2-A Precog and Fate hax revision

[PrinceofPein]

Hopefully, this will be simple,
1. we have quite a number of character who have 4D fate or precognition based on the fact that they can see infinite futures.
The problem here is that, to qualify for 2-A you need to affect infinite universe/space-time continuums, while seeing all possible or infinite futures is vague and we do not know if the different futures they see, they see the entire timeline for each one, or rather we know they do not see the entire timeline/timelines, hence this is not 2-A, since they are seeing a short period of a timeline branched out infinitely and just few moments of the branches are seen and not the entire timeline that branches out so this would not qualify for 2-A fate/precognition range. 2-A range should be treated as 2-A AP, able to cover infinite space-time continuums.
Destruction of moments, even infinite moments of a universe is High 3-A, so seeing infinite moments certainly is not 2-A by the same standards.

2. Similarly, if anyone can see the future of an entire universe or timeline, till the end or see the past of a universe till time 0, they should have low 2-C precognition.

if someone can see the future of infinite timelines, they obviously have 2-A range, I think I need to clarify that better in the OP.
The scenario I am referring to is a situation where there is a single universe and character A can precog to see infinite possible futures/actions that are about to happen.
In Scenario 1: Character A can see just moments into time for those possible futures
In Scenario 2: Character B can see all these said moments but he has the ability to take one or all of them and see where they will lead to at the end of the timeline or to put it better 'see it infinitely'

Scenario 1 is not tier 2, as he is just seeing moments and aside the facts that these timelines do not exists they are just possible events that may happen a second and a day from now and it is practically the equivalence of a High 3-A AP range
Scenario 2 is tier 2, can be low 2-C or 2-A depending on the capability of the character.

Tldr: The requirements for having 2-A precog should be seeing a baseline 2-A structure, and the minimum for a low 2-C precog should be seeing a baseline low 2-C structure, i.e. people who see variables that may happen moments in the future for an action, they should not qualify for such range

Agree: @Qawsedf234, @DarkDragonMedeus, @LordGriffin1000, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Antvasima, @Planck69
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[Deceived3596]

Following, currently disagree, will explain why later.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I really agree with this, I don't even know why Yhwach has this in 2-A scale.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I really agree with this, I don't even know why Yhwach has this in 2-A scale.

this was not done cause of Yhwach but I have had an idea for this since last year due to a MGK revision, just clearing it out now

 

[Deceived3596]

I really agree with this, I don't even know why Yhwach has this in 2-A scale.

What does Yhwach specifically have to deal with a general thread about Fate Manipulation and Precognition?

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

makes sense I think.

 

[Ped2018]

I really agree with this, I don't even know why Yhwach has this in 2-A scale.

Pretty sure Yhwach does WAY more than just seeing the future, so he would still maintain his rating

 

[PrinceofPein]

Please take Yhwach and verse specific stuffs out of this thread, it is derailing

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

this was not done cause of Yhwach but I have had an idea for this since last year due to a MGK revision, just clearing it out now

I see, I think that's good.

 

[KingogKings777]

Disagree.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I really agree with this, I don't even know why Yhwach has this in 2-A scale.

You can read the threads that got the abilities accepted, you know.

As for the general proposal, I guess it depends on the specifics of the ability and should be specified as such on the profiles. So I agree with the overall intent of the thread.

Cuz indeed, there's a difference seeing a single timeline from an infinite amount, than seeing an infinite amount at the same time. Both have "2-A" range, but only the second one affects the totality of the range.

Edit: Should be noted, both instances are 4-D anyways if they interact with the timeline. The difference is the scale.

 

[Planck69]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, to have 4-dimensional range and potency for Precognition and Fate Manipulation, you need to be able to affect the entirety of a timeline's future for as long as it goes on, and for 2-A range specifically you need to the whole eternities of an infinite number of timelines?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, to have 4-dimensional range and potency for Precognition and Fate Manipulation, you need to be able to affect the entirety of a timeline's future for as long as it goes on, and for 2-A range specifically you need to the whole eternities of an infinite number of timelines?

That's what I'm understanding as well.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I did always think this was a bit odd, but consider me neutral for now.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

You can read the threads that got the abilities accepted, you know.

As for the general proposal, I guess it depends on the specifics of the ability and should be specified as such on the profiles. So I agree with the overall intent of the thread.

Cuz indeed, there's a difference seeing a single timeline from an infinite amount, than seeing an infinite amount at the same time. Both have "2-A" range, but only the second one affects the totality of the range.

Edit: Should be noted, both instances are 4-D anyways if they interact with the timeline. The difference is the scale.

I see, seems to make a lot of sense, thanks for explaining.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Disagree with correlating AP to range of hax.

 

[PrinceofPein]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, to have 4-dimensional range and potency for Precognition and Fate Manipulation, you need to be able to affect the entirety of a timeline's future for as long as it goes on, and for 2-A range specifically you need to the whole eternities of an infinite number of timelines?

Yes, spot on

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Disagree with correlating AP to range of hax.

It's just a simplification. "Universal+ Range" = low 2-C, etc etc.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Disagree with correlating AP to range of hax.

Because AP and range are entirely different things. In my opinion I think it's using same logic as "this attack/ability that can go past an infinite amount of universes doesn't actually have 2-A range because it's not going through all moments of time.". Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[Aachintya31]

What will this basically change on the profiles ?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

What will this basically change on the profiles ?

If they don't show the ability to affect the totality of a 2-A structure, then their range will be slightly downgraded (moreso, clarified what it's actually affecting).

And of course, we won't default to put multiversal+ range automatically.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You don't need to affect anything. Being able to see infinite futures is enough. Refer to range standards.

 

[Arkenis]

This seems simple. Agree for now

Edit: Immortal does bring up a good point.

Even in the 2-A sections it says:
Multiversal+: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within an infinite amount of 4-dimensional space-time continuums at the same time.

So there's no need to effect it, or cover the entire space-time

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

You don't need to affect anything. Being able to see infinite futures is enough. Refer to range standards.

Read the thread. This is for abilities that affect the 4-D structure in some way. You can have 2-A range, yet not affect the totality of it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Because AP and range are entirely different things. In my opinion I think it's using same logic as "this attack/ability that can go past an infinite amount of universes doesn't actually have 2-A range because it's not going through all moments of time.". Correct me if I'm wrong though.

3-A is the destruction of a universal 3-D sized space
High 3-A is the destruction of an infinite universe or infinite universes.
low 2-C is the destruction of a universe at all points in time, i.e. uncountable infinite 3-D space
2-A is the destruction of infinite timelines or space-time continuums
All these are range plus the power needed to perform such feat

Range is a measurement that refers to how far that the attacks or abilities of a certain character, weapon, or otherwise, can efficiently reach on their/its own.

So you can not have 2-A range if you cannot affect 2-A structures with your abiities.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am against equating range as potency

 

[PrinceofPein]

I am against equating range as potency

please read the thread properly
I have not equated range as potency

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Hopefully, this will be simple,
1. we have quite a number of character who have 4D fate or precognition based on the fact that they can see infinite futures.
The problem here is that, to qualify for 2-A you need to affect infinite universe/space-time continuums, while seeing all possible or infinite futures is vague and we do not know if the different futures they see, they see it till the end of infinite time for each one, or rather we know they do not see it till the end of infinite time hence this is not 2-A, since they are seeing a short period of a timeline branched out infinitely and just few moments of the branches are seen and not the entire timeline that branches out so this would not qualify for 2-A fate/precognition range. 2-A range should be treated as 2-A AP, able to cover infinite space-time continuums.
Destruction of moments, even infinite moments of a universe is High 3-A, so seeing infinite moments certainly is not 2-A by the same standards.

2. Similarly, if anyone can see the future of an entire universe or timeline, till the end or see the past of a universe till time 0, they should have low 2-C precognition.

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree:

Disagree, the length of time does not matter, even a single point in time has infinite branches

 

[ImmortalDread]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, to have 4-dimensional range and potency for Precognition and Fate Manipulation, you need to be able to affect the entirety of a timeline's future for as long as it goes on, and for 2-A range specifically you need to the whole eternities of an infinite number of timelines?

No, you are misunderstanding it. Range is mostly dependent on AP, but it is nowhere a rule that you need to effect anything to gain the said range. This is literally now eliminating the definition of "smurf". Her "theory" needs to be supported by fiction logic because as far as I can tell, she did not even present a single grounds or fictional instance

I am disagreeing

2-A range should be treated as 2-A AP, able to cover infinite space-time continuums.

please read the thread properly
I have not equated range as potency

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I am against equating range as potency

Not potency, but application.

If when viewing the infinite multiverse, you can only pick and choose one of the possibilities, you should not be treated as deciding every possibility (because again, you are only picking one between the infinite amount).

Edit: In application, this would be 2-A awareness, but low 2-C "potency" (they are both 4-D anyways, it's just noting the specifics)

 

[Aachintya31]

Saying Infinite Futures means seeing infinite moments of future in time is wrong.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Not potency, but application.

If when viewing the infinite multiverse, you can only pick and choose one of the possibilities, you should not be treated as deciding every possibility (because again, you are only picking one between the infinite amount).

Viewing infinite futures or timelines is the definition of 2-A range

 

[PrinceofPein]

I am disagreeing

the minimum coverage for baseline 2-A Ap should be the minimum requirement for 2-A range too, it is as simple as that.\
And please if anyone wants to disagree provide valid arguments for doing so

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Not potency, but application.

If when viewing the infinite multiverse, you can only pick and choose one of the possibilities, you should not be treated as deciding every possibility (because again, you are only picking one between the infinite amount).

Viewing infinite multiverse = 2-A range
Also what sense would it make to pick every possibility instead of the most favorable one

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

the minimum coverage for baseline 2-A Ap should be the minimum requirement for 2-A range too, it is as simple as that.\
And please if anyone wants to disagree provide valid arguments for doing so

range does not equal ap

 

[ImmortalDread]

the minimum coverage for baseline 2-A Ap should be the minimum requirement for 2-A range too, it is as simple as that.\
And please if anyone wants to disagree provide valid arguments for doing so

AP gives range, but range is not necessarily dependent on AP

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Viewing infinite multiverse = 2-A range
Also what sense would it make to pick every possibility instead of the most favorable one

Because if you change every possibility to be the one you want, it negates certain abilities and/or resistances.

This now enters into even more specifics that should indeed be taken in consideration. This is my reason for agreeing with the proposal.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

AP gives range, but range is not necessarily dependent on AP

its more like the opposite, range gives ap for pretty much every anything above tier 3

 

[PrinceofPein]

range does not equal ap

Please stop derailing

AP gives range, but range is not necessarily dependent on AP

Provide valid arguments, it is like saying we should give planetary range cause someone can affect a city on a planet.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Viewing infinite futures or timelines is the definition of 2-A range

Sure. But your ability to affect each timeline is limited to one. That's not 2-A range for the ability that's interacting with the structure. Two different abilities, two different ranges.