1-A Void upgrade for Shadow Fight

[Richard5128pm]

Hello, this thread primarily focuses on The void of shadow fight cosmology. I'll try to provide as much context as possible.

This is a very typical void of nothingness. In shadow fight 2, Tenebris (the void's avatar) describes the void as the emptiness in which worlds are born. Establishing the fact that it lacks any dimensional feature / physicality.

The portal -
It’s basically just a hole is reality, through which the void is peeking through. As Tenebris explained, it’s just complete emptiness beyond the portal. It is also where Tenebris vs Shadow takes place.

In shadow fight 3, we get some more conetxt on the void.

The void is described as a place where anything is possible.

The void is much “vaster” than space time, a requirement for beyond dimensional existence (type 2).

Quoting Beyond-Dimensional Existence page -

As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them.

Furthermore, keep in mind that Type 2 Beyond-Dimensional Existence (In particular the latter variant) is not simply a combination of a non-dimensional state of existence and greater raw power than all dimensional structures in a cosmology – Though that is a necessary condition to qualify for it, it is not a sufficient one. Instead, the non-dimensional state of existence must be the direct cause of the character/realm's superiority over dimensions. A simple example being voids of nothingness that lack space, time and physicality entirely, but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop.

The void is a perfect fit for 1-A rating. There are many more scans for the void, regarding the void containing ancient stars, star rivers and the ability to erase a person's body and soul.

So, how would this affect the verse?
Only three characters get scaled to the void

1) Architect (the writer) - As per this thread, architect's 2-B, likely 2-A scaling is based off the void. With this 1-A void upgrade, Architect's 2-B /2-A tiers should be replaced with 1-A

Conslusion - At least Low 2-C, possibly Higher physically. 1-A with Plot Manipulation and Data Manipulation

2) Shadow (the protagonist) - Following tenebris' defeat, the player is presented with two options, wheather to turn back (as tenebris advised) or enter the portal. When shadow decides to turn back, the portal (the void) blesses him with its own power, the power to mold and shape reality, to create anew. The void becomes his direct source of power. This will be given a separate key of its own since turn back option is regarded as non canon for the main story line.

Conclusion - Low 2-C | Low 2-C, 1-A with the Portal's power

3) Tenebris (Void's avatar) - Has the portal's power, similar to shadow.

Conclusion - At least Low 2-C, possibly Higher. 1-A with the Portal's power

 

[Robo432343]

i feel like this is way too vague for a 1-A rating

 

[Secimatar]

i feel like this is way too vague for a 1-A rating

We have other statements too proving its a void of nothingness

 

[Richard5128pm]

i feel like this is way too vague for a 1-A rating

It is a void of nothingness, also the most powerful entity in the verse (except the writer) with just it's vastness

 

[Robo432343]

all we're getting is that the void is just a big space that gave birth to worlds


and the things you said don't match with what the scans say
you said, "The void is much “vaster” than space time" but the scans don't even say that

 

[Richard5128pm]

you said, "The void is much “vaster” than space time" but the scans don't even say that

Ishtar was talking about her universe being a small part of the vast world of the void

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

i feel like this is way too vague for a 1-A rating

bruh speaking fax

Ishtar was talking about her universe being a small part of the vast world of the void

The problem is that it is not said to be aspatial and atemporal; it is something you just assumed.

 

[Secimatar]

all we're getting is that the void is just a big space that gave birth to worlds


and the things you said don't match with what the scans say
you said, "The void is much “vaster” than space time" but the scans don't even say that

We have already proven in the past that the worlds are space-time continuums and that is already accepted on this wiki so we don't need to do that again.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The void is a perfect fit for 1-A rating. There are many more scans for the void, regarding the void containing ancient stars, star rivers and the ability to erase a person's body and soul.

Pretty much, and I fully agree to this; it goes along with the definition almost word to word for being "Vaster than Physical Reality, yet lacking Space-time and Physicality". A "Void of Emptiness/Nothingness" is assumed to do that by default, as per the standards of our Void Manipulation in accordance to the definition page.
Something doesn't need overly fancy terms being mentioned[like "This reality is of an entirely different composite" or "Its a conceptual domain utterly inaccessible, transcend of the physical world and sees it as illusory"], NO, to get 1-A, you can very much get the tier while keeping the wording to the utmost basic as long as the wording itself fits the purpose of the BDE2 page.

As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them.

Furthermore, keep in mind that Type 2 Beyond-Dimensional Existence (In particular the latter variant) is not simply a combination of a non-dimensional state of existence and greater raw power than all dimensional structures in a cosmology – Though that is a necessary condition to qualify for it, it is not a sufficient one. Instead, the non-dimensional state of existence must be the direct cause of the character/realm's superiority over dimensions. A simple example being voids of nothingness that lack space, time and physicality entirely, but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop.

1) Architect (the writer) - As per this thread, architect's 2-B, likely 2-A scaling is based off the void. With this 1-A void upgrade, Architect's 2-B /2-A tiers should be replaced with 1-A

Is the Architecter's tier on "can erase the shadow verse" referring to the physical worlds or the game as a whole? That really needs to be clarified.
If the void is counted in the "shadow fight as an entire game and data", then yeah, I agree with 1-A for the guy.

2) Shadow (the protagonist) - Following tenebris' defeat, the player is presented with two options, wheather to turn back (as tenebris advised) or enter the portal. When shadow decides to turn back, the portal (the void) blesses him with its own power, the power to mold and shape reality, to create anew. The void becomes his direct source of power. This will be given a separate key of its own since turn back option is regarded as non canon for the main story line.

Conclusion - Low 2-C | Low 2-C, 1-A with the Portal's power

3) Tenebris (Void's avatar) - Has the portal's power, similar to shadow.

Conclusion - At least Low 2-C, possibly Higher. 1-A with the Portal's power

This much is pretty clear since they're getting blessed by a 1-A power source, so no anti-feat present.

 

[Secimatar]

Is the Architecter's tier on "can erase the shadow verse" referring to the physical worlds or the game as a whole? That really needs to be clarified.
If the void is counted in the "shadow fight as an entire game and data", then yeah, I agree with 1-A for the guy.

Thank you for response. Also the architect stated that he can delete the entire game and not just the physical worlds.

 

[Robo432343]

it goes along with the definition almost word to word for being "Vaster than Physical Reality, yet lacking Space-time and Physicality"

brotha where is the scan that says this

 

[Secimatar]

brotha where is the scan that says this

It has Literally been called "nothingness" many times. I can provide you more scans if you want regarding this. On top of that there are total of 0 statements in all of the games that even REMOTELY suggest that void is made of space or time. If you assume otherwise then you would have to provide evidence for why it is not a void of nothingness as according to definition provided on void manipulation page, it is enough for a void to be considered nothingness/non existent if it is called that (and doesn't have anti statements ofc).

 

[SweetDao]

I have to agree with Robo. Right now it looks more like a void in between universes/outside universes than a literal Low 1-A/1-A void.

I personally think it would perhaps be more fitting for Low 1-C at most.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

brotha where is the scan that says this

From term to term:
"Vaster than Physical Reality, yet lacking Space-time and Physicality"

Vaster than Physical Reality:

"yet lacking Space-time and Physicality":

It's a "Void of Emptiness"
From the Void Manipulation definition page:

Void Manipulation, also known as Nothingness Manipulation is the ability to control and manipulate a void: nothingness or non-existence.

Empty space and black holes are not examples of a void as they possess energy and exist in the conventional sense. Manipulating either is Spatial Manipulation and Black Hole Creation respectively.

Just "Empty Space" is not a Void -> meaning a Void lacks even Spatiality.
From the NEP definition page[Void is Nonexistence by default]:

The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are Incorporeal, unless maybe they physically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence. That means that robots or similar don't qualify for spiritual or mental nonexistence, as they physically exist. Incorporeality alone, however, is not enough. The character has to additionally have at least one combination of the following types:

The terms used in the scans have definitions in our wiki to dictate what they qualify for; Thus, as said, you don't need overly fancy terms to qualify for it.

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

I mean sure, I am willing to agree that the place beyond this portal is an endless span of emptiness. I'm not even sure what NEP is up to these days, but I can say that this void lacks a good chunk of properties found in Shadow's world (where Earth exists), if not "everything". For some context, the Eternals are described by Son of Heaven as being literal forces of nature. Each of them embody a specific concept and are able to manipulate the elements that are related to said concept, and are also capable of resurrecting because of this (I should mention that canonically they are also called "Immortals"). Volcano is fire, Megalith is earth (not just minerals as some would say because his role in the past was to move the Earth's continents), Fungus is organic life (with huge emphasis on fungi), Vortex is water, Fatum (and presumably her sister Whisper) is fate (with fate in this verse being at least synonymous with time, since when Morgana's spiders tangled the web of time, it caused Fatum to no longer see any fate lines and instead see only chaos), Arkhos (with analysis of his character, dialogue and design) is faith, Hoaxen is lies, Karcer is hunger and Drakaina is war. Now Tenebris being their "Father" puts into perspective the fact that he is a lot older than all of those Eternals. He existed long before those forces of nature did. In fact, Tenebris is stated by Fatum herself that he is even more skilled than her at manipulating the threads of fate. Fatum may be fate itself, but it was Tenebris who created and designed "fate" to begin with. There is but one thing that Tenebris never created though, and that is the emptiness that exists beyond the portal. In fact this emptiness granting Shadow the power to "mold and shape reality like fresh clay, to create anew" leads me to believe that Tenebris is also dependant on this emptiness' same power in order to create things (such as the Eternals). Tenebris himself being the confirmed embodiment of fear (and categorized as an Eternal) also, at least to me, implies that he himself was created by another, even older being. And who else could that be if not the seemingly sentient emptiness beyond the portal, from which the power to create derives? Basically what I mean to say is that this emptiness lacks anything that exists in Shadow's world (at the very least the things that the Eternals embody - fire, earth, organic life, water, fate / time, faith, lies, hunger, war, fear). It is the "final frontier", the "edge of reality". All those concepts of reality I just mentioned end at the border with this emptiness. It is an emptiness whose infinity devours anything which exists that comes in contact with it. Shadow survived going through it, but it still took his strength away and weakened his molecular bonds.

It still irks me the wrong way that this void I have just described is now supposed to be the same as the one in Shadow Fight 3. Because when they introduced the Void in Shadow Fight 3, both Underworld's story and Shadow Fight 3's were not canon to each other. The differences between Underworld's void and SF3's Void are drastic. The Void in SF3 is not so empty as its name implies: it hosts a native population of aliens, it has a political system and rulers, it contains various elemental energies, it contains stars and possibly planets. That's quite different from the void that Tenebris describes.

Not even sure if this even contributes to any side of the argument, but I reckoned that I should give my thoughts on the matter. If anything I'll just stick around and give context to scans and whatnot based on what I personally remember.

 

[Secimatar]

It still irks me the wrong way that this void I have just described is now supposed to be the same as the one in Shadow Fight 3. Because when they introduced the Void in Shadow Fight 3, both Underworld's story and Shadow Fight 3's were not canon to each other. The differences between Underworld's void and SF3's Void are drastic. The Void in SF3 is not so empty as its name implies: it hosts a native population of aliens, it has a political system and rulers, it contains various elemental energies, it contains stars and possibly planets. That's quite different from the void that Tenebris describes.

I think they are the same void, just in UW it was the first time they ever introduced it and in sf3 they added more details onwards. Also considering the fact that uw is canon now, they are canonically considered the same.

 

[Richard5128pm]

Is the Architecter's tier on "can erase the shadow verse" referring to the physical worlds or the game as a whole? That really needs to be clarified.
If the void is counted in the "shadow fight as an entire game and data", then yeah, I agree with 1-A for the guy.

Architect was talking about deleting the entire game (the void, the multiverse and all game characters) +Thank you for the input, I'll count your vote.

It still irks me the wrong way that this void I have just described is now supposed to be the same as the one in Shadow Fight 3. Because when they introduced the Void in Shadow Fight 3, both Underworld's story and Shadow Fight 3's were not canon to each other. The differences between Underworld's void and SF3's Void are drastic. The Void in SF3 is not so empty as its name implies: it hosts a native population of aliens, it has a political system and rulers, it contains various elemental energies, it contains stars and possibly planets. That's quite different from the void that Tenebris describes.

Well, due to the forced canonification, they both are implied to be the same. They've also changed the fact that the shadow world originally belonged to the ancients. I've also got a statement from ishtar where she says travelling from one point to another is impossible even though she has dimensional travel, just because of the void's size, she needs the infinity beacon to travel through it.

 

[Secimatar]

I have to agree with Robo. Right now it looks more like a void in between universes/outside universes than a literal Low 1-A/1-A void.

I personally think it would perhaps be more fitting for Low 1-C at most.

It has Literally been stated to be nothingness, many times. On top of that for Low 1-C u have to show that there is space or time in the void and there are 0 statements that suggest that. On top of that the void has been called nothingness, emptiness, darkness, etc many times. It also destroys anyone who manages steps inside the void, which something u don't see a higher dimensional space doing.

 

[Ar1216789]

I agree. It qualifies for being a void of nothingness among other things. The fact it's "vaster" than physical reality supports claims for 1-A.

 

[Richard5128pm]

I agree. It qualifies for being a void of nothingness among other things. The fact it's "vaster" than physical reality supports claims for 1-A.

Thanks for the input