third wouldnt be able to destroy all of existence. He even says the other two existing is what keeps existence safe. You do know the place the mortals live is the known universe and other dimensions/timelines right? He even says in the YouTube interview that "either of these entities can unravel existence if they felt like it"
Not only that, IN GAME it is stated "If The Chaos Heart is removed from its bonds in Empryea, it will unravel the very fabric of existence" check The Chaos Heart profile. The chaos heart belongs to one of the three cosmic beings by the way. We even reset existence as the divine paraodx. Check The Player (Wizard101) profile.
Him not having a definite answer is irrelevant. The fact is he mentioned the existence of other timelines. Your main argument at first was that the professor was talking about "within the timeline" or whatever, when the fact of that quest is he was talking about a past we were going to travel too. In that past, the universe was being taken over, whereas in our current timeline, we defeated the army and the universe is at peace. The whole purpose of me sending that was evidence to parallel worlds existing in the verse.
The arcanum professor says there are other worlds and dimensions
The size of the Spiral in game is a universe. Bartleby says it himself, Medulla says it, and there are literal galaxies in the background.
Bartleby even says there ars countless worlds.
Using the professor looking into the past and saying its a timeline, we know that different pasts = timeline. The grains in the sands of time are a moment in the spirals past. According to Raven herself, these grains are endless. Raven is also the narrator of the game.
And you seemingly ignored a lot of what I said. Especially the revire.
Melloris dream alone was a dimension filled with galaxies and stars. Its a world where all dreams are accessible by anyone and interconnected. All beings dreams all together should be 2-B even without the timelines
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I see my points were ignored. Fine, I'll just add more then.
"In regards to destroying all of existence, the writer says, "Yes, or at least if they couldn't destroy all of existence, they could wipe away all the parts that mortals live in." (emphasis mine.)"
The key words here are "existence" and "mortal". The game doesn't describe the Spiral as being all of existence , it's just the name of the universe that the Player happens to live in.
So, why does it matter that he used the word "mortal"? Because "mortal" applies to almost everyone in the franchise. Even Mellori, the Bat and the Player are regarded as mortals , despite the fact that the Player is Bartleby's Scion, Mellori was "pulled out of Raven's heart" and the Bat was "born from Spider's dream". The only characters who can be confirmed as not being mortal are Raven, Spider, Bartleby, the Creator and the three Titans.
"But you left out the very next sentence, which was, "Again, I'm content not to speculate until I need an answer.""
The WoG who said that wasn't the one who wrote for the quest that the feat was created from. He didn't even work on the game in that time. The fact is that the Professor refers to an alternate timeline, and seeing as how he already knew what was in said alternate timeline, it's safe to say that they exist side-by-side. How else would he have known about it?
"What info from the game itself is being used to support these ratings? Because at best, what has been shown justifies 2-C."
'2-B: Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to any higher finite number of universal 4-dimensional space-time continuums.'
Adding on to the alternate dimensions which we've already listed, there's also the Djinni dimension, the Shadow Realm, and the Astral Plane . There's also the Reverie and the alternate timelines which we've covered already.
Even if we don't use the alternate timelines, I believe the Reverie alone should be enough for it to count as being 2-B . The Reverie itself is only the gateway between dreams, which is supported by the use of Portals, but it itself is surrounded by various astral bodies including a black hole , which implies it's the size of a universe. So, why should dreams count as being universal in size too? It's simple: We use Mellori's dream to scale. As Zenkai said, her dream is shown to have several galaxies and stars in the background.
But how do we know that they're actual stars, and not just part of the scenery of her dream? Because Mellori dreamt up several different worlds based off of her memories for us to move around in, and they existed independently from her presence (we know that because of the fact that she keeps leaving those worlds before us and nothing breaks apart).
There's nothing to suggest that this would be limited only to Mellori's dream. The reason the Player's dream was visually different was because of his Shadow magic. Not to mention the fact that Spider trapped him inside a nightmare, which distorted things even further.
"In regards to destroying all of existence, the writer says, "Yes, or at least if they couldn't destroy all of existence, they could wipe away all the parts that mortals live in." (emphasis mine.)"
The key words here are "existence" and "mortal". The game doesn't describe the Spiral as being all of existence , it's just the name of the universe that the Player happens to live in.
So, why does it matter that he used the word "mortal"? Because "mortal" applies to almost everyone in the franchise. Even Mellori, the Bat and the Player are regarded as mortals , despite the fact that the Player is Bartleby's Scion, Mellori was "pulled out of Raven's heart" and the Bat was "born from Spider's dream". The only characters who can be confirmed as not being mortal are Raven, Spider, Bartleby, the Creator and the three Titans.
"But you left out the very next sentence, which was, "Again, I'm content not to speculate until I need an answer.""
The WoG who said that wasn't the one who wrote for the quest that the feat was created from. He didn't even work on the game in that time. The fact is that the Professor refers to an alternate timeline, and seeing as how he already knew what was in said alternate timeline, it's safe to say that they exist side-by-side. How else would he have known about it?
"What info from the game itself is being used to support these ratings? Because at best, what has been shown justifies 2-C."
'2-B: Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to any higher finite number of universal 4-dimensional space-time continuums.'
Adding on to the alternate dimensions which we've already listed, there's also the Djinni dimension, the Shadow Realm, and the Astral Plane . There's also the Reverie and the alternate timelines which we've covered already.
Even if we don't use the alternate timelines, I believe the Reverie alone should be enough for it to count as being 2-B . The Reverie itself is only the gateway between dreams, which is supported by the use of Portals, but it itself is surrounded by various astral bodies including a black hole , which implies it's the size of a universe. So, why should dreams count as being universal in size too? It's simple: We use Mellori's dream to scale. As Zenkai said, her dream is shown to have several galaxies and stars in the background.
But how do we know that they're actual stars, and not just part of the scenery of her dream? Because Mellori dreamt up several different worlds based off of her memories for us to move around in, and they existed independently from her presence (we know that because of the fact that she keeps leaving those worlds before us and nothing breaks apart).
There's nothing to suggest that this would be limited only to Mellori's dream. The reason the Player's dream was visually different was because of his Shadow magic. Not to mention the fact that Spider trapped him inside a nightmare, which distorted things even further.
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