Demon King Daimao Low 1-C Downgrade (999th time)

[LuciferX]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichiban_Ushiro_no_Daimaou_Explanation_Page#The_Law_of_Identity's_Story_Hierarchy

The main reason DKD verse scale to 1-A and High 1-A is due to these two scans.

Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

“You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.”

Claim 1: The Fictional Story/Universe has infinite layers and LOI transcend the entire infinite story hierarchy, thus High 1-A.

Alr. Dream Hierarchy doesn't exist.

1. First of all, it's merely an assumption.

"It was possible the one having the dream"

2. We already know The Law of Identity created the fictional world and there is no hierarchy between her and the fictional world. If you try to connect it to dream hierarchy, then fictional world must exist at the top of hierarchy since it was created by her directly and fictional world is the baseline layer (3D) and rest of hierarchy exist below it.

3. It was never mentioned again in novel and one and only mention is just an assumption, not a confirmation.

Even if you claim it exists, it only scale to Low 1-C.

Claim 2: Fiction has infinite layers.

How the hell infinite layers = infinite hierarchy? where is the evidence for qualitative superiority of those layers?

Hell even in the explaination page says, they are just steps/levels in story. Akuto destroying the world/earth is the first layer/level. The Kanji used in "Layer" also translate to "Level", and it make sense here. Afterlife maybe a higher level world, but second layer is akuto going to afterlife, not the afterlife itself. It's just steps in story.

Fiction has multiple layers, or systems, and when arriving in the afterlife Akuto already destroyed the first one and landed in the second. That second one being the afterlife.

The last part of that quote also imply its refering to fiction in general rather than the fiction they live in.

It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.”

Specially looking into the whole conversation.

“This is a story of divulging what stories are. The convenient deus ex machina does not exist simply as catharsis. It appears in order to tell us what it is we perceive as a story and to help us believe that the story is fictional. That God tells us of the pleasures and limits of the story. And thus we ourselves have become the deus ex machina.”

Bouichirou pointed at himself and then at Brave.

“We are the deus ex machina?”

“Rewriting history can save one from any problem. Even an unfortunate death or a terrible failure.”

“So…the deus ex machina hasn’t been forbidden. It just will fail?”

“Yes. And that leads to a single conclusion.”

“I get it. We’re not the protagonist.”

Brave was dumbfounded.

“That’s right.” Bouichirou disinterestedly dug into the ground with his foot. “And yet your role as a side character has yet to end. After all, Brave is now your only name and you have not lost that title. Most likely, all you are allowed now is to display bravery once everything has been lost.”

“And yet I’m still a side character, huh? So who’s the protagonist?”

He asked despite knowing the answer.

“That is of course the one who divulged several layers of fiction in the story. Most likely, the ending will come when he brings an end to the story exactly as the story dictates. The role of a demon king is to destroy the world, is it not? If a story does not allow the prince and princess to marry and live happily ever after, it must end with the world ending.”

“In other words, I’m important?” asked Akuto.

He still could not believe it.

“I think so.” Yoshie’s expression was completely serious. “You will bring an end to the world. What exactly that means gets tricky, though.”

“So whatever it means, I have to settle things?”

She nodded.

“The blonde Keena disappeared when she was satisfied, so you must be satisfied as well.”


“I get that, but what does it mean for me to be satisfied?”

“You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.”

Yoshie clung to him from behind as he sat in a chair.

“Quick question.”

“What? I thought we were having a serious discussion.”

“I’m asking because this is a serious discussion. Why are you hugging me from behind?”

“I’m indulging in my reward for playing the role of a side character. Specifically, the role of one of the three Goddesses.”

“But this isn’t exactly a sexy topic of discussion.”

So, this Infinite story Hierarchy isn't even a thing.

Conclusion:

High 1-A and 1-A rankings should be removed from Law of Identity, Extra Universal Gods, Akuto Sai, Hiroshi Miwa's profiles and change it to Low 1-C.

Neutral: @RaveeCPN @Overlord_THE_END

Disagree: @StorytellingDemonKing @Godsatoshi23 @Tarang123

 

[Highness]

never ending

 

[Everything12]

@DontTalkDT

 

[Deceived3596]

This isn't getting accepted, and DT's aboutta fondle this thread like he's fondle every other thread which tried to downgrade this verse's 1-A/High 1-A ratings.

Following.

 

[KLOL506]

At this point I won't be surprised if DontTalkDT doesn't just lose it and just calmly makes a discussion rule against this.

 

[Reiner04]

You brought it upon yourself my guy. Face the chaos now.

 

[RaveeCPN]

I'll stay neutral until Akuto123 and DT give their opinions, but right now I am closer to disagreeing.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Watchiny

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Neutral FRA

 

[DontTalkDT]

Feels like I'm starting to repeat myself, meaning that OP once again probably hasn't read past debate

All said in OP is irrelevant, as for the ratings it's not necessary for the hierarchy to exist, it only matters that TLOI is powerful enough that, if it existed, she could still transcend it. And that is clearly given by the best explanations we receive for her nature by the most reliable source (i.e. scientists who studied that stuff).

Given, the second statement in OP does indicate that it does actually exist. Also, saying "it was never mentioned again" is hardly an argument for a statement that comes from the last volume. Or second to last volume for the first statement... which means it was actually mentioned again... by a different scientist at that

So yeah. Ratings are fine as they are.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

honestly at this point let's just make the ratings solid 1-A and High 1-A

Disagree with the OP via DT's reasons

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Disagree with the OP.

 

[LuciferX]

Given, the second statement in OP does indicate that it does actually exist. Also, saying "it was never mentioned again" is hardly an argument for a statement that comes from the last volume. Or second to last volume for the first statement... which means it was actually mentioned again... by a different scientist at that

1. It's an assumption.

2. It doesn't exist because LOI created the main fictional world and there is no hierarchy mentioned between them?

If there is an hierarchy where does fictional world exist in hierarchy?

It has an end. TLOI is the end of it. infinite is merely a hyperbole.

So if it exist it should be 1-B, there is no reason for High 1-A.

You didn't counter infinite story hierarchy part btw.

 

[Darksmash]

Why do none of these threads go for the weakest part of the tiering which is 1-A afterlife? That shit will get torn apart like tissue paper in a downgrade thread.

 

[LuciferX]

Why do none of these threads go for the weakest part of the tiering which is 1-A afterlife? That shit will get torn apart like tissue paper in a downgrade thread.

Afterlife consider as Low 1-C in explanation page ig.

 

[Darksmash]

Afterlife consider as Low 1-C in explanation page ig.

I am talking about the "likely 1-A" thing for Akuto. Literally a braindead rating based upon a dumb assumption.

 

[LuciferX]

I am talking about the "likely 1-A" thing for Akuto. Literally a braindead rating based upon a dumb assumption.

Oh yeh. I think its due to story hierarchy based on misinterpreted "fiction has infinite layers" scan, the second point I addressed above

 

[Darksmash]

Oh yeh. I think its due to story hierarchy based on misinterpreted "fiction has infinite layers" scan, the second point I addressed above

No it's literally just an nlf assumption that Akuto can create infinite hierarchies for some reason. The other hierarchy is treated as a 1-A hierarchy

 

[LuciferX]

No it's literally just an nlf assumption that Akuto can create infinite hierarchies for some reason.

Aren't they just parallel worlds? Infinite Hierarchy thing comes from the quote I mentioned above tho.

The other hierarchy is treated as a 1-A hierarchy

Which one? Dream Hierarchy?

 

[Darksmash]

Aren't they just parallel worlds?

Yeah but it's assumed that he can create infinite hierarchies in them, for some reason.

Which one? Dream Hierarchy?

Yeah the one leading upto the law of identity.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Aren't they just parallel worlds? Infinite Hierarchy thing comes from the quote I mentioned above tho.

Which one? Dream Hierarchy?

The stories that Akuto created in the Afterlife. He couldn't create infinite stories because he didn't have great control over the contents and couldn't find the ending he desired. Then gave up after creating a finite amount.

 

[LuciferX]

Yeah but it's assumed that he can create infinite hierarchies in them, for some reason.

That reason is the second point I pointed out in the post.

Yeah the one leading upto the law of identity.

Well. It doesn't exist.

 

[LuciferX]

The stories that Akuto created in the Afterlife. He couldn't create infinite stories because he didn't have great control over the contents and couldn't find the ending he desired. Then gave up after creating a finite amount.

Yeh, but that "infinite hierarchy" term included there for no reason.

 

[Darksmash]

Well. It doesn't exist.

Well funny thing the hypothetical hierarchy is actually downwards starting from LOI in the raws. Which actually makes sense with the context as it's talking about how LOI is the first being in existence and dreamed everything.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

You will have better luck in the penultimate volume. Bouichiro talks a bit more about the cosmology and his words put doubt into an infinite cosmology. Akuto's stories also don't really have any transcendence given his more or less equal record against the Outer Gods who have dived into his stories. The rating is based on more or less a hypothetical scenario that may or may not exist. But that's enough I guess.

 

[LuciferX]

Well funny thing the hypothetical hierarchy is actually downwards starting from LOI in the raws. Which actually makes sense with the context as it's talking about how LOI is the first being in existence and dreamed everything.

Even if hierarchy exist the main world or baseline layer must exist at top of chain and rest of dream worlds exist below baseline layer, so transcending fictional world is still Low 1-C.

 

[AKUTO123]

I don't really know where to start, but I think let's start with the dream hierarchy first. The reason why this is a guess is because they could not prove it. Scientists were leading them to this conclusion, but because they were not in a position to go and skip all the fictional layers, they gave a statement as "it should be like this", but this does not mean that there is no dream hierarchy because every time the author is asked about the dream hierarchy gave information about him. If such a hierarchy does not really exist, the author will reply by saying, "Actually, the dream hierarchy is a mistake of scientists." In short, yes, the dream hierarchy definitely exists.

 

[AKUTO123]

Secondly, layer, level, plane, these are all used to indicate quality and transcendence. The general expression of the dream hierarchy already shows the higher dimensions, but if your concern is the layers of fiction, here naturally also says the infinite layer that is infinitely withdrawn. The fictions that are mentioned as higher and lower levels, which are infinitely different from each other, naturally describe higher fictionality than each other, so I don't know what else to say. also keena with blonde hair after Akuto destroyed the first layer: it already hints that it is much higher in all the other layers. Since there is an infinite difference between each layer and the other layer, what is meant by the word "retreat forever" already implies not approaching but further away from infinity.

 

[AKUTO123]

Do scientists have to constantly re-give that 5-line-long statement for all of the higher fictional realities that I don't actually understand? And it is obvious that you did not read the blog, whereas we asked you to read the blog and oppose the blog in the previous crt. In the blog, it is stated that afterlife is the next fiction, and higher fictions that continue in the dream hierarchy naturally fall within 1.2 of the other layers within a system. and3. If you think that it behaves completely differently and functions differently after that, we definitely do not use a explained system that works differently in advanced levels, unless your burden of proof is stated here. that's all for now

 

[DontTalkDT]

1. It's an assumption.

No it isn't. It's the scientist's findings regarding what TLOI's nature is and Yoshie's conclusion as to what happened.

2. It doesn't exist because LOI created the main fictional world and there is no hierarchy mentioned between them?

Which was never actually said in the novel. Not that it matters because Keena is TLOI, so TLOI is factually even existent in the main world. Heck, the law of identity exists in any being with identity, she exists on all layers of reality simultaneously, to some extent.

If there is an hierarchy where does fictional world exist in hierarchy?

By what Yoshi say, clearly not at the top. The scientist's entire point was how their world is fictional, not how others worlds are fictional to them, after all. So there are infinite levels above. Maybe also below (we know of at least the world blonde Keena created in the book), but that is less explored.

It has an end. TLOI is the end of it. infinite is merely a hyperbole.

No it doesn't have an end. What is said is that if there are infinite levels TLOI is still above. Something can be above an infinite hierarchy of something and the hierarchy can still be infinite... that's literally what our entire tiering system for 1-A is based on, so unless you don't understand the tiering system I don't think this requires further explanation.

You didn't counter infinite story hierarchy part btw.

The claim 2 thing? We already had a long debate on the subject in which I sufficiently proved that the story layers are reality fiction, so I really don't know where you're coming from.
By our R>F rules those are perfectly fine. We don't require separate prove of qualitative superiority, if something is fiction to something else.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Well, after the last comments, I guess I can say I disagree completely.

 

[AKUTO123]

Well funny thing the hypothetical hierarchy is actually downwards starting from LOI in the raws. Which actually makes sense with the context as it's talking about how LOI is the first being in existence and dreamed everything.

I asked you to throw the translation you mentioned in every crt opened, but you didn't throw that other translation you mentioned once.

 

[AKUTO123]

At this point I won't be surprised if DontTalkDT doesn't just lose it and just calmly makes a discussion rule against this.

So if he does that, I'll understand. Because I couldn't count how many crts were opened by copy-pasting the article on comic Vine or containing exactly the same arguments. but dont talk answered all of them I seriously respect.

 

[LuciferX]

No it isn't. It's the scientist's findings regarding what TLOI's nature is and Yoshie's conclusion as to what happened.

So you are going to ignore the part "it was possible"? Why even scientists researches treat as credible sources?

Which was never actually said in the novel.

Your are telling me LOI didn't create the fictional world?

Not that it matters because Keena is TLOI, so TLOI is factually even existent in the main world. Heck, the law of identity exists in any being with identity, she exists on all layers of reality simultaneously, to some extent.

Being Omnipresence is irrelevant here.

By what Yoshi say, clearly not at the top.

Why? It must exist at top since its directly created by TLOI and not someone else dream within someone else.

Nowhere even said TLOI dreamed the main fictional world, that's why dream hierarchy assumption is invalid here.

The scientist's entire point was how their world is fictional, not how others worlds are fictional to them, after all. So there are infinite levels above. Maybe also below (we know of at least the world blonde Keena created in the book), but that is less explored.

So You don't have any idea where does worlds exist in chain?

You are saying it exist at the bottom of chain right? then dream hierarchy doesn't exist cuz it's not a dream of someone else.

No.it doesn't have an end. What is said is that if there are infinite levels TLOI is still above. Something can be above an infinite hierarchy of something and the hierarchy can still be infinite...

It's like infinite ladder in umineko. However, it doesn't exist in first place.

The claim 2 thing? We already had a long debate on the subject in which I sufficiently proved that the story layers are reality fiction, so I really don't know where you're coming from.
By our R>F rules those are perfectly fine. We don't require separate prove of qualitative superiority, if something is fiction to something else.

No. There is no evidence every layer has r>f. just assumed based on afterlife being the second step.

If you think fictional world is like a game, then layers are missions in the game. first is akuto destroying world, second is going to afterlife, they are steps in story not r>f hierarchy.

Kanji used in layers translate to "levels" also.

Why even bouichirou's words consider as a credible source, How he does know that? Even Yoshie asking him whether it's a serious discussion.

 

[LuciferX]

No it doesn't have an end. What is said is that if there are infinite levels TLOI is still above. Something can be above an infinite hierarchy of something and the hierarchy can still be infinite... that's literally what our entire tiering system for 1-A is based on, so unless you don't understand the tiering system I don't think this requires further explanation.

Where does it says Law of Identity exist above chain? Read the below text carefully.

but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

The origin of chain is Law of Identity.

Your claim is unsupported by text.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So you are going to ignore the part "it was possible"? Why even scientists researches treat as credible sources?

The "it was possible" refers to the hierarchy. What it doesn't refer to is the fact that TLOI would be above the hierarchy. I.e. it has no impact on the tier of TLOI regardless, because again, it suffices that she is able to be above such a hierarchy if it exists. And that is stated as fact.

Given, as the existence is later confirmed by Yoshie, we know that it actually exists anyways.

Your are telling me LOI didn't create the fictional world?

She has, but that has nothing to do with anything I said. Just because she created the world, that doesn't mean she didn't create the higher realities, too.

Being Omnipresence is irrelevant here.

Not really, as your argument inherently only works on the assumption that TLOI has a fixed number of layers of infinity between her and any world. Which she doesn't.

Why? It must exist at top since its directly created by TLOI and not someone else dream within someone else.

That's a complete non-sequitur. TLOI can create more than one layer of reality. There is no requirement that every entity can only create one layer, so that each layer needs a different creator. Heck, TLOI clearly also created the Afterlife, which basically proves she creates multiple layers.

Nowhere even said TLOI dreamed the main fictional world, that's why dream hierarchy assumption is invalid here.

Bro, what?

But what if the world were someone’s dream?

That answer was also simple.

The world was created by the storyteller known as the Law of Identity.

Then what was the world? The world was fiction.

Works better in full context, but the entire damn journal entry is about the main world is TLOIs fiction. The entire last volume is about ending her story.

So You don't have any idea where does worlds exist in chain?

More like, I can't exclude the possibility that there are levels of reality that aren't mentioned. Devil's proof and all that. Aside from that we know that it is below the infinite hierarchy of reality-fiction. And that's all what matters tiering wise.

You are saying it exist at the bottom of chain right? then dream hierarchy doesn't exist cuz it's not a dream of someone else.

Neither is it necessarily the bottom nor would this follow from it being the bottom. Again, you don't need one dreaming entity per layer, especially of TLOI is every dreaming entity simultaneously anways.

No. There is no evidence every layer has r>f. just assumed based on afterlife being the second step.

If you think fictional world is like a game, then layers are missions in the game. first is akuto destroying world, second is going to afterlife, they are steps in story not r>f hierarchy.

Kanji used in Layers translate to "levels" also.

Yeah, that doesn't even remotely address my evidence and is a random theory without any supporting evidence at that. It already fails at the basic stage where the layers are described to be like dreams and writing by the scientists.

Why even Bouichirou's words consider as a credible source, How he does know that? Even Yoshie asking him whether it's a serious discussion.

You ask why we would take the words of the researcher that researched this subject seriously?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Where does it says Law of Identity exist above chain? Read the below text carefully.

The origin of chain is Law of Identity.

Your claim is unsupported by text.

What it says is that if you reject all the other layers, TLOI would still remain as one higher. That if the world is a dream, of someone dreaming, of someone dreaming, of someone dreaming... and in the end it would still be TLOIs fiction.

Like, you reduce the passage to half a sentence and say it makes no sense. In context it is pretty clear by how it follows up by saying how TLOI has taken in all of existence.

The world was created by the storyteller known as the Law of Identity.

Then what was the world? The world was fiction.

But at the same time, the world was an absolute truth from inside that fiction.

From the outside, it was fiction. From the inside, it was truth.

What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective?

How did the world come to be?

Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

That one would be the one who had taken in all existence and all life.

That one would be too lonely to call a god.

They would be a truly solitary individual.

Then what was the world?

All the miscellaneous things added to the Law of Identity would be the world.

Even if the world was fictional to the Law of Identity, that fiction could be life with a will of its own. In fact, it would normally exceed the Law of Identity’s will. And if each individual was free, someone would eventually attempt to learn the truth of the world.

 

[LuciferX]

The "it was possible" refers to the hierarchy.

It's the point here.

What it doesn't refer to is the fact that TLOI would be above the hierarchy. I.e. it has no impact on the tier of TLOI regardless, because again, it suffices that she is able to be above such a hierarchy if it exists. And that is stated as fact.

Where the heck says she is above it. She is the beginning of it.

Given, as the existence is later confirmed by Yoshie, we know that it actually exists anyways.

No. Answer where does fictional world exist in hierarchy?

Why even Yoshie relaible here? Even before researches rejected her findings about 4th dimension btw.

She has, but that has nothing to do with anything I said. Just because she created the world, that doesn't mean she didn't create the higher realities, too.

Then where does fictional worlds exist in hierarchy? It must be the top since she created it first and rest exist below it.

That's a complete non-sequitur. TLOI can create more than one layer of reality. There is no requirement that every entity can only create one layer, so that each layer needs a different creator. Heck, TLOI clearly also created the Afterlife, which basically proves she creates multiple layers.

I'm talking about How Dream Hierarchy is not 1-A and baseline layer exist at the top and by creating it TLOI is Low 1-C

Bro, what?

Dude, it asks whether it's a dream of her and replied it was created hy her, she can create it with her creation power not by dreaming.

Dreaming a world and directly creating a world by power has a difference.

More like, I can't exclude the possibility that there are levels of reality that aren't mentioned. Devil's proof and all that. Aside from that we know that it is below the infinite hierarchy of reality-fiction. And that's all what matters tiering wise.

How even infinite story hierarchy can exist in a finite space? I'm aware Akuto rebuild the afterlife but how does that change the fact it's not a finite space?

Neither is it necessarily the bottom nor would this follow from it being the bottom. Again, you don't need one dreaming entity per layer, especially of TLOI is every dreaming entity simultaneously anways.

Where does it says it's the same entity dreaming in every world? If so, it mean TLOI transcend herself?

Yeah, that doesn't even remotely address my evidence and is a random theory without any supporting evidence at that. It already fails at the basic stage where the layers are described to be like dreams and writing by the scientists.

Evidence? There is no connection between those layers and dreams?

I want to ask a question, Did Akuto ever destroy the world?

You ask why we would take the words of the researcher that researched this subject seriously?

Yoshie is literary joking about his sttmt.

 

[LuciferX]

What it says is that if you reject all the other layers, TLOI would still remain as one higher. That if the world is a dream, of someone dreaming, of someone dreaming, of someone dreaming... and in the end it would still be TLOIs fiction.

Like, you reduce the passage to half a sentence and say it makes no sense. In context it is pretty clear by how it follows up by saying how TLOI has taken in all of existence.

You interprete it in a wrong way. She doesn't transcend infinite levels of existences, she just exist at the end of hierarchy.

 

[Tarang123]

Gonna have to disagree with this. DT summed up most of my issues pretty well