Possible DBS Base/Super Saiyan forms scaling change

[OculoOmnibus]

Wanted to bring this up in the 2-C Dragon Ball confirmation thread, but it's better to just make it here as to not derail anything.

Wouldn't it make more sense for anime Base and Super Saiyan level characters to still be around 4-B? I know Super's scaling is really, really stupid and wonky, but there's absolutely no way someone like Frost or Cabba is able to cause destruction on a Low Multiversal scale. It's common knowledge to Dragon Ball fans that the Super Saiyan God form was absorbed into Goku's base, but was it ever mentioned that he retained the God's crimson radiance across the Battle of Gods arc all the way to the pre-Resurrection 'F' training arc anywhere at all?

I've been rewatching the DBS anime and reading the Dragon Ball Wiki (I wouldn't say it's a good place for scaling questions, but it does document the franchise well with references), and like the manga, it seems to imply more that the God forms and the power-up that lets you use God ki in base are on a universe-destroying level of power rather than the Base and Super Saiyan forms, so it's more likely that the whole "God form becomes the new base form" was just a temporary boost that wore off when the ritual's power faded away.

Then again, I don't know exactly so I want to ask around what people think.

UPDATE: Also wanted to mention the actual legend told by Shenron.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is entirely speculation. "There's absolutely no way someone like Frost or Cabba is able to cause destruction on a Low Multiversal scale" is entirely an argument from incredulity without an actual basis to support it. The entire point is that Goku's body learned from fighting as a Super Saiyan God and was pushed to new heights because of it. Having it suddenly fade away would be completely counterintuitive to the point of this new "Saiyan Beyond God" state that Goku (and later Vegeta) takes on as his new base form.

Also, the manga is also accepted as having Goku absorb his SSG form into his base, as shown by many scans within the manga.

 

[TiltedFN]

I agree with clover, also vegeta getting god ki from training with whis also adds to the point that it was not temporary, thats just headcanon. They both have it in base and have retained it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, about the Super Saiyan God legend... Goku went against it the moment he even absorbed SSG's power into his base form. The legend notes how the Saiyan took on the SSG form and then once he lost it, he disappeared as soon as he came.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

I agree with clover, also vegeta getting god ki from training with whis also adds to the point that it was not temporary, thats just headcanon. They both have it in base and have retained it.

I was talking exclusively about the God ki from the ritual.

 

[JirensMom]

The Saiyan Beyond God stuff does not disprove Base Goku being above God Goku from Bog.

Frieza managed to contend with this “SBG” Goku. This same Frieza proceeded to get around 10x stronger (accepted on the wiki) through mental training. Both Goku and Frieza are considered equals in both base and Blue/Golden forms. Meaning base pre top base Goku >>> “SBG” Goku > ROF Base Frieza > BOG God Goku

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I disagree with the arguments presented above.

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah no, hard disagree, Saiyan Beyond God is movie-exclusive stuff, that shit doesn't exist in the anime.

 

[Veronica]

Change Goku base form picture back to the one with a Ki blast. It looks better

 

[KLOL506]

We seriously need to have a goddamned discussion rule for this. This is abused almost as much as the BoG arguments.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Can y'all whip up one?

 

[Veronica]

We seriously need to have a goddamned discussion rule for this. This is abused almost as much as the BoG arguments.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Can y'all whip up one?

But RoF contradicts BoG. I know Buu Saga level of strength being able to move Jiren's neck makes no sense. It is what it is.

 

[KLOL506]

But RoF contradicts BoG. I know Buu Saga level of strength being able to move Jiren's neck makes no sense. It is what it is.

Can we just not? Like seriously, we've seen the arguments before, they don't stick. Let the staff decide this now.

 

[Veronica]

Can we just not? Like seriously, we've seen the arguments before, they don't stick. Let the staff decide this now.

It's DBS inconsistent portrayal fault for switching in and out of base Goku=SSG. I agree a lot of it doesn't make sense if Goku isn't at that power, but there are other examples where it does.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

We seriously need to have a goddamned discussion rule for this. This is abused almost as much as the BoG arguments.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Can y'all whip up one?

The thread or the post above?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

We seriously need to have a goddamned discussion rule for this. This is abused almost as much as the BoG arguments.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Can y'all whip up one?

@StrymULTRA I should alert that he was wanting to make another CRT about this, I believe it is necessary a rule

 

[KLOL506]

The thread or the post above?

Both. We have site rules against such discussion involving DBS' tiers and scalings.

You wanna change them, you go through the admins and AKM. Doubt they'll let you tho.

 

[Veronica]

Just make weakened Jiren 4-B to Possibly 3-B same for base Goku and Frieza

 

[TiltedFN]

Just make weakened Jiren 4-B to Possibly 3-B same for base Goku and Frieza

no, we have already discussed this, stop with the baseless arguments

 

[OculoOmnibus]

Just make weakened Jiren 4-B to Possibly 3-B same for base Goku and Frieza

There's no need to even make a profile for a weakened Jiren.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

We seriously need to have a goddamned discussion rule for this. This is abused almost as much as the BoG arguments.

I thought there already was.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's super baseless to assume Goku doesn't still have SSG's power in his base form, that's literally a crucial part of his fight with Beerus in DBS. His body learned from the experience.

Do we just suddenly assume his body unlearned it? That's ridiculous

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah no, hard disagree, Saiyan Beyond God is movie-exclusive stuff, that shit doesn't exist in the anime.

Wdym movie exclusive? It's literally just what Goku's base form is after his body learns from fighting Beerus as a Super Saiyan God

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Uh...Didn't goku fight Beerus in ssj? With beerus and goku both noting that his power didn't drop? Also, it was stated that he absorbed the power in base [which is way he was able to fight beerus in SSJ] and didn't beerus use more power to nullify SSJ attacks compared to the one he needed to nullify ssg? Or what about goku in base one shotting the dense energy ball that was noted to be equal/stronger than the one used against his SSG form? I disagree with this thread.

 

[KLOL506]

Wdym movie exclusive? It's literally just what Goku's base form is after his body learns from fighting Beerus as a Super Saiyan God

I was disagreeing with MrMTurbo.

And yeah, Saiyan Beyond God is a movie-exclusive thing in RoF where Goku's base being 3-A wasn't a thing. Until the anime clapped back and made it Goku's base state, no SBG bullshit involved.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

And yeah, Saiyan Beyond God is a movie-exclusive thing in RoF where Goku's base being 3-A wasn't a thing. Until the anime clapped back and made it Goku's base state, no SBG bullshit involved.

Well its not like his base form in that movie isn't 3-A either considering there's quite literally only one source calling Saiyan Beyond God a transformation when the script implies its just Goku's base form

 

[TiltedFN]

can this be closed? its messing with the situations at hand

 

[CloverDragon03]

I was disagreeing with MrMTurbo.

And yeah, Saiyan Beyond God is a movie-exclusive thing in RoF where Goku's base being 3-A wasn't a thing. Until the anime clapped back and made it Goku's base state, no SBG bullshit involved.

Ah okay

 

[KLOL506]

can this be closed? its messing with the situations at hand

I'd rather a rule be made against this first, then we can close it.

But yeah, OP's been rejected.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

can this be closed? its messing with the situations at hand

Ah okay

I was disagreeing with MrMTurbo.

And yeah, Saiyan Beyond God is a movie-exclusive thing in RoF where Goku's base being 3-A wasn't a thing. Until the anime clapped back and made it Goku's base state, no SBG bullshit involved.

Guys, before this is closed, make a rule because Ultra said they were going to do a CRT on it and this was discussed like 300 times and all of them were disproved.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'd rather a rule be made against this first, then we can close it.

But yeah, OP's been rejected.

It seems good

 

[OculoOmnibus]

It's super baseless to assume Goku doesn't still have SSG's power in his base form, that's literally a crucial part of his fight with Beerus in DBS.

The problem is whether he still has it after the fight. Obviously in the Beerus fight he loses the appearance of the God form, but still has the residual energy imprinted in him so he can still actually keep up with Beerus' power.

Also is it ever stated that Goku's mortal ki is as powerful as SSG? For all we know it could just be when he uses God ki in his base.

Whatever, just close the thread I don't care.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

The problem is whether he still has it after the fight. Obviously in the Beerus fight he loses the appearance of the God form, but still has the residual energy imprinted in him so he can still actually keep up with Beerus' power.

Considering we see a base Goku level guy shitstomp SS3 Gotenks without doing so much as exerting himself, obviously he kept the power

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'd rather a rule be made against this first, then we can close it.

But yeah, OP's been rejected.

Agreed

 

[CloverDragon03]

The problem is whether he still has it after the fight. Obviously in the Beerus fight he loses the appearance of the God form, but still has the residual energy imprinted in him so he can still actually keep up with Beerus' power.

Also is it ever stated that Goku's mortal ki is as powerful as SSG? For all we know it could just be when he uses God ki in his base.

Whatever, just close the thread I don't care.

I mean you got stuff like Base Copy-Vegeta (who has all of Base Vegeta's power) effortlessly stomping SSJ3 Gotenks

 

[KLOL506]

I'd rather a rule be made against this first, then we can close it.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Your help would be appreciated with adding a new rule to the Discussion Rules page.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

I mean you got stuff like Base Copy-Vegeta (who has all of Base Vegeta's power) effortlessly stomping SSJ3 Gotenks

Based on the scans people have sent in the larger thread, I'll assume Goku kept the power.

Now what I have to say is that the problem comes to all the Ki types (like Ki Suppression, Normal Ki, God Ki), it's outright stated that Goku has the power of a Super Saiyan God when using his God ki power later on in the RoF training arc (hence, Saiyan beyond God and such), and transforming into a Super Saiyan when using the God ki turns him into a Super Saiyan Blue, which is "A Super Saiyan God that becomes a Super Saiyan". It's stated to be a whole different power than normal Ki.

Would that mean Base Goku when using Normal Ki scales to his God Ki? I'm just confused on that, because for all we know Copy-Vegeta could have just been using Vegeta's God ki to wipe the floor with Gotenks.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

I'd rather a rule be made against this first, then we can close it.

Just close the thread, there's already another one about the manga scaling.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We already had this discussion hundreds of times, but Goku getting an automatic Zenkai mid fight against Beerus to the point where his base form was just as strong as his SSG form that shook Universe 7 was mere seconds ago had a pretty blunt face value statement in the Anime. Then he SSJ form multiplied afterward, with his return to SSG form far surpassing that.

There should indeed be a discussion rule about that.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

We already had this discussion hundreds of times, but Goku getting an automatic Zenkai mid fight against Beerus to the point where his base form was just as strong as his SSG form that shook Universe 7 was mere seconds ago had a pretty blunt face value statement in the Anime. Then he SSJ form multiplied afterward, with his return to SSG form far surpassing that.

There should indeed be a discussion rule about that.

There's also him one-shotting an energy sphere which consisted of the combined power of himself as a Super Saiyan after absorbing SSG into his base form and Beerus, plus the latter adding a **** ton more energy to it

 

[Tarang123]

It's DBS inconsistent portrayal fault for switching in and out of base Goku=SSG. I agree a lot of it doesn't make sense if Goku isn't at that power, but there are other examples where it does.

It literally never does. it's insanely consistent that Goku got ridiculously stronger. The inconsistency and stupidity is only how other characters jump from Tier 4 to Tier 2 in days of training, but even that isn't a good argument against Goku