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Pirate vs Bug (0-7-0) [concluded]

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IDK their precise statistics, but it seems like Gangplank has the better range, but Cocytus has the better variety of abilities, & LS.

Do both of them prefer going into melee combat?
Also, what are their scaling points, & how do they scale to them?
 
Technically GP should be 7-B but his update wont be for a few more weeks so we'll just go with the current stats

Imaginym said:
Do both of them prefer going into melee combat?
Also, what are their scaling points, & how do they scale to them?
Click to expand...
LoL's current scaling in regards to Low 7-C is shit at the moment, just go with him being comparable to a guy who is 5.6 kilotons

And yeah, Gangplank prefers being in cqc while having his ships bombard the battlefield from long range
 
Y'know what? Changed my Mind
Please any lol knowledgeable member tell me, for starters, which skill feats can we debate here
 
I dunno if this match will last but still...I know something about both (though admittedly "vs" wise I'm more confident on the Overlord side of things) and I'm here to give some imput. As usual I don't think I can follow the discussion easily so I'm not voting (though if you want my opinion I think Icebug takes this any diff from mid to extreme depending on how good his amps/skills are, some details on a couple of GP's abilities and what GP's skill looks like)

GP's gun and cannons (Idk if his ships are involved but still) should be useless here as they're not magical projectiles and guardians are warded against those (and no, to my knowledge it's not an AP thing like Ainz's immunity to <LvL60 Phisical attacks as there are nonmagical builds for LvL100 ranged characters in Yggdrasil and the guardians are obviously built to fight LvL100 players) meaning the only ranged option that I'm not sure gets covered by this is powder kegs but I'm not too sure about the logistics outside of the game.

All this means is that this will be a mostly melee fight where GP may even be surprised at first that this bug is ignoring his gun.
I know nothing on the skill of either (aside from like...both fight good) but Bugman is 100% more versatile here with his ice.
I can't find any sort of calc aside from the Malphite one so I'll use that, in this case GP seems to have a slight AP advantage but considering no Skills/amp/whatever (and those are supposed to be good amps, I can try to elaborate later) Coldant upscales from his calc by being the highest damage guardian (or some statement similar to that) I'd say GP's advantage is minimal if there even is one.

And I refuse to remember the spelling for Freezebeetle's name.
 
Carfusso said:
I dunno if this match will last but still...I know something about both (though admittedly "vs" wise I'm more confident on the Overlord side of things) and I'm here to give some imput. As usual I don't think I can follow the discussion easily so I'm not voting (though if you want my opinion I think Icebug takes this any diff from mid to extreme depending on how good his amps/skills are, some details on a couple of GP's abilities and what GP's skill looks like)

GP's gun and cannons (Idk if his ships are involved but still) should be useless here as they're not magical projectiles and guardians are warded against those (and no, to my knowledge it's not an AP thing like Ainz's immunity to <LvL60 Phisical attacks as there are nonmagical builds for LvL100 ranged characters in Yggdrasil and the guardians are obviously built to fight LvL100 players) meaning the only ranged option that I'm not sure gets covered by this is powder kegs but I'm not too sure about the logistics outside of the game.

All this means is that this will be a mostly melee fight where GP may even be surprised at first that this bug is ignoring his gun.
I know nothing on the skill of either (aside from like...both fight good) but Bugman is 100% more versatile here with his ice.
I can't find any sort of calc aside from the Malphite one so I'll use that, in this case GP seems to have a slight AP advantage but considering no Skills/amp/whatever (and those are supposed to be good amps, I can try to elaborate later) Coldant upscales from his calc by being the highest damage guardian (or some statement similar to that) I'd say GP's advantage is minimal if there even is one.

And I refuse to remember the spelling for Freezebeetle's name.
Click to expand...
His cannons do magic damage actually, and he has stuff that deals True Damage, which ignores resistances and physical defense entirely
 
WeeklyBattles said:
His cannons do magic damage actually, and he has stuff that deals True Damage, which ignores resistances and physical defense entirely
Click to expand...
Oh yeah actually I was wondering how you treat in-game damage and honestly this way feels...nonsensical at best, this would mean Jayce's hammer blast (which is...you know...literally hextech powered) is not magical while Heimer's turrets (same shit) are...I strongly doubt magic/phisical dmg can be used like this.

On Trial by Fire's true dmg again I'm leaning more towards it being pure game mechanics that can't really be translated (it's JUST fire...not much "truth" there) but I'm willing to give it a pass since I want my girl Camille to be as strong as possible. (I am...half joking here)
 
Carfusso said:
GP's gun and cannons (Idk if his ships are involved but still)
Click to expand...
If his R gets included for him to get to that AP and is on his standard equipment, yes it is...but is it?
Carfusso said:
All this means is that this will be a mostly melee fight where GP may even be surprised at first that this bug is ignoring his gun.
Click to expand...
yup, it does, and while that, maybe he'd be severely damaged by Cocytus' move...but to know that, do we have AP calcs for any of the 2?
Carfusso said:
I know nothing on the skill of either (aside from like...both fight good) but Bugman is 100% more versatile here with his ice.
Click to expand...
since GP has 2 "classes" according to the mechanics of Yggdrasil (to both shoot and fight well with the sword) he may have less skill than Cocytus in swordfighting, which means close-range/ "h2h" may be resulting for death to GP, but talking about magic, he may escape the freezing effects by eating his oranges, so i'm not sure how much this will affect our pirate fella
Carfusso said:
I can't find any sort of calc aside from the Malphite one so I'll use that, in this case GP seems to have a slight AP advantage but considering no Skills/amp/whatever (and those are supposed to be good amps, I can try to elaborate later) Coldant upscales from his calc by being the highest damage guardian (or some statement similar to that) I'd say GP's advantage is minimal if there even is one.
Click to expand...
ok, but please tell me more about this "good amps" thing. abt the rest, agreed.
WeeklyBattles said:
His cannons do magic damage actually, and he has stuff that deals True Damage, which ignores resistances and physical defense entirely
Click to expand...
which stuff? Death's Daugher demands 500 silver serpents, and from reading his profile in LoLwiki, he only gain those by killing enemies, so even 1 of those would count as Optional Equipment, so they don't count here.
And Trial By Fire needs him to get an attack to hit Cocytus first, so then the next hit will do the true damage stuff, so you'd have to argue how he'd get 2 hits in 2.5 seconds to hit a = speed ice bug who overskills him.
Also, as his status grow throughout the game and his AP is not one of his greatest (via the same profile stating he gets AD for his adaptative force for being a physical champion), can't we say he'd need to get items so his R gets to a relevant enough damage to actually bypass Cocytus' immunity against any damage coming from low-level sources?
sinthesyzing (hope i spelled this correctly): TD is not going to get accessed by GP soon enough, so we can't count that here and huge chance for his R to not count as something who bypasses Cocytus' immunity to damage
 
ok, now to see something cool:

via the + rules from the wiki, GP has about 52.9 Kilotons
as for Cocytus, we can say he has a comparable AP since the scaling from the pages go like:
Ainz>Cocytus>Albedo≥Shalltear (Cocytus is stated to be able to best Albedo on the 1v1 while Albedo "should be capable of fighting Shalltear Bloodfallen", which was bested by Ainz and is comparable to Platinum Dragon Lord, both being stated to be able to level a medieval city)
Well, Ainz's calc didn't get 100% validated so we don't exactly know how much does this mean, but we can say Cocytus isn't that much far from GP since he also gets buffed by his skills.

as for the abilities:
Cocytus's got a damage boost against "bad enemies"...and we can for sure say that GP is on the naughty bois list in santa's database
Cocytus' have multiple ways of either paralyzing or reducing GP's statistics, and yes, GP can recover from all of them...once each 14~22 seconds. We can easily say Cocytus won't do any less than wrecking our pirate in this time (just in his profile: Frost Aura, Fudo Kensaku, the end of the Immovable Wisdom King Strike, Smite Frost Burn)
Cocytus has a forcefield that deflects non-magical projectiles, so GP doesn't have access to his gun and, for now where he doesn't kill anything to proc his passive, his R also enters on this Immunity

The only reliable damage source for GP here are the barrels, but he doesn't have time to do this too

Cocytus FRA
 
noninho said:
ok, now to see something cool:

via the + rules from the wiki, GP has about 52.9 Kilotons
as for Cocytus, we can say he has a comparable AP since the scaling from the pages go like:
Ainz>Cocytus>Albedo≥Shalltear (Cocytus is stated to be able to best Albedo on the 1v1 while Albedo "should be capable of fighting Shalltear Bloodfallen", which was bested by Ainz and is comparable to Platinum Dragon Lord, both being stated to be able to level a medieval city)
Well, Ainz's calc didn't get 100% validated so we don't exactly know how much does this mean, but we can say Cocytus isn't that much far from GP since he also gets buffed by his skills.

as for the abilities:
Cocytus's got a damage boost against "bad enemies"...and we can for sure say that GP is on the naughty bois list in santa's database
Cocytus' have multiple ways of either paralyzing or reducing GP's statistics, and yes, GP can recover from all of them...once each 14~22 seconds. We can easily say Cocytus won't do any less than wrecking our pirate in this time (just in his profile: Frost Aura, Fudo Kensaku, the end of the Immovable Wisdom King Strike, Smite Frost Burn)
Cocytus has a forcefield that deflects non-magical projectiles, so GP doesn't have access to his gun and, for now where he doesn't kill anything to proc his passive, his R also enters on this Immunity

The only reliable damage source for GP here are the barrels, but he doesn't have time to do this too

Cocytus FRA
Click to expand...
Gangplank is 5.8 Kilotons, not 52
 
If that's so, APwise we have a slight advantage for Cocytus:
1.47 kilotons is what the not-100%-accepted-calc for Ainz's leveling says
Ainz himself is stated on the profile to be higher than that
Shalltear Bloodfallen compares to that higher and Albedo is equal if not higher than that
Cocytus in base is stated to be able to just beat Albedo on an 1v1 and still has the Amp for his Skills, and in this battle's case, some abilities have another Amp for being used against a evil/bad enemy
 
Legit forgot about this...answering the more direct and important points


If his R gets included for him to get to that AP and is on his standard equipment, yes it is...but is it?

Sure, his ship is included but it's a non-factor


since GP has 2 "classes" according to the mechanics of Yggdrasil (to both shoot and fight well with the sword) he may have less skill than Cocytus in swordfighting, which means close-range/ "h2h" may be resulting for death to GP, but talking about magic, he may escape the freezing effects by eating his oranges, so i'm not sure how much this will affect our pirate fella

I strongly doubt you can use classes like that as that would be giving GP powers he doesn't have, anyway looking at feats and statements I'd say Cocytus is the better fighter but GP can keep up.
GP can 100% escape the ice...but he can't escape the dmg.

ok, but please tell me more about this "good amps" thing. abt the rest, agreed.

It's just that the guy who created him gave him his own amp that was able to finish off a raidboss that Ainz and everyone else didn't think the combined "normal" firepower of the 6 people there would be enough to kill in time. It's basically an unquantifiably stronger combo that deals more dmg the more evil the target is so...not going to 1-shot GP or anything but it will do some serious dmg

Finally voting Cocytus because I disappeared and I feel bad about it
 
Well this is an interesting fight. Not really familiar with either verse but I will give my two cents regardless. AP seems to be too confusing though so I will just try and focus on abilities and skill. Also league profiles are wack because theres a massive difference between canon and lore when it comes to playable league characters, ESPECIALLY GP, but I will try to combine both for the most part

So im going to just go off the bat, the big issue that is coming up in this fight is whether or not GP's ult even counts as physical or magic/true damage atttacks, as by lore they are technically just physical canon balls, but by video game logic they are magical and can somehow bypass armour. I would say that they are physical attacks due to lore and the attack being visualised in game as a barage of normal canon ball strikes, but this can be so heavily debated that I leave everyone else to decide for themselves.

THAT being said, GP's Parrrley does count as ranged physical damage attacks and can be blocked, so for the most part the fight for GP will basically boil down to both his sword and his barrels. This is probably GP's greatest strength in this matchup as both Trial by Fire passive deals true damage and his barrels can avoid Cocytus armor to some extent, though the former would be debatable as the passive is technically fire damage, which Cocytus can resist (but it ALSO DEALS TRUE DAMAGE WHAT IS THIS MESS). I would still say that the barrels are a good way to bypass Cocytus armour however.

OK ENOUGH BEATING AROUND THE BUSH: lets get into the rest of the hax each character has. This is the part where Cocytus shines regardless of who would be superior in Melee. Cocytus simply dominates the fight here due to the fact his ice powers give him both range and power.
  • His Ice Aura can cover 100 meters and is a continuous effect, and a lower version of the spell was capable of instakilling lizardmen. To be fair, the lizardmen are MUCH weaker than the bug knight, but thats the thing: It was a LOWER version of his actual spell, meaning his highest level version is likely MUCH stronger.
  • Even if Gankplank managed to escape the Ice Aura, Cocytus can simply fire Piercing Icicles from a distance as well.
  • Even Gankplanks ability to Heal and remove status effects with Remove Scurvy wouldn't change this verdict. Though probably not limited like cooldowns as in game, the abiltiy generally only removes status effects already applied, and struggles against continuous CC effects such as the Ice Aura. And even though the ability can heal GP, it doesn't MITIGATE damage already dealt, so GP could still be killed by the Ice Aura like the lizardmen, especially since the Ice Aura used against the lizardmen is MUCH weaker than the one Cocytus can actually use.
And this isn't even getting into the other factors here, such as the Information analysis (which can analyse GP's abilities) the damage AMP Cocytus gets due to GP being evil AF, and the superior arsenal the Bug Fighter has.

Ultimately Cocytus wins this in hax and range, AP aside.
 
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