1-A time manipulation

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you implying that things happening in an area or place beyond time and space means the area isn't beyond time and space? I don't even follow Masada's work or anything but the reasoning for the time stop affecting the Throne makes sense to me when taking into account it's a person who is affecting it is using power that is stated to affect the Throne.

Yes, if we get serious about it , a character that is trully beyond the concept of time shouldn`t be making decitions on chronological orders at all, or it should be subject to change, etc... Which is what happpens with hadou gods and most 1-A.. Some writters take this seriously so they make those gods mysterious and they don`t really appear for the sake of believability. However im not saying that things should be in what way, im saying, we shouldn`t take statements of being above the concept of time as seriously , and we shouldn`t use "muh fiction" cart whatever we feel like it.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Staph with the quoting of large posts

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

Hmmmm
I just debunked your flawed believe of "since the story has a chronological order it isn't above time", but it seems you still believe it so meh. El resto cae por peso propio. :v

You didn`t you just made distraction fallacies, strawman and irrelevant conclusion... And some ad hominem too.

You didn`t debunked the fact that those stories are not really above time by feats.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I know only one of those tho and I didn't do it ._.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean the Throne contains all of reality including concepts such as time, any god sees the Throne as a mere tool and can destroy it with ease, hell every god trensends it various times over.

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

I mean the Throne contains all of reality including concepts such as time, any god sees the Throne as a mere tool and can destroy it with ease, hell every god trensends it various times over.

Yes

 

[Dienomite22]

What Ogre is saying is that if a character/being/thing is truly beyond the concept of time and space then their actions should not be performed chronologically. Although I disagree because I understand that most authors and works of fiction don't work like that and it could be argued otherwise, Ogre isn't necessarily wrong.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Honestly prior to K3 the Gods are like 2-A and are described as walking Universes, its due to all the Cosmology stuff we find out from K3 that they are rated so highly meaning Masada changed their power after the fact.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbh, the current rating for Masadaverse is more because "We put them at 1-A, and while the justification sucks, nobody can (or wants) to find a solution to this", same problem for verses like Umineko. For example, the throne is supposed to be a mere tool for the Hadou according to our profile. In fact, not only it's supposed to boost them and their law, but Dies Irae Pantheon shows clearly that the throne>>Hadou Gods with Naraka.

If we went by the current feats and in a coherent way, the verse would be like, 24 or 25D.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Using Pantheon to justify anything is bad, we know very little about it and it likely wont ever be released.

Also Yakou when he had his Colorless Taiji preformed the 25D feat (Although iirc he didnt use Taiji to create the barrier he could just make it) meaning any character with even 1 Taiji completely trensend that.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Pantheon is supposed to now be a Light Novel irrc, but the throne being superior to the Hadou is supposed to be a thing since the beginning of the series anyway.

I said 25D because the Hadou should be transcendent to at least the 24D barrier. However the justification of "Taikyokue value = transcendent" is also bad, with Trifa's reincarnatiom being defeated without the need of Taikyoku for example. Several instances of Taiji differences shows that a difference doesn't mean that the opponent transcend you or is necessary stronger too.

Btw I don't want to start a big debate about Masadaverse being 1-A or not, I'm just saying t that the current justifications are really bad.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well a CRT for the Shinza Gods tiers/justification should be dropping within a few days so... theres that.

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

The Throne is a thing. Ren's Law can force said thing to be subject to it.

Of course, things aren't as simple as we thought they were since it is revealed that there are entities deeper inside the Throne or somewhere.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

Pantheon is supposed to now be a Light Novel irrc, but the throne being superior to the Hadou is supposed to be a thing since the beginning of the series anyway.

Nah it wasn't from the beginning of the series

 

[PsychoWarper]

Of course, things aren't as simple as we thought they were since it is revealed that there are entities deeper inside the Throne or somewhere.

While this seems to be the case we cant say that because of this the Throne itself (At least the main one used by the gods) is now superior to the gods since we dont know the full context or how this will work.

Pantheon may change things (If its ever actually released) but until then using it as a reason to change something established prior is like using a Movie Trailer to determine something about the overall movie outside "This looks interesting" or "I wonder what that means".

 

[Planck69]

I said 25D because the Hadou should be transcendent to at least the 24D barrier. However the justification of "Taikyokue value = transcendent" is also bad, with Trifa's reincarnatiom being defeated without the need of Taikyoku for example. Several instances of Taiji differences shows that a difference doesn't mean that the opponent transcend you or is necessary stronger too.

Btw I don't want to start a big debate about Masadaverse being 1-A or not, I'm just saying t that the current justifications are really bad.

To be honest, the Hadou/Gudou Gods being 1-A doesn't bother me too much (even if the current justifcations are.....yeah). When Taiji is described to be transcendental over lower values, that's what I'm a bit uncertain about (Hajun's Law being held at bay by Tenma or anything involving Hajun comes to mind).

But maybe that CRT that's supposedly coming soon will answer it.

 

[Maxnumb231]

since i came back from a long ass break, and i see this doubt when its been given enough justifications to whatever you're doubting?? so let me get this straight the reason WHY yato could even prevent hajun's law from completing for 8000 years BECAUSE hajun doesnt give a shit about yato in the slightest, heck we see yato wanted to reach hajun by drilling through hajun's singularity but he just couldnt pass through the singularity because its unfathomably too deep even for his full power to drill through and its too deep for him.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If Hajun was transcending Yato countless times (how we currently consider Taiji value) him not giving a shit about Yato wouldn't allow him to be affect. Also while he didn't cared about Yato, his desire/his law was something he wanted to be more than anything else. Anyway, some of the Tenmas were defeated without the need of higher Taikyoku (or without omr at all), the Hajun-Yato stuff ia just an example techmically.

I think the future CRTs will at least solve somw things about it, so we can't do anything but wait for now.

 

[Planck69]

since i came back from a long ass break, and i see this doubt when its been given enough justifications to whatever you're doubting?? so let me get this straight the reason WHY yato could even prevent hajun's law from completing for 8000 years BECAUSE hajun doesnt give a shit about yato in the slightest, heck we see yato wanted to reach hajun by drilling through hajun's singularity but he just couldnt pass through the singularity because its unfathomably too deep even for his full power to drill through and its too deep for him.

So what you're telling me is that Hajun's Law is countless infinities weaker than himself while reaching completion? That makes a lot less sense than Taikyoku not being transcendental. But I agree with Yuri. Let's just wait for that CRT.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean Yato himself said that Hajun saw him (Yato) as no different from some 3D being.

Also Hajuns Law wasnt stopped it was slowed but iirc it never actually stopped (Could be wrong don't remember perfectly) it was going to complete either way and Hajun knew this and was to busy trying to get the infinite souls around him to **** off (He was the Throne God and was actually not at his Peak power) to care about Yato.

Hell the thing that beat Hajun was Habaki while he was boosted by the Tumor and Hajun himself (Giving him Immeasurable Taiji) while Hajun was still weakened by the Throne/Souls and had lost the Tumor boost.

Although I cant say it makes perfect sense.

 

[Planck69]

I mean Yato himself said that Hajun saw him (Yato) as no different from some 3D being.
Also Hajuns Law wasnt stopped it was slowed but iirc it never actually stopped (Could be wrong don't remember perfectly) it was going to complete either way and Hajun knew this and was to busy trying to get the infinite souls around him to **** off (He was the Throne God and was actually not at his Peak power) to care about Yato.

Hell the thing that beat Hajun was Habaki while he was boosted by the Tumor and Hajun himself (Giving him Immeasurable Taiji) while Hajun was still weakened by the Throne/Souls and had lost the Tumor boost.

Although I cant say it makes perfect sense.

Him viewing himself as no different than a human when compared to Hajun wouldn't mean much in and of itself. It could be hyperbole, flowery language or something to show the immense and vast power difference between them. Even verses that have statements like this already have concrete evidence for such a gap and mostly only use it as supporting evidence (Granted, the only verses that make these statements I know are the Mythos and Umineko).

A Low 1-C would have the exact same success in holding off the passive aura from a 1-B as he would in killing the latter i.e. nothing. Even slowing down should be impossible for Tenma as it's still Hajun's desire to erase everything and even while weakened, he's still described to have evergrowing and immeasurable Taiji.

Shouldn't have Hajun's Law taken effect when faced by Habaki? The reason he was growing prior was that he desired to destroy everything but his Tumor was still connected to him and bothering him (not sure if he was aware of the exact cause). His Law just kept pushing his value higher and higher to get rid of this Tumor (which wouldn't work for obvious reasons) resulting in his immeasurable Taikyoku. At least that's how I understood it so I could be wrong. His Tumor was no longer connected to him but shouldn't have his power climbed again when faced by Habaki?

I'd really like some clarification on this. Don't really mind if the Masadaverse gets upgraded or not.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean I would like to point out that Hajun at his actual peak "faced" off against Ren as well as Rein, Merc and Marie and after stomping the other 3 he didnt even acknowledge Rens existence before nuking all of existence and winning.

The only thing that brought Ren back as bullshit and PIS Mercs Reset iirc.

As for the Habaki verse Hajun thing even if they both went Immeasurable neither would win but im fairly certain the reason Hajun didnt was due to the difference of circumstances between how the Tumor effected him and Habaki.

Honestly an argument could be made that Hajun simply lost due to his peerless pride and CIS or immense PIS

 

[Planck69]

The fact that he faced off against them for more than even a single instant is something that's a bit suspicious. I'm not denying that he wrecked them wholly and utterly, what I'm skeptical of is the power difference being so extreme that they held on for more than even a moment against a being that isn't just countless infinities above them but metaphysically above, superior and external to their nature as Hadou Gods.

So this reset is so effective it brought someone back from immmeasurably infinitely superior erasure than what caused the reset itself? I thought a mainstay of Taiji was that the Law of a weaker God would always be inferior to that of a greater one. Did that change in KKK?

 

[PsychoWarper]

From what I know/can tell it wasnt a fight, they just got completely nuked/rekt like instantly (But again I may be a bit off), although I will say that a big thing with these gods is CIS since its basically the more ego you have the stronger you are so as you get to stronger gods they generally become more arrogant and prideful and Hajun is easily the worst jobber in fiction like bar none.

Merc was the Throne God and he has some crazy ass feats (Theres a reason that if Hajun becomes High 1-A Merc will be one of 2 others who scale although it would only be hax), like hes probably the 3rd strongest character if you include Naraka if not hes likely 2nd although him undoing everything is often since as a bit BS/PIS iirc.

 

[Planck69]

If it was instant annihilation then it could likely make sense for higher Taikyoku to be completely transcendental. But how the hell did Ren survive that in the first place? And a part of me believes it wasn't immediate but I'm no expert so I may be wrong.

I really want to believe that a major part of the lore concerning the Throne and Taiji wasn't just completely ret-conned so Merc could bring Ren back. It seems like PIS but I guess it could work if that's what's implied (The Numidium is in a similar situation).

 

[Eganergo]

Plot.

 

[PsychoWarper]

If it was instant annihilation then it could likely make sense for higher Taikyoku to be completely transcendental. But how the hell did Ren survive that in the first place? And a part of me believes it wasn't immediate but I'm no expert so I may be wrong.

Basically Hajun didnt even register Ren as being there, Ren was so irrelevant to him he just didnt even take notice or do anything to him until he nuked everything.

 

[Planck69]

Plot.

I agree that authors can come somewhat short when describing complex cosmologies and we definitely shouldn't nit-pick them for it nor should we do so when they have a few minor inconsistencies in working with dimensionless beings and their interactions. No human author, could accurately get that correct without at least some short-comings. Even the most accurate depictions of higher planes and beings usually fall prey to this.

But when a good chunk of the largest contribution to the cosmology and lore of a setting is filled with that much PIS, it really should be given more scrutiny. Not to mention how they're the only 1-A verse that claim greater power than effective area and size of their cosmology so accepting that they have this level of power is like giving characters a 1-B rating in a 2-A setting. It would need some major and thorough analysing to go through and hopefully the CRT will have that.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Honestly the problem isn't really the coherence of the verse but more the interpretations we did for the tier (mainly because only few people played K3) we even use the "beyond human langage" as a proof in the blog while the throne was created by humans for example.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

>Anyway, some of the Tenmas were defeated without the need of higher Taikyoku (or without omr at all)

Outright not true as Tenmas lost due to Kikei Mandala boost by Tumor/Hajun which is basically the same thing Hajun is (in a way at least). So no it wasn't Eastern Expedition "normal Gudou Taikyoku" that the Tenma lost to.

Hajun not insta killing Yato was also already explained. As Hajun was in fact, not caring to Yato Hadou and was more focusing on plucking the infinite souls attached to him to find Tumor. Funny enough despite this struggle, you can see the backlash Yato had as he kept getting weaker and weaker and his law was getting eroded by a non caring and not full output Hajun

Mentioning Habaki is a bad case since he's the whole center point of the enitre thing. The final fight was literally a "let's get Hajun to one on one Habaki" because of their extrem connection. Being the Sensory Tumor meant that Habaki wasn't viewed as "shit" by Hajun as he would usually do but as a "person". Besides, Hajun opted for Throne Records and one shotted enitre Gudou Gods

 

[QuasiYuri]

Awaumi lost without any outside interference, same for Numahime. In Awaumi case, he was nearly one shot by Eastern Expedition without Taikyoku.

Hajun was constantly increasing, Yato becoming weaker as a consequence is logic.

Habaki is basically Hajun's kryptonite because of his nature, so yeah it's a bad example.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

>Awasaumi

Good job. You just mentioned someone who went outside his God territory and thus lost his divinity and thus became weaker and basically a fodder

Numahime died to 1-A Schreiber with Shura Mandala as they are literal Kamunagara too

 

[QuasiYuri]

While he was outside of Yato's territory, he still had taikyoku (albeit the weaker one in term of value).

It technically doesn't give taikyoku tho, which is why I think the current reasoning sucks. Even if we try to scale Terei and Niko to Merc's world because of what they represent, Numahime would just have been one shot.

Also, for a better example, Shiori was in danger against someone with a Taikyoku with a value of 40 while she has one of 60.

There's litteraly more case where Taiji doesn't means anything than case where it matters (except for Hegemony VS Hegemony)

 

[SleepyTBubble]

>Also, for a better example, Shiori was in danger against someone with a Taikyoku with a value of 40 while she has one of 60.

No did you see my post before? It was "Kikei Mandala" Shiori who's power increases with time. Not "Gudou God with value of 60" Shiori

>While he was outside of Yato's territory, he still had taikyoku (albeit the weaker one in term of value)

I literally stated he lost his divinity (Taikyoku) due to being at the very end rage of Yato domain. He also has poor connection with Yato to begin with

What? Kamunagara is manifestation of one's Taikyoku. That's blatant. Niko and Teirei fusing to become Kamu is a 1-A feat as they are Kamu in this state. They one shotted Numahime too

 

[QuasiYuri]

I don't remember this in the fight, do you have the scan which confirm it?

He has a poor connection with the whole world. Also for the values, I remember their profile saying that the Taikyoku value was respectively 2 for Awasaumi and none for the familiars. That's why their Kamunagura is kinda weird.

Also like I said it's just the examples I had in mind, but Taikyoku not meaning that you're stronger happens nearly everytime anyway.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Nevermind the Kekei Mandala stuff, I remembered Rindou "sharing it" to everyone.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

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The quote for it

That value for 2 was for Yakou...none of the Tenma profiles mentionned their value. Also what do you mean by familiars?

Akuro Kamunagara = Taikyoku = 40 Value

Your examples so far has been nothing but pure misconceptions of the verse

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yakou never had a value of 2 tho, how do you want this to refer to him? Also I'm pretty sure you can see the Tenmas "stats" in Extra. I'm refering to Terei and Niko for "familiars".

Anyway, a debate about this would be better with scans/screen. I'm currently planning a CRT for some powers additions.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

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Quote of Yakou having 2 Taiji value. Useless in the long run since he lacks a desire and thus it's colorless but it wasn't Awausami. You're making things up so far. Awasaumi has no Taikyoku when he goes to ambush the expedition team because he's ourside Ren's territory meaning no legion effect as Tenmas Taikyoku derives from Yato thus going outside his range meaning losing it, period

That just means we don't know what's their value is. Although considering he kept up with Taikyoku Akuro and Morei. It's above Numahime

 

[BleedingPeach]

Can we please stop refering to the Masadaverse? The (BETTER) blog is being in creation, so things will be explained as it corresponds. Not because the time stopping BS happens to Ren, means that it doesn't happen in others verses. So I say it again: can we please stop assuming that the Masada verse is the thing that Shrek asked?