1-A without infinite dimensions

[Furudo_Erika]

So, how exactly do you reach 1-A without having infinite dimensions?

It cannot be "being beyond dimensions", as that is just a dimension higher by default, nor can it be predating dimensions themselves as that was rejected.

I heard that one way is having a nature superior to dimensions entirely...but what exactly qualifies as "a nature superior to them"?



Also imo, predating dimensions should be a "nature" superior to dimensions, as it heavily implies their nature is one that doesn't require any form of dimensionality to even exist...which would not be 0D, as even that is a form of dimensionality.

Like, their nature allowed them to exist before the very notion of dimensions even existed in the first place. As in, their very existence is unrestricted by any number of dimensions as they have existed before dimensions themselves have even came to be.

However, as I mentioned before...predating dimensions was rejected to be 1-A. So I ask again...what kind of "nature" qualifies for 1-A without the need of infinite dimensions?

 

[Duragoji123]

IIRC it's that you can be 1-A if you're completely indescribable from stacking higher infinites on top of larger dimensional structures or equivalents. So, no matter if you keep increasing dimensions on top of infinity, to infinity, and eventually reach an uncountable infinity in the form of Aleph-1, it still wouldn't be even close to reaching you. Though honestly I'm certain it's merely on a case-by-case basis, as different verse's have different cosmology explanations.

Though, take this with a grain of salt, I'm not absolutely certain about this prospect myself lol. Also I heard something about a CRT for 1-A tiers, so this might change if what I've heard is true. Who knows

 

[Furudo_Erika]

IIRC it's that you can be 1-A if you're completely indescribable from stacking higher infinites on top of larger dimensional structures or equivalents. So, no matter if you keep increasing dimensions on top of infinity, to infinity, and eventually reach an uncountable infinity in the form of Aleph-1, it still wouldn't be even close to reaching you. Though honestly I'm certain it's merely on a case-by-case basis, as different verse's have different cosmology explanations.

Though, take this with a grain of salt, I'm not absolutely certain about this prospect myself lol. Also I heard something about a CRT for 1-A tiers, so this might change if what I've heard is true. Who knows

But that's still using "infinity" to describe their nature.

But I'm talking about things which never mention infinity in any way or form, yet still reach 1-A.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Also, predating dimensions should logically mean you're fully unbound by infinite dimensions anyways, as you do not need a concept of dimensionality to exist.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Scaling to mathematical statements or negative theology. That's the only way if the word infinity or dimensions aren't allowed in the statement. Predating something only means you can exist without it, not that you are superior to it.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Scaling to mathematical statements or negative theology. That's the only way if the word infinity or dimensions aren't allowed in the statement. Predating something only means you can exist without it, not that you are superior to it.

Mathematical statements...like what?
Infinite dimensions would still fall under "mathematical statements", and there's plenty of 1-As which don't do either.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Mathematical statements...like what?
Infinite dimensions would still fall under "mathematical statements", and there's plenty of 1-As which don't do either.

Scaling directly to structures stated to be comparable to alephs in size, or use affecting enough objects to reach equivalent sizes. Anyway, I don't know what exactly you're hoping for people to say. If this is for a specific verse it would be easier if you just told us.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Scaling directly to structures stated to be comparable to alephs in size, or use affecting enough objects to reach equivalent sizes. Anyway, I don't know what exactly you're hoping for people to say.

Yet verses can still reach 1-A even with 4D structures, there's no "alephs" to even talk about.

As this has nothing to really do with higher structures, but their nature in relation to dimensions on a conceptual level
Key word being "nature"

If this is for a specific verse it would be easier if you just told us.

It's not.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The only way for a verse to reach 1-A or higher without the mention of "Dimensions", "Infinity", "Alephs" is through Transcendence or Negative Theology.

There is no baseline "Nature" that something has towards dimensions, everything depends on context. There is no statement about one's nature that will automatically put them above dimensions, without details of sed dimensions being explained, even if it's on a conceptual level.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Explain what "transcendence" would qualify.
As "transcendence" is a very vague term used, even on the wiki.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Any type of superiority we consider equivalent to dimensional differences. Viewing something as fictional or nonexistent for example. Of course, you would need a much more powerful statement to jump from Low 2-C to 1-A.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Though...what range would be needed to affect a being who cannot be bound by dimensions? As the concept of "direction" literally would not even exist for them, regardless of how many dimensions are in the verse.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Unknown until more details are given.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Also, how did SMT reach 1-A?
"Viewing something as fictional or nonexistent", it's not that for sure.

SMT doesn't mention infinite dimensions either, in fact, I'm pretty sure it only reaches Low 1-C in terms of dimensionality.

Also...wtf is "negative theology"? In simple terms, as I am not reading a thesis.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Also, how did SMT reach 1-A?
"Viewing something as fictional or nonexistent", it's not that for sure.

SMT doesn't mention infinite dimensions either, in fact, I'm pretty sure it only reaches Low 1-C in terms of dimensionality.

Approaching the summit of Megami Tensei's strength, Demons such as Elohim, one of the Names of YHVH, exist and reign over Chokmah, one of the three Sefirot that comprise the Atziluth (Archetypal World) within the Tree of Life, which transcends the concept of dimensions, a realm of formless, nonexistent information unbound by the concept of coordinates. Elohim, one of YHVH's many aliases, is equal to Shaddai and Sabaoth, in which the former is metaphysically undifferentiated from Metatron, stapling Demons of this caliber at 1-A.

It's on the verse page if you look.

Also...wtf is "negative theology"? In simple terms, as I am not reading a thesis.

It is to refer to something negative. Basically, everything stated about said thing or being, is lesser than what it truly is.

So if I say Being A is 7D, that means they are greater then 7D, if I say they are around Infinite-Dimensional, that means they are greater than that.

As such, any verse with even 6 Higher Dimensions with dimensional transcendence between them could be 1-A if a being follows negative theology in the verse.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Using Negative Theology you can skip entire tiers. Jump from 1-A, to High 1-A, and High 1-A to Tier 0.

 

[Iiliminal]

Also...wtf is "negative theology"?

spaceman explained it but heres an example

Swirl of the Root

「　」, also referred to as the Swirl of the Root or most commonly the Root, is a metaphysical "force" that exists beyond everything else in the entire Nasuverse, transcendent of reality, dualistic function, and all concepts. It stores and archives all possible information, and is both the origin...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Phoenks]

In cases such as Yogiri Takatou, proving that a character is superior to dimensions no matter how many are arbitrarily added is enough for 1-A.

Negative theology would mean that you are impossible to describe with positive statements. Basically, think of Brahman in Hinduism. It is impossible to describe and always transcends any definition, description, or trait you could ascribe it.

Predating dimensionality doesn't infer you're beyond dimensionality.

Abstract things and concepts don't exist within dimensionality in the first place, yet they don't transcend it. Dimensions are simply not relevant to their existence.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

"transcends the concept of dimensions, a realm of formless, nonexistent information unbound by the concept of coordinates."


Pretty sure predating dimensions would kinda do that anyway, as they would need to be transcendent to the concept of dimensions to sustain an existence in the first place...as the concept of dimensions literally did not exist before them, which should naturally make them unbound by dimensions on a conceptual level.

And "unbound by the concept of coordinates", well...that's kinda what dimensions are; a coordinate axis, direction, or vector.
By predating the concept of dimensions, they would naturally be unbound by spatiotemporal coordinates conceptually.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

"transcends the concept of dimensions, a realm of formless, nonexistent information unbound by the concept of coordinates."


Pretty sure predating dimensions would kinda do that anyway, as they would need to be transcendent to the concept of dimensions to sustain an existence in the first place...as the concept of dimensions literally did not exist before them, which should naturally make them unbound by dimensions on a conceptual level.

And "unbound by the concept of coordinates", well...that's kinda what dimensions are; a coordinate axis, direction, or vector.
By predating the concept of dimensions, they would naturally be unbound by spatiotemporal coordinates conceptually.

As they, have existed before the concept of dimensions of established in the first place.

So:
They > Concept of dimensional coordinates

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Pretty sure predating dimensions would kinda do that anyway

If I'm a human who predates gravity, it doesn't mean when gravity suddenly comes into existent that I will be unaffected. Same if I predate fire or even the concept of fire, I'll still get burned when I touch it. Predating something, existing before it's existence, does not make you superior, simply older than it, and not needing it to survive.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

If I'm a human who predates gravity, it doesn't mean when gravity suddenly comes into existent that I will be unaffected. Same if I predate fire or even the concept of fire, I'll still get burned when I touch it. Predating something, existing before it's existence, does not make you superior, simply older than it, and not needing it to survive.

So...you're saying once something comes into existence, you are still affected by it?
"If I'm a human who predates gravity, it doesn't mean when gravity suddenly comes into existent that I will be unaffected."
"Same if I predate fire or even the concept of fire, I'll still get burned when I touch it."

But say that doesn't apply to them; for when the concept of dimensions do come into existence, they are still not bound by any of it nor can be influenced or affected in any spatiotemporal way or form as part of their very nature.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Which sounds like some kind of superiority over dimensions on a conceptual level

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

But that doesn't apply to them; when when the concept of dimensions come into existence, they are still not bound by any of it nor can be influenced or affected in any spatiotemporal way or form.

I'm still assuming this is "Hypothetical" since you said this isn't about a specific verse. So if this being, IS STATED to have existed before the concept of dimensions, and was not affected by the concept of dimensions coming into being, and still lacks dimensionality, then they may be 1-A. If said dimensions have superiority to one another.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

If said dimensions have superiority to one another.

They would be like spatiotemporal coordinates; they are orthogonal to each other.
Much like how 3D space has height, length, and depth.

Which from what I have read, dimensional axes which are orthogonal to one another do qualify.
Otherwise...having 4D space (just space, not spacetime) would not be Low 2-C; just 3-A.
Yet, it is Low 2-C.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Also, how did SMT reach 1-A?
"Viewing something as fictional or nonexistent", it's not that for sure.

SMT doesn't mention infinite dimensions either, in fact, I'm pretty sure it only reaches Low 1-C in terms of dimensionality.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

They would be like spatiotemporal coordinates; they are orthogonal to each other.
Much like how 3D space has height, length, and depth.

Which from what I have read, dimensional axes which are orthogonal to one another do qualify.
Otherwise...having 4D space (just space, not spacetime) would not be Low 2-C; just 3-A.
Yet, it is Low 2-C.

Our universe if 4D because it has 3 Spatial Dimensions and 1 Temporal Dimension, so calling our universe three-dimensional is not technically wrong, but it is also four-dimensional, we just live in the spatial part.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Our universe if 4D because it has 3 Spatial Dimensions and 1 Temporal Dimension, so calling our universe three-dimensional is not technically wrong, but it is also four-dimensional, we just live in the spatial part.

Which is explicitly why I mentioned 3D space, without the time.
It's 4D spacetime, but 3D space; 3+1 dimensional

But 4D spatial coordinates is Low 2-C, but add in time, it is then Low 1-C; 4+1 dimensional
Point is, dimensions which run orthogonal to each other do qualify for superiority.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Bit off topic.

But would a higher-dimensional space be infinite if only one dimension is infinite?

Like, picture an infinite corridor:
Say the corridor is 3m wide, 3m tall...but infinite in length. Well, it is still an infinite 3D space as the corridor would have no end, even if only one dimension is infinite and the others are finite.
How would this translate to higher dimensions?

 

[Cat275]

Huh isn't this being discussed on a thread I heard.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Also, why do Low 1-C and higher require infinitely-sized spatial dimensions, while Low 2-C to 2-A can have universes finite in physical size?
Why does Low 2-C to 2-A get this pass but all others do not?

Is it because of "time"? Well, time may not be endless. What if the "future" does not even exist...or rather, has not yet been established? If so, then the dimension of time cannot be infinite in scale as it comes to a halt as the future does not yet exist.

In this example, all dimensional axes are finite, both space and time. So would this still be Low 2-C, or?

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Also...personally, I see "higher dimensions" as mere range, and have nothing to do with actual power.
As dimensions, are vectors, or coordinate axes....aka they are just directions in which something can move in or be projected into

For example:
Say A unleashed an attack on a...5D being, and that attack contains infinite energy...however, the attack is only projected in three dimensions.
Now, B attacks the 5D being, with only 10 joules of energy...but the attack is projected in five dimensions.

Which person dealt more damage to the 5D being?

The answer is, B.
Because even though A used infinite energy, it was only projected in three dimensions, therefore only affecting an infinitesimal "slice" of their entire being.
While B, affected their entire being, rather than an infinitesimal "slice" of them, regardless of the power gap.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Also, say...and I'm just spitballing here...
An אω amount of energy projected at them in three dimensions

What would happen? Well...nothing.
As the energy would still only affect a infinitesimal 3D "slice" of them, as it fails to affect/"reach" their entire form

Of course this may never happen, but it is something to think about.

 

[Cat275]

You've been talking to yourself for quite a while. Try using edit.

 

[Iiliminal]

it’s ok I’ve done the same

 

[Cat275]

I mean I've done it myself as well but I'm just giving an advice.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

This is being revised at https://vsbattles.com/threads/low-1-a-wiki-wide-tiering-revision-beyond-dimensions.151894/.