10-C + Tier 11 Expansion

[The_Impress]

Hello, this is a sitewide topic that has bothered me ever since I joined, and affects around 805 pages on the wiki currently (Tier 11 + 10-C), so I'd get on discussing it.

Keep in mind I received very little help from other staff members in proposing this (and thus have turned to piblic threads for some resolution), so some of the stuff may look incomplete, and I feel that is fine, this should be a topic of debate afterall

Introduction​

Currently if you were to note our listing for 10-C, it goes from 40 joules to 0. At a glance this is fine, but in terms of indexing this leads to unfortunate listings, and making us list that somehow an electron or even a quark, deserves to be in the exact same tiering as a 8 year old (keep in mind these are IRL examples, there is no more context I can possibly add to make this sound feasible).

Now keep in mind I recognise 10-C isn't a priority tier exactly for most users, in Japanese content especially I see 10-C is a fairly rare tier to have, but you have to note however, that in the western media sphere it is VERY COMMON, and many verses (I feel you can think of a dozen animated films from your own memory) are mostly set in 10-C settings.

So the issue comes that our listings are far too imprecise to account for these verses, and essentially, mean it, which is actually somewhat disheartening as a fan of many of these intricate verses like Rango and Epic, whose file can be made as easy as "slap a 10-C on it, nothing else required".

So my current proposal is to change this, and allow for more expansive tiering of weaker-than-human characters, because the wiki very badly needs it.

Tiers Proposed​

As said in the beginning, this is kinda scrappy as I didn't get proper support, and in general I feel wider wiki should attempt to input on it, all the names are placeholders, all the margins are debatable, you just have to make a compelling case otherwise

High 10-C: Below Average Human level​

(Margin: 40 J to [Punch of a 5 year old]))

10-C: Small Animal level​

(Margin: [Punch of a 5 year old] to Kinetic Energy of a Common Shrew's movement)

Low 10-C: Smol Animal level​

(Margin: Kinetic Energy of a Common Shrew's movement to Kinetic Energy of the movement of a Paramoecium)
Blatant placeholder name, up for better suggestions

11-A: Microbial level​

(Margin: Kinetic Energy of the movement of a Paramoecium to ATP output of a Prokaryote [E. Coli. most likely])

11-B: Atomic level​

(Margin: ATP output of a prokaryote [E. Coli most likely] to 0)

11-C: Hypoversal level​

(Margin: 2-dimensional, 1-dimensional, 0-dimensional and lower)
Don't see why this basic and small a margin needs to occupy an entire tier to themselves.

Calculations​

Currently, the values for ATP output of a prokaryote and kinetic energy of a common shrew and paramoecium moving are available very easily online through basic info tracking and public scientific studies.

Only value needing calculation currently, is the joule output of a 5 year old's punch

Feasibility​

Current estimate is 805 pages being affected by these revisions, which while DOES sound like a large number, keep in mind a massive majority of them are self-evident, these margins are based on common real life animals afterall, and that 805 pages with a decent communal effort is VERY easily done, two people alone can very well edit tiering for around a 150 pages in two days maximum, so with a decent enough teamsize this revision can very well be done in less than a week

And in regards to pages just not giving us enough information for calculations, I want you recognize that, that is then an objectively poor page even by current standard, and worth deletion. We're harming NO ONE.

And with all that I hope this revision is discussed well and something productive is resultant of it

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm generally in agreement with this, I think Tier 11 as is is small enough (in terms of representants) that it should be turned into a single tier, and this kind of distinction for what is currently 10-C is more important to make.

 

[The_Impress]

Just for the sake of coherence, please input on the concept of 10-C split as a whole right now, and then move on to tier boundaries and specifics and whatnot

Thread will never end otherwise

 

[Tllmbrg]

I don’t agree with any of this

Just because it’s small doesn’t mean we should fuse all of tier 11 together because being 2D, 1D and below are inherently different things in terms of stats
This’s like if we fused 10-A and 10-B because they’re relatively speaking small and don’t have a wide margin between low and high end

At the very best I’m okay with the idea of making current Tier 11 tier 12

As for the 10-C split:
Those borders are arbitrary as one can get, now granted you can say most tiers are but usually most tiers at least have some basis (Star level, wall level and so on), plus while you say it’s a fairly common tier in western media I must wonder how many pages we actually could get in each sub category considering how precise each seem to be
Like how do you calc this shit
Also basing the tiers on movement speed seems kinda bad considering a jog from a regular person 9-C so I’m certain the average KE of a Shrew will be inflated

TLDR: I don’t like the borders at all and I don’t wanna fuse all of current tier 11 together

 

[Hellbeast]

I can work with this

 

[The_Impress]

I don’t agree with any of this

Just because it’s small doesn’t mean we should fuse all of tier 11 together because being 2D, 1D and below are inherently different things in terms of stats

Invalid point when we do the EXACT same thing for Low 1-C, 1-C and High 1-C

This’s like if we fused 10-A and 10-B because they’re relatively speaking small and don’t have a wide margin between low and high end

Irrelevant point, they're not categorically similar, current Tier 11 is.

As for the 10-C split:
Those borders are arbitrary as one can get, now granted you can say most tiers are but usually most tiers at least have some basis (Star level, wall level and so on), plus while you say it’s a fairly common tier in western media I must wonder how many pages we actually could get in each sub category considering how precise each seem to be
Like how do you calc this shit

...mate I don't see how the difference between an atom and a kid is "arbitrary", this is a very illogical concept.

Also 10-C calcs can exist, it's not exactly tough

Also basing the tiers on movement speed seems kinda bad considering a jog from a regular person 9-C so I’m certain the average KE of a Shrew will be inflated

Animals can use KE to attack, in any translatable term on the wiki, moot point.

This is like arguing "boars ramming shouldn't be on there file bruh, inflated"

TLDR: I don’t like the borders at all and I don’t wanna fuse all of current tier 11 together

I mean your points are just ignorant as shit :/

 

[Armorchompy]

I don’t agree with any of this

Just because it’s small doesn’t mean we should fuse all of tier 11 together because being 2D, 1D and below are inherently different things in terms of stats
This’s like if we fused 10-A and 10-B because they’re relatively speaking small and don’t have a wide margin between low and high end

The difference is that there's a thousand 10-A/10-B characters and like 30 Tier 11 ones. I'm sure this can be fixed with something like this though

• High 11-C - High Hypoverse level
• 11-C -Hypoverse level
• Low 11-C - Low Hypoverse level

At the very best I’m okay with the idea of making current Tier 11 tier 12

please god no

As for the 10-C split:
Those borders are arbitrary as one can get, now granted you can say most tiers are but usually most tiers at least have some basis (Star level, wall level and so on), plus while you say it’s a fairly common tier in western media I must wonder how many pages we actually could get in each sub category considering how precise each seem to be
Like how do you calc this shit

It's really not meant to be calculated but eyeballed as I understand it- If it's a bacteria, it goes in the bacteria tier. If it's an insect, it goes in the shrew-insect tier

Also basing the tiers on movement speed seems kinda bad considering a jog from a regular person 9-C so I’m certain the average KE of a Shrew will be inflated

There's no real other way to calculate something like this. Plus it gets less inflated as animals get smaller and slower.

 

[Armorchompy]

Animals use KE to attack, in any translatable term on the wiki, moot point

I mean generally KE was agreed to not be scaled to normal stats for IRL animals, it was just never applied. But as a way of eyeballing it, it should be fine.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm generally in agreement with this, with the exception of me not liking the use of KE and ATP. From what I remember about biology, ATP's a vast overestimate of the combat applicable energy usage. And KE wildly inflates things (if we used it for human tiers humans would be decently into 9-C).

I'm not married to the rest of the tier borders and names, but I don't have much better ideas myself.

@Tllmbrg If you don't like current tier 11 being merged into one tier, then I'd suggest, instead of creating a "tier 12", putting them at High 11-C, 11-C, and Low 11-C.

2-D, 1-D, and below are fairly different in terms of stats, but so are 5-D and 6-D, and 7-D and 8-D, and all finite dimensions above 12-D. But we don't have much issue with merging them.

More of the tiers than you'd expect aren't actually based on much. Particularly tier 7 and 10-B/10-A/9-C/9-B are based on notions as vapid as "We don't want the weakest bullets getting athlete level", which just ends up having the strongest IRL athletes get the same tier as bullets because they demonstrably can output more energy. I think basing lower tiers on various groups of smaller animals, getting down to cells and atoms, is actually one of the better ways of defining tier borders.

@Zark Animals use KE to attack, in any translatable term on the wiki, moot point

We've stopped using this as the main form of determining attacks for a reason. And we've never done it for humans for a similar reason; KE is way overinflated when we're looking at lower tiers. It would be, imo, a disservice on the system to go from using KE for tier 11, to using punches and ruling out KE for tier 10, then going back to KE for the rest of the higher tiers. I at least want some consistency in that it shouldn't be used so flagrantly for lower tiers.

@Armor There's no real other way to calculate something like this. Plus it gets less inflated as animals get smaller and slower.

This point seems wildly off the mark, actually. Smaller animals are often faster relative to their body size than larger animals. And KE scales with the square of velocity, only scaling linearly with mass. Really, KE would be more inflated with smaller animals.

But if there's really nothing else that can be done I'd prefer doing nothing and not introducing half a dozen new flagrant inaccuracies out of laziness.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean generally KE was agreed to not be scaled to normal stats for IRL animals, it was just never applied.

There is a difference between indexing and marginmaking regardless, a shrew's KE can imply mass and whatnot required for files. That's what's needed in practice to understand who fits what tier

 

[Armorchompy]

There is a difference between indexing and marginmaking regardless, a shrew's KE can imply mass and whatnot required for files. That's what's needed in practice to understand who fits what tier

yeah i edited that message a little before you posted this

 

[Armorchompy]

This point seems wildly off the mark, actually. Smaller animals are often faster relative to their body size than larger animals. And KE scales with the square of velocity, only scaling linearly with mass. Really, KE would be more inflated with smaller animals.

That is true, actually. Although I stand by it being a passable interpretation of an animal's AP in lack of better resources.

But if there's really nothing else that can be done I'd prefer doing nothing and not introducing half a dozen new flagrant inaccuracies out of laziness.

Better to have a slightly inaccurate tier for bacteria than lumping them in the same tier as a capybara.

 

[Agnaa]

If you want to eyeball with arbitrary borders, we already do that with Small Size.

I wonder if there'd be a way to cut off AP being measured in Joules below 10-C, and just use "If you qualify for this type of Small Size, you get this tier".

Better to have a slightly inaccurate tier for bacteria than lumping them in the same tier as a capybara.

I disagree, we could have more tiers in tier 3 to expand Universe Level to Observable Universe Level, Total Universe Level, Quilted Multiverse Level, Eternal Inflation Universe Level, etc. Those would be informed but highly speculative new tiers that would cover few characters.

And it's not like the site's unfamiliar with there being large gaps within tiers.

 

[Tllmbrg]

The difference is that there's a thousand 10-A/10-B characters and like 30 Tier 11 ones. I'm sure this can be fixed with something like this though

• High 11-C - High Hypoverse level
• 11-C -Hypoverse level
• Low 11-C - Low Hypoverse level

That’s fine ig, I’m just against lumping it all together to the exact same tier

...mate I don't see how the difference between an atom and a kid is "arbitrary", this is a very illogical concept.

This’s more in reference of the higher ends of the borders
Why a 5 year’s old punch and not a 4 year olds?
Why go with a Shrew of all things, etc etc
Like you can’t tell me this’s not extremely arbitrary, at least tiers like say 9-B had users basically calc tons of wall destructions to get the wide margin in that tier so
Maybe if we get some agreed on average as a community sure, but on a whim this seems like a weird border

Animals can use KE to attack, in any translatable term on the wiki, moot point.

This is like arguing "boars ramming shouldn't be on there file bruh, inflated"

Hotter take, we shouldn’t have pages for IRL animals because our format can’t properly account for them
Since they’re there more so as a reference point for feats related to animals they should be replaced by something like the Reference for Common Feats page but for animals

 

[The_Impress]

We've stopped using this as the main form of determining attacks for a reason. And we've never done it for humans for a similar reason; KE is way overinflated when we're looking at lower tiers. It would be, imo, a disservice on the system to go from using KE for tier 11, to using punches and ruling out KE for tier 10, then going back to KE for the rest of the higher tiers. I at least want some consistency in that it shouldn't be used so flagrantly for lower tiers.

The major difference is that many animals DO use ramming as their primary form of attack, and at that small of a body the force you're generating is genuinely nothing in contrast to your durability and whatnot.

This is genuinely poor understanding of animals to claim "yesyes KE is invalid for every animal altogether", like I genuinely want to you think about how many times you've seen a rat or a cat pass out pr get majorly hurt from a full-speed collision, it's next to none.

Small animals can genuinely not generate enough kinetic energy by themselves to break their own bones.

 

[The_Impress]

That’s fine ig, I’m just against lumping it all together to the exact same tier

This’s more in reference of the higher ends of the borders
Why a 5 year’s old punch and not a 4 year olds?

"Why a Small Town and not a village", " Why a City and not a hill" that's the level of argument here.

Why go with a Shrew of all things, etc etc

...because shrew is representative of an exceptionally small animal

Like you can’t tell me this’s not extremely arbitrary, at least tiers like say 9-B had users basically calc tons of wall destructions to get the wide margin in that tier so

...do you recognize Street level exist, and that 9-A is literally an overlap of Room level

Maybe if we get some agreed on average as a community sure, but on a whim this seems like a weird border

...Tilm what am I doing right now?

Hotter take, we shouldn’t have pages for IRL animals because our format can’t properly account for them

Derailing. Stop.

 

[Agnaa]

The major difference is that many animals DO use ramming as their primary form of attack, and at that small of a body the force you're generating is genuinely nothing in contrast to your durability and whatnot.

This is genuinely poor understanding of animals to claim "yesyes KE is invalid for every animal altogether", like I genuinely want to you think about how many times you've seen a rat or a cat pass out pr get majorly hurt from a full-speed collision, it's next to none.

Can't wait to have a satyr (fictional humanoid with horns that can ram into people) get 9-C because of KE, and get treated as one-shotting normal humans, despite normal humans being able to produce that exact same amount of KE.

Also, we as humans don't pass out from falling/jumping from half our height above the ground. Yet that level of PE lands in 9-C. An animal not getting KO'd by it doesn't mean we should treat it as usable.

 

[Tllmbrg]

"Why a Small Town and not a village", " Why a City and not a hill" that's the level of argument here.

I mean I don’t like Small Town level, always found it pointless so...because shrew is representative of an exceptionally small animal

...do you recognize Street level exist, and that 9-A is literally an overlap of Room level

Didn’t we nuke room level?
Street level is also a dumb tier yes, we have peak humans at it for some reason, and not even as the baseline but a bit into it
So I’m all in for revising it

 

[The_Impress]

Can't wait to have a satyr (fictional humanoid with horns that can ram into people) get 9-C because of KE, and get treated as one-shotting normal humans, despite normal humans being able to produce that exact same amount of KE.

Can't wait for you to quit using a slippery slope fallacy

Also, we as humans don't pass out from falling/jumping from half our height above the ground. Yet that level of PE lands in 9-C

..you're ignorant of energy redistribution and reduction in that, if you were to do it improperly you'd break a bone and not scale.

Nulling context, invalid point.

An animal not getting KO'd by it doesn't mean we should treat it as usable.

Why?

 

[Hellbeast]

It's really not meant to be calculated but eyeballed as I understand it- If it's a bacteria, it goes in the bacteria tier. If it's an insect, it goes in the shrew-insect tier

Ark’s Dog Sized Ants laugh

 

[The_Impress]

I mean I don’t like Small Town level, always found it pointless so...because shrew is representative of an exceptionally small animal

Didn’t we nuke room level?
Street level is also a dumb tier yes, we have peak humans at it for some reason, and not even as the baseline but a bit into it
So I’m all in for revising it

You're making up shit wiki doesn't consider and forcing it on the revision. Quit it. These are your opinions, and this is a staff thread. We didn't ask for them.

If you're not saying anything that comes from precedent at the absolute least, you're derailing.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Why?

You can survive 9-C hits IRL lol
Are humans now 9-C

 

[QuasiYuri]

Feel like Microbial and Atomic could just be under the same thing.

With 0/1/2D being 11-B and 11-C being anything below that.

 

[The_Impress]

You can survive 9-C hits IRL lol
Are humans now 9-C

Humans survive them with IRL mechanics wiki is unable to consider.

Invalid point.

 

[Agnaa]

Can't wait for you to quit using a slippery slope fallacy

Slippery slope isn't a fallacy. It's only a bad argument if the leaps are unjustified.

You said "KE is good for many animals because they use ramming as their primary means of attack", so I brought up how that would make humans with horns that ram qualify, and then by our rules on one-shots be able to one-shot normal humans, despite nothing having changed about their punching or even their ramming strength, only their standard tactics.

..you're ignorant of energy redistribution and reduction in that, if you were to do it improperly you'd break a bone and not scale. Nulling context, invalid point.

"If you hit a weak point you can get injured by attacks that normally wouldn't injure you". What a revelation. The important point being when you don't get hit in a weak point you can tank it just fine.

Why?

Because that would make humans scale to KE and PE, making them 9-C. We chose to tier them by punches to get around this weirdness.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Humans survive them with IRL mechanics wiki is unable to consider.

And animals often do that too?

 

[The_Impress]

Slippery slope isn't a fallacy. It's only a bad argument if the leaps are unjustified.

It IS unjustified because we straight up changed our standards for fictional treatment of KE.

This thing can just never happen on the wiki.

You said "KE is good for many animals because they use ramming as their primary means of attack", so I brought up how that would make humans with horns that ram qualify, and then by our rules on one-shots be able to one-shot normal humans, despite nothing having changed about their punching or even their ramming strength, only their standard tactics.

You're ignorant to the fact that piercing mechanics are the main factor in that. In general a satyr is too big anywho to extend these standards towards, they can take advantage of other mechanics which smaller animals don't have.

Penalizing improper understanding of physics on a file is the fault of the revision you're saying this KE issue comes from.

"If you hit a weak point you can get injured by attacks that normally wouldn't injure you". What a revelation. The important point being when you don't get hit in a weak point you can tank it just fine.

...there is no weakpoint, it's the bones breaking. You can't invent weakpoints on the fly here Agnaa

 

[The_Impress]

And animals often do that too?

Not with fuckall redistribution area of KE, which small animals possess.

 

[The_Impress]

In general this thread isn't "haha debunked close thread gg", you recognise alternative suggestions have to presented as well, right?

 

[Agnaa]

It IS unjustified because we straight up changed our standards for fictional treatment of KE. This thing can just never happen on the wiki.

Well yeah, I just think it's shitty logic in general, and I'm using an example that doesn't exist in reality (satyrs) to demonstrate how such standards for KE on animals would suck. I do not actually think fictional verses would get treated that way because I'm aware that we apply different KE standards to real life and fiction.

You're ignorant to the fact that piercing mechanics are the main factor in that.

Main factor in what, exactly? I said a lot there so just the word "that" is a bit too vague.

...there is no weakpoint, it's the bones breaking. You can't invent weakpoints on the fly here Agnaa

I don't normally break my bones when jumping from 1m off the ground. As you yourself said:

..you're ignorant of energy redistribution and reduction in that, if you were to do it improperly you'd break a bone and not scale. Nulling context, invalid point.

If you land improperly, putting all the force on a particularly weak bone, you'd break it, because that bone is weaker than others in the body. Really I struggle to come up with ways that jumping from 1m off the ground would break a bone, I think I'd need to land on one hand or my head and have the energy be transferred to some weak bone in at an angle it's not designed to take force from. Everything else (landing flat, landing on your feet) would have me be perfectly safe.

If you took the force animals that ram without getting KO'd receive, and placed it at some arbitrary weaker spot of their body, they'd get ****** up and not scale. Because that's how IRL mechanics work.

This messiness is why animal KE shouldn't be used for tier borders.

In general this thread isn't "haha debunked close thread gg", you recognise alternative suggestions have to presented as well, right?

I suggested not using joule values, since y'all seem to only care about eyeballing these tiers anyway. I also said I'd be okay if there was a more reasonable method to get the joule borders. I also said that if none of that's fine, then it'd be better to not do this revision, to avoid introducing all those inaccuracies.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I agree with Agnaa
Although I think eyeballing will make the higher borders really messy
Can anyone tell me through looking if a 1 year old voting is below or above the Shrew’s KE?

 

[The_Impress]

It IS unjustified because we straight up changed our standards for fictional treatment of KE. This thing can just never happen on the wiki.

Well yeah, I just think it's shitty logic in general, and I'm using an example that doesn't exist in reality (satyrs) to demonstrate how such standards for KE on animals would suck. I do not actually think fictional verses would get treated that way because I'm aware that we apply different KE standards to real life and fiction.

So your example comes from a scenario where I'm left completely speculative of the mechanics presented because I LITERALLY can't compare it to anything in real life.

This is a poor example rigged to be against me, we're discussing real life mechanics, you can't propose an entirely fictional being not being logical.

You're ignorant to the fact that piercing mechanics are the main factor in that.

Main factor in what, exactly? I said a lot there so just the word "that" is a bit too vague.

You're not considering the satyr redistibuted energy to lessen impact, you're not considering piercing damage's pressure played a major factor in killing the opponent, you're not considering likely a majority of the energy was likely absorbed by the horn itself rather than the satyr's entire body

If none of this happened and the satyr just rammed through the human being with zero resistance, I'll say yes, it's a 9-C being, and that's a completely valid assertion

...there is no weakpoint, it's the bones breaking. You can't invent weakpoints on the fly here Agnaa

I don't normally break my bones when jumping from 1m off the ground. As you yourself said:



If you land improperly, putting all the force on a particularly weak bone, you'd break it, because that bone is weaker than others in the body.

No, that's not how it works. You redistributed the force your received into kinetic energy which move your body to lessen the impacy substantially, you literally don't tank the PE of falling through your bones in any relevant way because your body compensates for this in many ways, this is just how humans work, you're evolved from creatures BUILT to tank long falls since they lived on trees. Saying that physiological advantage makes you in ANY WAY, comparable to a rat, is a ridiculous notion

If you took the force animals that ram without getting KO'd receive, and placed it at some arbitrary weaker spot of their body, they'd get ****** up and not scale. Because that's how IRL mechanics work.

This doesn't happen in smaller animals because their body is literally too small to do any relevant energy redistribution and thus yes, they do tank the full yield of the KE.

In general this thread isn't "haha debunked close thread gg", you recognise alternative suggestions have to presented as well, right?

I suggested not using joule values, since y'all seem to only care about eyeballing these tiers anyway. I also said I'd be okay if there was a more reasonable method to get the joule borders. I also said that if none of that's fine, then it'd be better to not do this revision, to avoid introducing all those inaccuracies.

Inaccuracies is debatable, I don't mind eyeballing instead of Prokaryotic value for the record anyways, and I can think of substitutions for the KE of the shrew.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Eh, I'm against it. It makes a very simple tier complicated and whatever the 0 Joules Tier ends up being will still have infinite gaps.
The ending tiers of the scale are vast by nature. The difference in speed of MFTL+ characters is just as bad, but it's not like we would add more tiers there either.
To that comes that this tier is is in general self-explanatory. You don't need a separate tier to explain that a cell, which is ranked 10-C for being a cell, is weaker than a child, which is ranked 10-C for being a child.

 

[Agnaa]

So your example comes from a scenario where I'm left completely speculative of the mechanics presented because I LITERALLY can't compare it to anything in real life.

This is a poor example rigged to be against me, we're discussing real life mechanics, you can't propose an entirely fictional being not being logical.

"A human but ramming people is standard tactics for them and maybe they have some realistic form of head-protection against it" isn't that far off from reality lmao. I'm not talking about mountain-sized beings or magic users, I'm talking about a human with one minor alteration that real animals have.

You're not considering the satyr redistibuted energy to lessen impact, you're not considering piercing damage's pressure played a major factor in killing the opponent, you're not considering likely a majority of the energy was likely absorbed by the horn itself rather than the satyr's entire body

If none of this happened and the satyr just rammed through the human being with zero resistance, I'll say yes, it's a 9-C being, and that's a completely valid assertion

To be clear, my example didn't involve the satyr in question actually ramming through a human. Just existing as a being with the standard tactic of ramming people.

No, that's not how it works. You redistributed the force your received into kinetic energy which move your body to lessen the impacy substantially, you literally don't tank the PE of falling through your bones in any relevant way because your body compensates for this in many ways, this is just how humans work, you're evolved from creatures BUILT to tank long falls since they lived on trees. Saying that physiological advantage makes you in ANY WAY, comparable to a rat, is a ridiculous notion

Newsflash: That's how all animals function. It's physics-based. Good luck bringing out an animal that regularly rams other animals as a means of attack which hasn't evolved to be better at tanking that.

This doesn't happen in smaller animals because their body is literally too small to do any relevant energy redistribution and thus yes, they do tank the full yield of the KE.

Energy redistribution still involves tanking the full yield. You don't magically erase energy from existence, your body's just built in a way where its more resilient at particular forces from particular angles. Small animals do this too.

Inaccuracies is debatable, I don't mind eyeballing instead of Prokaryotic value for the record anyways, and I can think of substitutions for the KE of the shrew.

Awesome, let me know when you've got proposals to share on that front.

 

[The_Impress]

Eh, I'm against it. It makes a very simple tier complicated and whatever the 0 Joules Tier ends up being will still have infinite gaps.
The ending tiers of the scale are vast by nature. The difference in speed of MFTL+ characters is just as bad, but it's not like we would add more tiers there either.
To that comes that this tier is is in general self-explanatory. You don't need a separate tier to explain that a cell, which is ranked 10-C for being a cell, is weaker than a child, which is ranked 10-C for being a child.

Issue is many relevant mechanics are buried inside this vague distinction :v

There IS merit in differentiating between a cell and a kid, both can have a variety of matches between them, and "simple" can very well be stated to be "imprecise" or "unhelpful".

To be clear, my example didn't involve the satyr in question actually ramming through a human. Just existing as a being with the standard tactic of ramming people.

I mean then add another point of energy reduction, elasticity of human flesh. Doesn't harm my point.

Newsflash: That's how all animals function. It's physics-based. Good luck bringing out an animal that regularly rams other animals as a means of attack which hasn't evolved to be better at tanking that.

...I never said an animal evolved to ramming an opponent was the example, they have mechanics for it.

I said animals can shake off ramming full speed into things, and that should scale, which is what most animals can do, rare instances involve beasts like cheetah and gazelles, which are outliers in this regard.

You're having an awfully great luck at half-reading my arguments.

Energy redistribution still involves tanking the full yield. You don't magically erase energy from existence, your body's just built in a way where its more resilient at particular forces from particular angles. Small animals do this too.

Small animals do this in a negligible regard because they don't possess enough surface to relevantly redistribute it.

And you're tanking the full yield, but you're also trivializing a vast majority of it in case of humans. You tank the full yield of ATP production too, but in an irrelevant sense, so it's not a compelling argument you're making here.

Awesome, let me know when you've got proposals to share on that front.

After this resolves, sure :y

 

[Agnaa]

...I never said an animal evolved to ramming an opponent was the example, they have mechanics for it.

The major difference is that many animals DO use ramming as their primary form of attack, and at that small of a body the force you're generating is genuinely nothing in contrast to your durability and whatnot.

I said animals can shake off ramming full speed into things, and that should scale, which is what most animals can do, rare instances involve beasts like cheetah and gazelles, which are outliers in this regard.

Most animals have thick skulls at the front to better survive that. It's not like those "rare instances/outliers" decided to become particularly vulnerable to ramming, it's that they didn't decide to become particularly resistant to it. An important distinction if your argument is "Humans evolved to survive PE so they shouldn't scale to it".

Small animals do this in a negligible regard because they don't possess enough surface to relevantly redistribute it.

Energy redistribution isn't just about distributing it over a wider area. It's also about being built to favourably tank impacts from certain directions, which small animals are, in fact, very capable of doing.

And you're tanking the full yield, but you're also trivializing a vast majority of it in case of humans. You tank the full yield of ATP production too, but in an irrelevant sense, so it's not a compelling argument you're making here.

Tanking something does mean "trivializing" it, otherwise you'd get rekt by it.

I'm not saying it's meaningful for tiering. I'm not arguing for 9-C humans. I'm not arguing for KE to be used when deciding tier borders. In fact, I'm arguing against that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree with DontTalk.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk is most likely correct as usual. However, if that does not get sufficient staff support, Agnaa's take on this also makes reasonable sense.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I disagree with this for reasons talked about countless times on countless threads. While I'm aware of insect/arachnid themed verse tiering vs blood cell theme verses, most 10-C characters are just very seldom compared to those higher up, and it's just making more tiers that feel like rare occasioned sub tiers.

I'm more or less in agreement with DontTalkDT and Tllmbrg

 

[KieranH10]

Yeah, I agree with DontTalk and co on this, we don't need to separate tiers to know that a cell is stomped by a cat. It seems like a lot of work for something essentially all users already know the difference between.