GRACE [7-0-0] Western 2000's waifu vs. Mischaracterization incarnate (TT Raven vs. MCU She-Hulk)

[Nonynho]

-Battle's at a minecraft bedrock-only superflat seed
-Speed is equal
-White Raven is restricted together with her 7-C and Class T magic; SH is considered L7-C
-Both start 5m apart and have prior knowledge about the LS gap between them

Note: SH's profile does not clarify which L7-C calc she scales to, so i'll assume the most powerful and consider her at ~2.8 Kilotons. To ease the search of Rae's rating: she scales to Cy who's ~2.6 Kilotons. 1,07x diff is thankfully quite negligible, so we're moving on.

-An actual good superhero: 7 (@Arkansalter2, @Kinggg121132, @Nonynho, @Zyurtunder13, @Deadguy999, @Naito-desu, @MannyQ361)

-Unfortunately a bad lawyer:

-Incon:

 

[Nonynho]

bump

 

[Drite77]

So like, from what I could gather, this is just Raven without powers vs She-Hulk, no knowledge on the LS difference doesn't seem to really matter, SH will probably think she is stronger then a kid and will try to restrain her.

Like, there is not a lot talk about, Raven doesn't really have anything going for her outside of like, a single Martial Art feat, SH is slightly stronger, has a LS advantage and has regen. She probably wouldn't go all out from the beginning, but once she realizes Raven isn't exactly a pushover, she'll probably try out and possibly even use her Shockwaves

 

[Nonynho]

Well, Rae may not have her attacking kit, but she does have TP, flight, forcefields and intangibility while their hits are equal
Rae only has one scan but it is shown time and time again that she's training with Robin and the rest, while SH doesn't have Martial Arts in the profile
And their hits are pretty much equally hurting one another, with Rae having feats of amazingly quick shielding, for example

I really think she high-low diffs this, but i'm waiting for the arguments for SH

 

[Drite77]

I didn't see the LS magic not being restricted, then this is likely a stomp, She Hulk can't really do anything against that

 

[Nonynho]

I didn't see the LS magic not being restricted, then this is likely a stomp, She Hulk can't really do anything against that

LS magic?
Anyway: this ain't no stomp, because all SH has to do is immobilize Rae, and if they get too close, it'll be very hard for Rae to react to a thunderclap due to the speed being equal

 

[Drite77]

because all SH has to do is immobilize Rae

Raven can fly, become intangible, create portal and stop time, how is SH even going to immobilize her with those 4 in play? Like, Raven normally flies, no? SH will never be able to catch her

it'll be very hard for Rae to react to a thunderclap

A thundercalp would just send Raven away, and if they are up close, wouldn't SH try to use her fists? And even then, Raven is a kid, SH wouldn't try to use her Shockwave on her

 

[Nonynho]

how is SH even going to immobilize her with those 4 in play?

She just has to disrupt her plan
SH is dumber than we'd like, but she's not dumb, and will notice that she only has her defensive spells available while needs to get physical to do damage, and she can try to exploit it

Like, Raven normally flies, no? SH will never be able to catch her

If she never goes down, her only wincon would be BFR, which is not IC
She'd have to get physical, and would thankfully notice that this ain't much of a problem, despite the danger if she gets grabbed or immobilized

A thundercalp would just send Raven away

You mean possibly disrupting her flying?
And much like Hulk, SH can jump high af, so if she can disrupt Rae's fly well enough, could be a GG or get her some advantage

and if they are up close, wouldn't SH try to use her fists?

And discover she can shield and/or get intangible, and also respond with better techniques

And even then, Raven is a kid, SH wouldn't try to use her Shockwave on her

Raven's 18, and according to CN she even uses "Tinder" and ****, she doesn't seem young enough for SH to hesitate i think


Well, you made me basically argue for SH (damn you, lmfao) but those just prove that SH can do it, just won't because Rae's great with her kit

 

[Drite77]

If she never goes down, her only wincon would be BFR

What about just restraining SH with her immense LS advantage?

You mean possibly disrupting her flying?

Considering Raven can outrange SH, that won't happen

And much like Hulk, SH can jump high af,

Which is not going to be fast enough for SH to close the distance before Raven immobilizes her

And discover she can shield and/or get intangible

So Raven has access to her 7-C+ Shields, even more of a stomp because her profile specifically states she is only Low 7-C by herself, all her magic is 7-C+

also respond with better techniques

Such as?

Raven's 18, and according to CN she even uses "Tinder" and ****

TIL

she doesn't seem young enough for SH to hesitate i think

Still basically just a small teenager

You also did not address the other Raven hax I commented about either, Raven can still use her powers as long as she can speaks, immobilizing Raven does nothing when she can fly and restrain SH.

This is still a stomp, there is literally nothing SH can do here

 

[Arkansalter2]

Yeah I'm ruling stomp here. Nothing She-Hulk can do here.

 

[Nonynho]

What about just restraining SH with her immense LS advantage?

She doesn't have it, because her LS magic is basically her attacking magic, which is 7-C and is not authorized today

Literally Peak Human vs Class 5 (not the Hulk Guide Statement because we restricted that in the OP)

Considering Raven can outrange SH, that won't happen

As i said before, if she doesn't get close, she won't be able to do damage to her

Which is not going to be fast enough for SH to close the distance before Raven immobilizes her

no LS here todayyyyy

So Raven has access to her 7-C+ Shields, even more of a stomp because her profile specifically states she is only Low 7-C by herself, all her magic is 7-C+

Entirely my bad calling out she had her shields, you're correct.
She doesn't have access to them.

Such as?

Actually having Martial Arts vs. not having it, for starters

TIL

?
"Today i Learned"?
aight, i suppose

Still basically just a small teenager

You'll have to base this argument even more

You also did not address the other Raven hax I commented about either, Raven can still use her powers as long as she can speaks, immobilizing Raven does nothing when she can fly and restrain SH.

What are you talking about?
the other stuff she has access to are dependent on her speed, which is equalized to SH's?
Yeah, she can react pretty fast but that won't save her from everything, cuz when Rae gets intangible, she doesn't do other stuff, which is specially meaningful in this case where she has to do physical damage

This is still a stomp, there is literally nothing SH can do here

Yeah I'm ruling stomp here. Nothing She-Hulk can do here.

My bad about the shields, but this LS stuff is not real here

 

[Drite77]

She doesn't have it, because her LS magic is basically her attacking magic, which is 7-C and is not authorized today

She can still grab things, the only thing you restricted is 7-C magic, which is only offensive magic, she can still use magic to hold things

As i said before, if she doesn't get close, she won't be able to do damage to her

With the current things you set up, yes, she can.

no LS here todayyyyy

She can use it, as I explained before. The only way she can't use it is if you just ban her magic in its entirety.

Actually having Martial Arts vs. not having it, for starters

I interpreted as SH answering with better techniques, and not the other way around, my bad.

You'll have to base this argument even more

Raven is a 5'4'' who is only 18 years old while SH is double that age. She might not be a literal child, but she is can't even legally drink while also being much smaller then SH. There is no reason for her to believe Raven is strong, she is just a teenager, SH wouldn't go all out at all

What are you talking about?
the other stuff she has access to are dependent on her speed, which is equalized to SH's?

You mean the speed of Raven just talking? Time Stop alone would make this a stomp, what can SH do if Raven stops time?

Yeah, she can react pretty fast but that won't save her from everything, cuz when Rae gets intangible, she doesn't do other stuff, which is specially meaningful in this case where she has to do physical damage

She can get away, like I said, you can't restrict Raven's LS with her magic as it is not the same as being used offensivelly

but this LS stuff is not real here

The way Raven uses her magic is as offensively that is 7-C is with Energy Projection and defensively she has shields, those are not allowed here, but holding something is not the same as that, that has a Class T rating and, by her own profile, only her shields are 7-C+.

The only way you can restrict the LS stuff is if you restrict all of Raven's magic

 

[Arkansalter2]

Raven isn't physically impressive either.
You'd have better luck trying to put She-Hulk against another titan without the 7-C crap.

 

[Arkansalter2]

You can probably do Robin ngl.

 

[AThe1412]

You can probably do Robin ngl.

 

[Arkansalter2]

Ah well close I guess. Everyone else would shitslam her.
Theres also the forgotten Gar v She-Hulk thread.

 

[AThe1412]

Hifumi Yozakura

Hifumi Yozakura is the eldest daughter of Taiyo and Mutsumi Yozakura and a member of the Yozakura family's 11th Generation. She is currently a student of Teiou Academy. She is immensely talented even in comparison to the Yozakuras of previous generations. Hifumi is very obsessed with her younger...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Throw her at this 4 year old who soloed Homelander.

 

[Nonynho]

She can still grab things, the only thing you restricted is 7-C magic, which is only offensive magic, she can still use magic to hold things

But her 7-C feat is together with her LS feat, they're the same lol
If her TK is not restricted, is Peak Human LS which shouldn't make much difference vs. Class 5
(Sorry but i'm not repeating myself again in this matter, i respect ur intelligence and i'm pretty sure i made myself quite clear that i planned on this matter)

Raven is a 5'4'' who is only 18 years old while SH is double that age. She might not be a literal child, but she is can't even legally drink while also being much smaller then SH. There is no reason for her to believe Raven is strong, she is just a teenager, SH wouldn't go all out at all

Which means IC she'd delay her actions and then would know Rae's amazing
Still not enough to get her in stomp range, because it's not like Rae's one tapping her, but IMO ensures Rae's victory because after she decides to react she'll meet Rae's defensive kit

You mean the speed of Raven just talking? Time Stop alone would make this a stomp, what can SH do if Raven stops time?

Rae can cast spells without speaking
TS is OOC/Non-Combat Applicable, the only time she used it was because of an explosion of emotions and even when she got in total control of her powers and emotions (be it by training after this event or White Raven), she doesn't use this like at all
Rae'll be getting a revamp together with the rest of the verse by +/- 05/26 if i'm alone at this task and this won't change

Raven isn't physically impressive either.
You'd have better luck trying to put She-Hulk against another titan without the 7-C crap.

You can probably do Robin ngl.

Bruh
Robin will smack her ass and will do it with everyone comparable to him who doesn't have Martial Arts, cuz he's impressive in the area as the colleague's videos show a bit of

I together with @AThe1412 am an opponent of MCU SH, and i'd like to get her a fair and square L
I did 2 IIRC but updates took them off, so i wanna get another one in fighting and am trying to get one in the court too
And really, if Drite notices that i'm properly restricting the LS diff that would exist, Rae can win fair and square today

 

[Drite77]

But her 7-C feat is together with her LS feat, they're the same lol

I'm at work so I can't respond to this fully, but I checked the calc, the 7-C+ does not come from that feat, that feat of her and Terra holding the tower is 3.7 Kilotons, which is still Low 7-C

 

[Nonynho]

Aight, bet, noticed ur 100% correct
Restricting her Class T powers too, cuz AFAIK i can restrict everything that changes tier

 

[Drite77]

I don't know if Lifting Strength is considered a tier the same way AP and Dura are, so I don't if it can't be restricted without restricting Raven's magic

 

[Nonynho]

I don't know if Lifting Strength is considered a tier the same way AP and Dura are, so I don't if it can't be restricted without restricting Raven's magic

It is not fine to restrict abilities in a versus matchup, implicitly or expressly.[...]

• An exception would be if the restricted ability/technique has a separate tier from the main one, and is one the character can consciously restrict themselves from using. In this case, the match can be added.

From this, i think it applies to anything

 

[Drite77]

From this, i think it applies to anything

That's what I mean when I said we don't consider LS tiers the same way we consider AP and Dura

 

[Nonynho]

That's what I mean when I said we don't consider LS tiers the same way we consider AP and Dura

It just says "in a separate tier", not "in a separate AP or Dura tier"
therefore anything with different tiers can be restricted
therefore we can go on with this

 

[Drite77]

It just says "in a separate tier", not "in a separate AP or Dura tier"
therefore anything with different tiers can be restricted
therefore we can go on with this

We don't say "Tier 5, Tier 10", we say "Class 5, Class 10", Lifting Strength is not a tier

 

[Nonynho]

We don't say "Tier 5, Tier 10", we say "Class 5, Class 10", Lifting Strength is not a tier

Is there a clear distinction between the terms in any rule page enough for you to say this?

So because it's not worded as "Tier" we can limit/restrict techniques in AP, Speed, Striking Str, Durability, Range and even Stamina, but not specifically LS? This really does not seem proper in any way

 

[Drite77]

So because it's not worded as "Tier" we can limit/restrict techniques in AP, Speed, Striking Str, Durability, Range and even Stamina, but not specifically LS? This really does not seem proper in any way

We can't limit speed, range or stamina powers that increase them, in fact, if a character has something that massively increases their speed to the point of bieng a stomp, you just can't find matches for that character.

You can only limit things related to AP, Dura and Striking strength

 

[Nonynho]

We can't limit speed, range or stamina powers that increase them, in fact, if a character has something that massively increases their speed to the point of bieng a stomp, you just can't find matches for that character.

Yes you can and many matches do it..?
You can restrict a MHS+ technique to get two Subsonic characters to fight, you can restrict a technique that reaches kilometers for both to be several meters

You can only limit things related to AP, Dura and Striking strength

Where is that stated?

 

[Drite77]

Yes you can and many matches do it..?
You can restrict a MHS+ technique to get two Subsonic characters to fight, you can restrict a technique that reaches kilometers for both to be several meters

I personally never seen it, regardless, if you are going to restrict something, I think it should just pe Raven's magic instead of parts of it

 

[Nonynho]

I personally never seen it, regardless, if you are going to restrict something, I think it should just pe Raven's magic instead of parts of it

Well, her defensive magic kit (intangibility, portal, flight) does not generate a stomp level of advantage, and i firmly believe that the abscence of them would give this level to SH, so i don't see enough reason for a complete magic restriction

 

[Drite77]

and i firmly believe that the abscence of them would give this level to SH

It wouldn't make a stomp in favor of SH, but it would probably give her the win

 

[Nonynho]

Well, iirc when we equalize speed, it's equalized to the slower, so SH's MHS+
At this speed, Rae would get an advantage at the cqc, but whenever SH tries the thunderclap she either has to insta-dodge (impossible if at more than like 1m) or use her spells to get out of danger's way, both can be exploited by SH to try and get an opportunity attack.
If Rae doesn't have her defensive spells, it makes it way too easy to exploit Rae's position, whatever would it be, because it's either get a little bit of distance and clap or clap from short distance and use the dodge to short space to immobilize her indefinetely. No place for strategization or usage of any technique of Rae's, so it's a stomp.

 

[Drite77]

SH would try to punch in cqc instead of using thunderclap, the advantage on CqC is enough to not make this a stomp on SH's favor.

Regardless, I really won't comment on this match if only parts of Raven's magic and not all of it is restricted, it is cherry picking to give an edge to Raven, without her magic, this is not a stomp, it just favors SH

 

[Nonynho]

SH would try to punch in cqc instead of using thunderclap, the advantage on CqC is enough to not make this a stomp on SH's favor.

She may not use this advantage from the start, but SH will notice that Rae has no response if she can only acess her physical stuff and i have just shown why

SH can take many hits from someone with her strength (Rae's case) and she will have more than enough time to notice the exact scenario i brought up despite not being the most brilliant of persons, so you have to argue way better than that to tell me it's not a stomp

Regardless, I really won't comment on this match if only parts of Raven's magic and not all of it is restricted, it is cherry picking to give an edge to Raven, without her magic, this is not a stomp, it just favors SH

It really doesn't give an edge to Rae, just a response. But you do you

 

[Drite77]

so you have to argue way better than that to tell me it's not a stomp

You can't restrict LS, you can only restric AP related things, I'm pretty sure of that, but regardless if that is not the case, this doesn't irc me right.

It really doesn't give an edge to Rae, just a response. But you do you

In a normal matchup, one would just restrict Raven's magic, not aspects of her magic, Raven without her Magic does not make a stomp in favor of SH, it just makes the match in her favor

 

[Nonynho]

In a normal matchup, one would just restrict Raven's magic, not aspects of her magic, Raven without her Magic does not make a stomp in favor of SH, it just makes the match in her favor

It does make a stomp and it is shown by the scenario i brought, an inevitable one which needs an answer to in order to disprove that it's a stomp.

I'm pretty sure of that, but regardless if that is not the case, this doesn't irc me right.

So far we don't have evidence of an impossibity to restrict it

Also, why are you so resistant to just trying to find a scenario for SH if Rae can get intangible or fly, which has answers to? Like, you're making me have to argue for SH's side and that's still not enough to you, what the hell?

 

[Nonynho]

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[Nonynho]

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[Nonynho]

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[Nonynho]

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