1-A time manipulation

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

Even when this is fiction we are always trying to explain the capabilities and abilities of those characters in a logical way in order to engage in debate. We don`t use concepts such as "omnipotence" for being impossible to prove.. But then we pass on such bullshit as timestop in a place beyond the concept of time... Really? In the same way there is no "beyond omnipotence suggverse stuff" there is no "timestop in a place beyond the concept of time". Please, explain to me how timestop in said setting wouldn`t degrade the previous formal setting to just a higher dimension instead of a place that trully trascends such concepts.. In the same way beings beyond beyond beyond omnipotent only downgrade the previous being to an 1-B power level.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Is this about Tenma Yato? The Throne is a place where time doesnt even exist, and yet he stopped time there. We cant say anything about it, its just fiction.

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

Is this about Tenma Yato? The Throne is a place where time doesnt even exist, and yet he stopped time there. We cant say anything about it, its just fiction.

Again, we can. In fact that`s why we don`t accept the claims of omnipotence or why we just ignore Suggverse "beyond para omnipotence" bullshit. Is because is ridiculous, the same with "Timestop in a place above the concept of time". Totally ridiculous.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They make time in that place then stop it???

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I mean, thats literally how Yato's powers works. Be capable of timestopping anything

"Res Novae - Also Sprach Zarathustra: The manifestation of Tenma Yato's Law from when he was Ren Fuji, "I want to enjoy this moment forever". After activation, time, in all levels of existence, are completely frozen, even in areas where time in all its forms does not exist. Through an extension known as "Time Armor", Yato is also capable of completely negating change, making all damage done to him effectively null unless the opponent's power outright exceeds his own. The Time Armor even allowed him to halt Hajun's Law from being completed for over 8,000 years, only stopping because of his own death (Albeit Hajun was significantly weakened due to having absorbed a vast quantity of souls and was not paying any mere attention to his existence)"

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

I mean, thats literally how Yato's powers works. Be capable of timestopping anything
"Res Novae - Also Sprach Zarathustra: The manifestation of Tenma Yato's Law from when he was Ren Fuji, "I want to enjoy this moment forever". After activation, time, in all levels of existence, are completely frozen, even in areas where time in all its forms does not exist. Through an extension known as "Time Armor", Yato is also capable of completely negating change, making all damage done to him effectively null unless the opponent's power outright exceeds his own. The Time Armor even allowed him to halt Hajun's Law from being completed for over 8,000 years, only stopping because of his own death (Albeit Hajun was significantly weakened due to having absorbed a vast quantity of souls and was not paying any mere attention to his existence)"

It is just PIS, stopping time in a place without time just implies that there in fact was a form of time in such place (altho probably very subtle)... I think the problem lies within the fact that Masada verse is held in such a high steem from the community, so we pass on this bullshit.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

Yikes.

Truly Shinza is on Suggs level

Nevertheless, you're talking about Atziluth which speaks for itself

 

[InfiniteSped]

A "place without time" is generally bs in the first place, as characters generally go there, take actions, and things change, which shows that time exists. Same for places "without space" and such.

They're quite common, so I'm not sure how to handle that kind of thing though. >_>

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

I mean. You are forgetting that Atziluth isn't just "I do X thing at a cosmic level" but "I impose my Law on absolutely everything".

Mibu is a good example of just the sort of shenanigans a Law can do since he is simply the God of cutting things really, really well. What can he cut? Well: Line of sight, spiritual communication, vigour, space, dimensions, spirit, lifespan, fate, laws, infinite possibilities, nothingness, visions of future, luck, souls and so on.

Everything.

Ren's Law isn't just stopping time but just telling things to "Stop".

 

[SleepyTBubble]

Actual serious reply

Ren's law simply "stagnates" and "freezes" anything it covers. Thus it manifests as a time stop. Aand that's it. It being his Atziluth/Taikyoku speak volume of its potency as it is enforcing your deepest desire unto all of creation.

It just works

That's as far as i can go to replying on this thread. Might wanna notify other supporters if you feel like it about this subject

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

I mean. You are forgetting that Atziluth isn't just "I do X thing at a cosmic level" but "I impose my Law on absolutely everything".
Mibu is a good example of just the sort of shenanigans a Law can do since he is simply the God of cutting things really, really well. What can he cut? Well: Line of sight, spiritual communication, vigour, space, dimensions, spirit, lifespan, fate, laws, infinite possibilities, nothingness, visions of future, luck, souls and so on.

Everything.

Ren's Law isn't just stopping time but just telling things to "Stop".

That`s nice.. But i dont get what your point is. I mean, in this thread i only talking about stopping time in a place above the concept of time or devoid of time in any conception. Is just bullshit. The examples you mention are not.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Reality is like a picture to him where he can enforce his law to exist and force others to follow it.

They already explained it up there

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

Reality is like a picture to him where he can enforce his law to exist and force others to follow it.
They already explained it up there

I already know how Taikyoku is suppose to work, it is not an argument for the bad writting tho.

 

[Dienomite22]

I already know how Taikyoku is suppose to work, it is not an argument for the bad writting tho.

So you just dislike the writing? Regardless if it's bad or not the explanations above make sense.

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

A "place without time" is generally bs in the first place, as characters generally go there, take actions, and things change, which shows that time exists. Same for places "without space" and such.
They're quite common, so I'm not sure how to handle that kind of thing though. >_>

Nothing at all, probably we should just stop taking claims of being above the concept of time as serious. By feats most 1-A characters are NOT above the concept of time.

 

[Planck69]

Eh. If we really scrutinized everything about 1-As, that tier would be massacred even more than it was with the TS revisions. While a part of me feels that 1-A time-stop makes about as much sense as mind-haxxing a lifeless rock i.e. complete bullshit, Tenma's law could just be explained as something slightly different (law-hax or something) so the ability itself really not invalid.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean Rens Law isnt as simple as Time Stop thats just an effect of it, Rens Law is the stop Change as a whole causing all of creation and beyond to cease any sort of movement or change (Tho there are beings who resist its effects.

Rens Law can effect the Throne but simply referring to it as "BS of stopping time in a place with no time" is said by people who don't actually know what they are talking about, its just not that simple.

Its not simply bad writing cause as I said and others have said its not really stopping time in a place without time its just stopping change itself.

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

I already know how Taikyoku is suppose to work, it is not an argument for the bad writting tho.

So you just dislike the writing? Regardless if it's bad or not the explanations above make sense.

Look, Taikyoku is not Descartes omnipotence, is not an excuse to do bad writting. I understand that Taikyoku affects all existence, but it is not an excuse for doing bullshit like timestop in a place devoid of all forms of time, this in on the level of Descartes omnipotence paradox.

 

[Dienomite22]

Nothing at all, probably we should just stop taking claims of being above the concept of time as serious. By feats most 1-A characters are NOT above the concept of time.

So you should be asking about the evidence that suggest the Throne is beyond time rather than discussing wether or not Ren's abilities are BS.

 

[Planck69]

I mean, change would stilll require time to take place but fiction tends to ignore this in other verses and media as well so I can easily concede to that. Though what I really want to know is from what perspective were the 8,000 years measured since it sure as hell can't be the Throne.

 

[Dienomite22]

Look, Taikyoku is not Descartes omnipotence, is not an excuse to do bad writting.

Sure, so make a CRT if you disagree and explain your reasoning there because it sounds like you just want to revise the verse.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean, change would stilll require time to take place but fiction tends to ignore this in other verses and media as well so I can easily concede to that. Though what I really want to know is from what perspective were the 8,000 years measured since it sure as hell can't be the Throne.

Im pretty sure the 8000 years is from the perspective of the people within the actual universe.

Also his issues and potential CRT of Shinza is fundamentally wrong since Rens ability isnt stopping time everywhere including places with no time, it is an ability with similar effects as time stop but it isnt, his ability is literally just to stop everything since his desire is for nothing to change as he wants to stay within that moment forever (This desire stems from when he was human obviously).

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

Nothing at all, probably we should just stop taking claims of being above the concept of time as serious. By feats most 1-A characters are NOT above the concept of time.

So you should be asking about the evidence that suggest the Throne is beyond time rather than discussing wether or not Ren's abilities are BS.

The evidence are the statements from the verse, but the feats say otherwise as all those characters work on chronological orders, most 1-A characters aren`t above the concept of time by feats, as i said. what i am going to do about it? nothing, this is just fiction and i don`t take it that seriously , now im going for a sandwich, bye bye.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I like how he has ignored all the people stating that its not really 1-A Time Stop/Stopping time in a place without time.

As I and several others have said thats not what it is, time stop is an effect of it and its overall effects are basically time stop buts thats not what it is.

 

[Planck69]

Im pretty sure the 8000 years is from the perspective of the people within the actual universe.

Also his issues and potential CRT of Shinza is fundamentally wrong since Rens ability isnt stopping time everywhere including places with no time, it is an ability with similar effects as time stop but it isnt, his ability is literally just to stop everything since his desire is for nothing to change as he wants to stay within that moment forever (This desire stems from when he was human obviously).

I can and do agree that Ren's ability isn't time-stop (we may index fiction but sometimes basic logic has to fall through) but I can see why he would think the ability is bullsh*t. It's described as 1-A time-stop and Shinza has the most blatantly causal and time-affected 1-As on the wiki rivalled by maybe DC.

Unrelated but what is the full extent of the mortal universe? Low 2-C, 2-A, Low 1-C or what?

 

[Dienomite22]

The evidence are the statements from the verse, but the feats say otherwise as all those characters work on chronological orders, most 1-A characters aren`t above the concept of time by feats, as i said. what i am going to do about it? nothing, this is just fiction and i don`t take it that seriously , now im going for a sandwich, bye bye.

Okaaaaay. Whenever you decide you want to do something about it, you may want to work on your evidence and arguments.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

>but the feats say otherwise as all those characters work on chronological orders

I remember seeing this absolutely dumb argument once, it was you wasn't it?

This is fiction boyo, stories meant to entertain and most importantly, make money.

You obviously need a chronological order of things to have a good story, if from the start of things you had something like "muh I see everything, this story ends like this and that" the story would be an absolute disaster.

 

[Planck69]

You make a lot of sense and I agree but if I can play Devil's Advocate, you can still have an entertaining verse and work it into your setting how your dimensionless, timeless beings are, well, timeless but still have it work. The Mythos and TES already have the most acausal characters in 1-A and even have lore explaining why they can act and interact (which would normally be contradictory).

Granted, that may not work for Masada's style of writing but it can still be pulled off.

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

>but the feats say otherwise as all those characters work on chronological orders
I remember seeing this absolutely dumb argument once, it was you wasn't it?

This is fiction boyo, stories meant to entertain and most importantly, make money.

You obviously need a chronological order of things to have a good story, if from the start of things you had something like "muh I see everything, this story ends like this and that" the story would be an absolute disaster.

I didn`t never say things shouldn`t be that way. What i said? that by feats most 1-A characters are not above the concept of time, it is true? yes.. So what`s the matter?. There is no problem with it at all, if a writter wants to make a character above the concept of time from all perspectives i should rarely appear. Like mytho characters or most tier 0`s... Why are you so unrespectful mr Tony, everything nice at home?.

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

A respetar a sus mayores, Tony, chino mk.

 

[Planck69]

I didn`t never say things shouldn`t be that way. What i said? that by feats most 1-A characters are not above the concept of time, it is true? yes.. So what`s the matter?. There is no problem with it at all, if a writter wants to make a character above the concept of time from all perspectives i should rarely appear. Like mytho characters or most tier 0`s... Why are you so unrespectful mr Tony, everything nice at home?.

Dude, if you don't agree with it that's fine but that last comment was a bit uncalled for. I really do think that writers should try to put as much thought into their work as possible but that's still a discussion that can be had in a civil manner.

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

I didn`t never say things shouldn`t be that way. What i said? that by feats most 1-A characters are not above the concept of time, it is true? yes.. So what`s the matter?. There is no problem with it at all, if a writter wants to make a character above the concept of time from all perspectives i should rarely appear. Like mytho characters or most tier 0`s... Why are you so unrespectful mr Tony, everything nice at home?.

Dude, if you don't agree with it that's fine but that last comment was a bit uncalled for. I really do think that writers should try to put as much thought into their work as possible but that's still a discussion that can be had in a civil manner.

Again, i don`t have problems with it, the way an author develops a narrative and makes money has nothing to do with fiction debates. Again there are characters that by feats they trascend time and space, mythos character for example. Others don`t . What we should do about it? i dont know. All this confusion comes from an uncalled strawman. I just find fun that we use logic to reject some things but we pass on others, we pull out of our asses the "Muh fiction" card whatever we feel like it. And, sorry but i don`t understand, it wasn`t an insult, if you think it was...

 

[Dienomite22]

Again, i don`t have problems with it, the way an author develops a narrative and makes money has nothing to do with fiction debates. Again there are characters that by feats they trascend time and space, mythos character for example. Others don`t . What we should do about it? i dont know. All this confusion comes from an uncalled strawman. I just find fun that we use logic to reject some things but we pass on others, we pull out of our asses the "Muh fiction" card whatever we feel like it. And, sorry but i don`t understand, it wasn`t an insult, if you think it was...

Ren's time stop wasn't agreed upon solely using "muh fiction" though as many in this thread pointed out. It has logic and numerous statements along side it.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

A respetar a sus mayores, Tony, chino mk.

Nel prro >:v

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Granted, that may not work for Masada's style of writing but it can still be pulled off.

That's the point tho, his writing style is not the same as, here you have creatures that are incomprehensible and beings beyond anything ever seen that not even the author can describe but more like Gods that were once "humans" and can be challenged to bring out a new era.

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

Again, i don`t have problems with it, the way an author develops a narrative and makes money has nothing to do with fiction debates. Again there are characters that by feats they trascend time and space, mythos character for example. Others don`t . What we should do about it? i dont know. All this confusion comes from an uncalled strawman. I just find fun that we use logic to reject some things but we pass on others, we pull out of our asses the "Muh fiction" card whatever we feel like it. And, sorry but i don`t understand, it wasn`t an insult, if you think it was...

Ren's time stop wasn't agreed upon solely using "muh fiction" though as many in this thread pointed out. It has logic and numerous statements along side it.

Well, they come with a very kind semantical lesson about Ren time stop not being really a time stop, but is stop "change" so there is change in the throne? so the throne is not above the concept of time.. But wait, the statements say otherwise, but wait, the feats show that Hadou gods aren`t really above the concept of time, but hey, muh fiction and muh money... wait wat? ii didn`t say anything about it. Im just making clear some facts: most 1-A (including hadou gods) are not above the concept of time by feats.. And i dont want to do something about it, people is making strawmans impyling bullshit.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

>makes a thread about 1-A time stops

>argues for the throne and the gods to not be above the concept of time

>says he does not want to do shit about it after he gets a handful or responses and refuting the stuff

Hmmmmmmm

 

[ShrektheHandsomeOgre]

>makes a thread about 1-A time stops
>argues for the throne and the gods to not be above the concept of time

>says he does not want to do shit about it after he gets a handful or responses and refuting the stuff

Hmmmmmmm

Nobody has refuted that Hadou gods, and stuff are not above concept of time by feats since they still behave in chronological orders, hence they still are subject to change, and by this reason is that is possible to make "change stomp" like Tenma Yato hax... But then you did come with your very kindly "muh fiction" and everything was over, very nice played.

 

[Dienomite22]

Well, they come with a very kind semantical lesson about Ren time stop not being really a time stop, but is stop "change" so there is change in the throne? so the throne is not above the concept of time.. But wait, the statements say otherwise, but wait, the feats show that Hadou gods aren`t really above the concept of time, but hey, muh fiction and muh money... wait wat? ii didn`t say anything about it. Im just making clear some facts: most 1-A (including hadou gods) are not above the concept of time by feats.. And i dont want to do something about it, people is making strawmans impyling bullshit.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you implying that things happening in an area or place beyond time and space means the area isn't beyond time and space? I don't even follow Masada's work or anything but the reasoning for the time stop affecting the Throne makes sense to me when taking into account it's a person who is affecting it is using power that is stated to affect the Throne.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Hmmmm

I just debunked your flawed believe of "since the story has a chronological order it isn't above time", but it seems you still believe it so meh. El resto cae por peso propio. :v

Also, stop quoting large posts mah friend

I'm having so much fun here xD