2-A Mooncell Question

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If Alaya is the one responsible for culling up an infinite amount of timelines including past timelines, where she didn't even exist, then i think it's safe to call Alaya a 2-A Force according to VSB standards (not going into higher D stuff). Therefore anyone superior to Alaya should be at least 2-A too

I come here to just check on a few chats and what I see is a blatant inability to even engage what I say. This is the kind of shit that has made me stop caring.

You don't acknowledge what I said about why infinite timelines are bullshit. You don't even realize the basic fact that for "Alaya" (and jesus **** am I getting tired correcting you that that ain't Alaya, that's the ******* Human Order) to cull infinite timelines, if there were infinite timelines, then there would be no timelines and all humans just disappear. This hasn't obviously happened, so logically what you said has never happened and makes no sense.

Alaya is Low 1-C iirc.

It shouldn't really be, but eh... maybe if that CRT I have in mind does ever really pan out before I am dead. Unlikely but hey, is not 0% :V

 

[Regidian]

There are a lot of other blatantly missed idiosyncrasies in the event which I also missed because I hadn't seen it, but your point is terrible. What the actual hell does it matter what character A or B does when talking about C, and C tells you that something isn't ******* possible, and we get blatantly shown it isn't ******* possible, and the entire cosmology of C which we have seen at work is the way it is because it isn't ******* possible?

Obviously, we ignore it because high tiers are more fun, but I'd hope you wouldn't mind me venting some of my frustration from irl matters here.

And now, I disappear again. Peace I guess.

Because C (system solar containing all timeline) character tell to be limited on energy and that we have being A, B that exist in C who are already bigger than the supposed limited thing and posses more energy than it? (+ We have many thing with the infinity energy/limitless energy will be weird they have more energy than the dimmension they exist)

As far as i go the thing with system solar limited energy seem pretty recton, fgo go with an other reason for the existence of the quantum time lock

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Because C (system solar containing all timeline) character tell to be limited on energy and that we have being A, B that exist in C who are already bigger than the supposed limited thing and posses lore energy than it?

Because who the **** cares about A or B if it ain't relevant to C? "Oh damn, Olympic runners are so fast! So why are you so damn slow!?" That's literally your argument, assuming some homogeneity of some kind (which again, let's not even tackle the actual context of Kama, since the assertion that she has infinite energy is... pfft).

(And where the **** we were blatant show it isn't ******* possibility, we have like 20k mention of infinite possibilities/energy in fgo and even in fate extra it's mention just after)

Extella's whole ******* plot is Paracelsus trying to abuse Quantum Timelocks to make the coming of Velber inevitable, Goetia's whole plan is to unbuckle those timelocks to burn human history for energy, and the Lostbelts are the worlds that get culled because they diverge too much and are a waste of energy. Oh wow, the cosmology explained in Extella, what a surprise.

But hey, am sure saying infinite possibilities will fix that... even though the very explanation that says infinite timelines aren't possible also mentions infinite possibilities. Or the other one I quoted that says infinite possibilities exist, but not infinite timelines. Because, you know, time was compared to a tree that grows new branches, then cuts branches of, then grows new branches. Which... would be impossible if all possible branches already existed. but hey man, am sure that's just a retcon, because infinite gets said so many times wooooooow.

(which fgo doesn't even mention, now the thing are pruned because diverged too much from human history)

Umm...

But once a World arrives at such a state, it can no longer be counted as "a World comparable to the others" (他と同じ世界, hoka to onaji sekai?). If the Foundation of a World (世界の基盤, Sekai no Kiban?) has deviated, it becomes that which is known as an Otherworld (別世界, Betsu-Sekai?, lit. "distinct reality").

You mean that thing we already got told about in Extella? You aren't a baby, or I would hope you are not, because why would I assume Nasuverse would treat you like a baby without object permanence? Now why would the Human Order, which is all about human survival, spend it's limited energy... on a world with no humans, or where humans are ******? But I guess things get retconned just because they aren't mentioned. Yeah, that's how that works.

(+ We have many time mention of infinite/praticaly infinity energy produced by character which mean that they charavter would produce more energy than the "system solar" who countain their timeline,)

So let me understand... by your logic, a perpetual motion machine that can infinitely make energy, but it's only 9-A or 8-B levels of energy every second, could fuel all human energy needs forever. It is, after all, producing "practically" infinite energy - in the long term that is, sort of.

Since you fail to even make an example, I decided to just tackle how horrid that logic is on its own. But hey, I can make one of my own!

[The wizards who have reached the moon will compete with one another, and the last one standing will be summoned to the Moon Cell Core and granted the right to use it. That’s the Holy Grail – an omnipotent computer containing a power source equal to the sun.]

Gotta looooove all that infinite energy.

But hey, let me instead take a page out of your book and use your own logic!

"in the manner that a heroic spirit absent a spiritual core cannot persist as an existence"
"so too a god absent a divine core cannot persist in existence"
europa: "indeed, lord zeus is no longer upon the Surface"
"i fear that that lord .. chaos ..."
"by the will of lord zeus has he taken to manifestation as to proceed with the preordained plan"
"but it's wrong."
"lord zeus desired as to live on behalf of the culture of this world"
"the deity chaos, however, bears no special love of the earth"
"to that lord, the utmost priority would be the maintenance of the fleet"
"in other words, he likely intends to harvest the resources extant as of the surface of this planet"
"thereon, he would again embark upon a voyage across the sea of stars"
holmes: "the primordial god, chaos"
"as of the mythology of grecia, he was both the source of the gods, and become as the source of all the ten thousand existences upon the Surface"
"but his true form is as a vast eye -- that gazes upon this planet from a crevice in the cosmos"
"to regress the earth to its primordial state, that it might yet again return to the sea of stars!"
synth: "citizens and civilization are both as unnecessary"
"sapience and psyche are both as unnecessary"
"flourishing and death are all as unnecessary"
"the chaos as is the beginning, activation confirmed"
"all manner of elements determined as unnecessary"
"emergency announcement"
"the deity chaos manifests"
"forcible resource aggregation initiated"
"unto the resources of the planetary surface, primordial restoration is enacted"
"per the dictates of the interstellar emigration treaty"
"37% of the volume of this unregistered planet will be commandeered"
"sapient organisms of the planetary surface should immediately evacuate"

The "Primordial Deity" Chaos, treated as superior to Zeus and, in Holmes own eyes, an existence against which even Goetia could mayhaps do nothing, is harvesting Earth as spiritrons for the sake of being able to continue its journey.

I could have used Goetia needing a 3000 year-old plan to gather enough energy for his plan from an external source.

I could have used the likes of Godjuna requiring months, if not years, to remake the world until he had the assistance of the Fantasy Tree's energy.

But I am gonna assume this is just, a perfectly worthy enough sampling of characters at the very top of the scaling chain being readily boosted, or requiring objectively non-infinite sources of energy to do shit.

So either the limited energy in system solar is a thing that was recton (not like it's mentionned only one time)

Have you thought of the possibility that maybe... you are just wrong and misunderstood what you read? Maybe? Perhaps?

Meh, I'll let you decide.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Stuff

Please remain polite.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Because who the **** cares about A or B if it ain't relevant to C? "Oh damn, Olympic runners are so fast! So why are you so damn slow!?" That's literally your argument, assuming some homogeneity of some kind (which again, let's not even tackle the actual context of Kama, since the assertion that she has infinite energy is... pfft).

Extella's whole ******* plot is Paracelsus trying to abuse Quantum Timelocks to make the coming of Velber inevitable, Goetia's whole plan is to unbuckle those timelocks to burn human history for energy, and the Lostbelts are the worlds that get culled because they diverge too much and are a waste of energy. Oh wow, the cosmology explained in Extella, what a surprise.

But hey, am sure saying infinite possibilities will fix that... even though the very explanation that says infinite timelines aren't possible also mentions infinite possibilities. Or the other one I quoted that says infinite possibilities exist, but not infinite timelines. Because, you know, time was compared to a tree that grows new branches, then cuts branches of, then grows new branches. Which... would be impossible if all possible branches already existed. but hey man, am sure that's just a retcon, because infinite gets said so many times wooooooow.

Umm...

You mean that thing we already got told about in Extella? You aren't a baby, or I would hope you are not, because why would I assume Nasuverse would treat you like a baby without object permanence? Now why would the Human Order, which is all about human survival, spend it's limited energy... on a world with no humans, or where humans are ******? But I guess things get retconned just because they aren't mentioned. Yeah, that's how that works.

So let me understand... by your logic, a perpetual motion machine that can infinitely make energy, but it's only 9-A or 8-B levels of energy every second, could fuel all human energy needs forever. It is, after all, producing "practically" infinite energy - in the long term that is, sort of.

Since you fail to even make an example, I decided to just tackle how horrid that logic is on its own. But hey, I can make one of my own!

Gotta looooove all that infinite energy.

But hey, let me instead take a page out of your book and use your own logic!


The "Primordial Deity" Chaos, treated as superior to Zeus and, in Holmes own eyes, an existence against which even Goetia could mayhaps do nothing, is harvesting Earth as spiritrons for the sake of being able to continue its journey.

I could have used Goetia needing a 3000 year-old plan to gather enough energy for his plan from an external source.

I could have used the likes of Godjuna requiring months, if not years, to remake the world until he had the assistance of the Fantasy Tree's energy.

But I am gonna assume this is just, a perfectly worthy enough sampling of characters at the very top of the scaling chain being readily boosted, or requiring objectively non-infinite sources of energy to do shit.

Have you thought of the possibility that maybe... you are just wrong and misunderstood what you read? Maybe? Perhaps?

Meh, I'll let you decide.

Hey my man's. I know times are tough and I completely get that. But I don't wanna see you get reported.. you should pull away for a bit and take a breather.. nssuverse isn't going anywhere or changing any time soon unfortunately

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Please remain polite.

Yeh yeh, I know.

Have classes anyway, so yeah, washing my hands out of this.

 

[PrinceofPein]

This thread is fun, but if you make a CRt and it makes sense why not it will not get passed, in this wiki i have learnt two things dont mess with bleach fans or fate fans

 

[Delta333]

Yeah you should make a CRT about it,maybe it's really hard to be accepted because this is fate but it's still better than being reported here

 

[Chasekilleen]

TBH with minasan, Moon Cell's 2A has always been something I always wanted to downgrade due to the sheer misinformation misunderstood by English readers.
By this might take a long time till I make a revision thread.

 

[Hasty12345]

TBH with minasan, Moon Cell's 2A has always been something I always wanted to downgrade due to the sheer misinformation misunderstood by English readers.
By this might take a long time till I make a revision thread.

Mooncell is currently like 8D, you'd first have to downgrade the "uncountably infinite superiority" between dimensions in Nasuverse.

 

[Delta333]

tbh there is no scan that prove the R-F difference extends to any higher dimension that's above Zelretch,which means 6-D and 8-D should not have R-F difference

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Imagine complaining on an unrelated thread instead of going to try and counter the actual CRT

 

[Chasekilleen]

Imagine complaining on an unrelated thread instead of going to try and counter the actual CRT

Uhm are you talking to me or are you talking about someone else primarily?

 

[Regidian]

tbh there is no scan that prove the R-F difference extends to any higher dimension that's above Zelretch,which means 6-D and 8-D should not have R-F difference

Moon cell and BB is the primary feat that Crimson used for R F difference not Zelretch

 

[Delta333]

Moon cell and BB is the primary feat that Crimson used for R F difference not Zelretch

Well same thing because no proof show that higher dimension that's above Mooncell,BB and Zelretch have R-F difference but anyways I don't have any plan on downgrading the verse so continuing about it here is pointless

 

[PsychoWarper]

TBH with minasan, Moon Cell's 2A has always been something I always wanted to downgrade due to the sheer misinformation misunderstood by English readers.
By this might take a long time till I make a revision thread.

Mooncell isnt even 2-A anymore.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Anyway shouldnt this be closed due to 2-A not being the tier anymore? Or will it be kept open due to the “Infinite Possibilities” discussion?

 

[Hasty12345]

Well same thing because no proof show that higher dimension that's above Mooncell,BB and Zelretch have R-F difference but anyways I don't have any plan on downgrading the verse so continuing about it here is pointless

I will be making a CRT to address Nasuverse at some point

 

[Delta333]

I will be making a CRT to address Nasuverse at some point

Okay,good luck with your CRT

 

[LehenDuo]

This thread is fun, but if you make a CRt and it makes sense why not it will not get passed, in this wiki i have learnt two things dont mess with bleach fans or fate fans

If CRT A makes sense nd CRT B makes sense, buit A and B contradict themselves, even if in the smallest of details, your theory iss bad.

 

[LehenDuo]

It is just colloquial speak. Is much simpler to simply explain it as "possibilities", because that isn't even wrong. All adjacent worlds are possibilities, but not all possibilities are adjacent worlds. But to a normal person that can't perceive any of this, it might as well be the same. Notice the moment possibility and adjacent worlds are treated as the same, is in here,

If you have the time to think about a very ''strange'' e seemingly nidepedent idea about this specific point, I believe it's the very opposite of colloquialism, but a ''semi-direct reference'' to the (mostly bizarre as ****) Cosmology/Cosmogony of the Nasuverse

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Ever think about how literally even the original visual novel has a blatant 2-A statement

 

[Tripleaccel555]

And yet they get reconned by extella and FGO.

 

[LehenDuo]

Ever think about how literally even the original visual novel has a blatant 2-A statement

Now, that depends a lot actually.
Especially how you precisely define some terms in dimensionality - and on specifc lore characteristics.

Now... If I had to defend ONE and ONE only for THE NASUVERSE, it would be Tier 0 - Boundless..
The problem is the VERSE being one dimension is very different from the dimensions that are actually experienced by someone ''living'' in such space. If even Ryougi Shiki exists as a ''person'' in the same univere as us, mere humans, does it really matter? As far as ''the possibility exists, all universes could be Tier 0, but some reason X or Y any phenomena couldn'r reachh/needed to exist iin at least X dimesnions.

Dealing with the idea of Multiverses, each one being a different tree to be considered a separate multiverse, for example, would make make the problem answeredable only by Nasu.
The fact people completely ignore the ''works''/ideas that generated each World-lore and accepts ''standard idea X we have today about questions that are at best ''werid'' in their formulation'' doesn't help.

Having ''rules'' help, but when the very foundation of such rules is obviously of ''Scienfic/Common Sense chosen because Rules > No Rules'', the dealing with ideas with somehow differ from them are weird to deal with, and probably generate so much dissonance it's hard to argiue with one another - and when they do (differ in definitions/concepts), it's always in a way that makes no sense at all when you first read the phrase without the definition of each term expanded -

To give and example of one concept we look at and think it's weird - Something that doesn't not exist in all the dimensionss of the verse. Something that existed only in a temporal coordinate mas LACKS any other type of dimensionality. The POINT, in THEORY, is a unidimensional, mas we even though we have the capacity to express the concept of unidimension, we lack the sensitive capacity to ''experience'' it non-verbally/mentally. The concept of reality/fiction we accept so readily if it's in a ''lower dimension'' but can't accept if it's ''higher'' - and to add to that, the very ''sense'' of directionality in a specific order / and in some ways thed necessity of each only existing as a variable of a single type - in part modern and derived, again, from the capacity to express somethign mentally/with the intellect - is another thiing ''very easy to be confused by'' thing in any type. This is one of the cases, actually - the CURSE OF DIMENSIONALITY. In 3 seconds you can understand why it's relevant and why the fact the MOON CELL is ''a reality that exists INSIDE another one'' and that requires to follwo rules X, Y and Z about information production - it's not incorrect to say the Moon Cell is a DIMENSION of the word it exists in... a spatially DEFINED but TIME limited zone, Can we call it a Additional Layer of Texture already?

TOO LONG, DIDN'T READ - Talking about Dimensions can be very complicated and the use of specific words / specific social-culture and in the case here, lore dependen PRE-ACCEPTED/UNCONSCIOUS rules/etc can make saying 3D is 3D VERY HARD cause the TRUE answer is ''it depends'', and to make clear all defining points ism't easy sometimes.

And yet they get reconned by extella and FGO

Quotes proving the contradictions and not badly done translations.
The fundamentals of magecraft and magic are always described in a different way - that I would agree you can almost say each new Nasuverse ''product'' is ''a mini-retcon, if necessarty to descrivbe X as I want to''

 

[Regidian]

And yet they get reconned by extella and FGO.

Not really by fgo or they would not talk about being with "limitless" energy.

I mean we have many example of some contradiction in many fate just need to see extella, extella talk about the existence of adjacent world and parrallele world, the two have not the same definition.

Adjacent world=world that have divergence with the other and so make them adjacent.


Parralle world= world with no divergence with the other and so make them Parralle.

But in their material of extella they litteraly interchange the two every time. This much that you don't even know anymore if they retcon their own thing.

 

[LehenDuo]

Not really by fgo or they would not talk about being with "limitless" energy.

I mean we have many example of some contradiction in many fate just need to see extella, extella talk about the existence of adjacent world and parrallele world, the two have not the same definition.

Adjacent world=world that have divergence with the other and so make them adjacent.

Remember the parte about ''a definite future being boring"? Adkacent World é o que permite, pela criação de branches, the change of directionality of said timeline. Also called the prayer of Alaya or the last wish of Çatalhöyük.

Parralle world= world with no divergence with the other and so make them Parralle.

If you understood above, you understood this. The prayer of Gaia.

But in their material of extella they litteraly interchange the two every time. This much that you don't even know anymore if they retcon their own thing.

This can be they ******* up a lot or they being META AS ****. Change the directionality. The Mooncell doesn't exist as a world of Perception. Remember how Waver explained how the future, the possibilities that could acutalize ''EXIST'', but at the same time explained how the future was somethoing ''Without form and hard to discern''? Why would they explain to us with the concept that doesn't exist? If you exist in the Moon Cell - a Universe of Record - the future is something as defined as 1+1=2 in everyday math. If you want to be proper, the reason the Moon Cell has time at all probably is because light has to move in the crystals, and therefore INFORMATION has to be temporally labeled or something like that. In the Universe of Perception of us plebs, as we live physically limited in a specific directionality, unless we had life being this CONTINUUM, there would be no organization - even escrever ia ser complciado pq escrever depende de uma direcionalidade sempre positiva, poir exemplo. And as the very soul in this Nasuverse depends upon em Unidade e Directionalidade, makes for a nice metaphor. TO LIVE IS BEING SOMETHING, NOT TO BE SOMETHING, for to be is to stay in a state, and that is the same as death.

If your perspective is that of the Moon Cell, at any point, you have a numbet of them incoming - the rest is pruned/wasn't chosen BUT THE SAME THING IN THE FUTURE, because they can see it, there's no true possibility, not in the sense of it becoming anything you coould call real in the sense of timelines. Timelines. The true creation of new timelines will to us always look as a DIVERGENCE up to the point any of the is choisen as REAL, aka, the LOCK. Because we, as beings that exist in ONE timeline, cannot chose BOTH, oir NEITHER - you can even say that, in a very true sense, THERE WAS NO CHOICE.

 

[Hasty12345]

This can probably be closed now.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

And yet they get reconned by extella and FGO.

There was already an attempted CRT on that and it was debunked

 

[Chasekilleen]

Mooncell isnt even 2-A anymore.

I mean I want to downgrade from whichever current rating to a much lower rating. (Even lower than 2A)

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I mean I want to downgrade from whichever current rating to a much lower rating. (Even lower than 2A)

So do you have any actual proof

 

[Hasty12345]

Can this be discussed in a CRT? the purpose of this thread was fulfilled a long time ago