1-A High Elder Gods

[SITHISIT]

Weekly made an interesting argument that the High Elder Gods were 1-A. To keep that thread from derailing I'm putting thoughts about it in one small place....

now, commence the debate!


also coming on Thursday with the signature show, azzy disagreeing with this revision!


ok no seriously despite my joking attitude this is meant to be serious.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I already said my reasons. I'll answer tomorrow if this is still open.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Should i just save everyone the trouble and close this?

 

[SITHISIT]

nonononono you can't close this until Thursday I need to see another weekly vs Azzy before then

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Since it's my thread that sparked this discussion, I'll share my thoughts. I definitely feel like the description of the High Elder Gods can be interpreted as 1-A. But it may not be entirely conclusive.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Should i just save everyone the trouble and close this?

No, I find this interesting. It'll better help me understand how characters are established as 1-A.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Should i just save everyone the trouble and close this?

Given the OPs messages, I can't help but shake the feeling this thread was only made to stir up controversy.

 

[SITHISIT]

no


of course it wasn't


I don't know it's 12 am where I live and I have a basketball game tomorrow so aaaaa

 

[FateAlbane]

I'm not taking part on this, but wasn't this matter debated like 10 times over with the info people currently have, reaching the current classification?

 

[FateAlbane]

I feel like if Weekly of all people who would know SCP better is saying to spare the trouble and close it, the thread sounds kinda eeeeh.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Theyre the tier they are now because i was told before that a verse had to be High 1-B in order for there to be 1-A characters, but apparently this isnt the case.

 

[FateAlbane]

Well, in that case feel free to debate the stuff then.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'd really rather not, i'd like to spare the disapointment if that's alright...

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Please debate it. I really want to see a character get upgraded to 1-A xD

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

in another thread, many seems to be in agreement that you need to be able to be beyond the concept of dimension itself, not infinite dimensional structures.

so unless there's quote about HEG outright saying : "this character is beyond the concept of dimension itself", I think people who didn't agree about HEG being 1-A would still stand by their arguments.

... which is kinda hard to prove imo. because not many fiction came clean about 'beyond concept of dimension' stuff.

there's some exception like taikyoku from masadaverse because it skips whole 'beyond dimensions' thing and go 'unity before duality/transduality' from the start.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The High Elder Gods existed before the nothingness before the primordial chaos before the darkness that came before creation, but apparently that just means they transcend the multiverse, not that they existed before dimensions

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

in another thread, many seems to be in agreement that you need to be able to be beyond the concept of dimension itself, not infinite dimensional structures.
so unless there's quote about HEG outright saying : "this character is beyond the concept of dimension itself", I think people who didn't agree about HEG being 1-A would still stand by their arguments.

... which is kinda hard to prove imo. because not many fiction came clean about 'beyond concept of dimension' stuff.

there's some exception like taikyoku from masadaverse because it skips whole 'beyond dimensions' thing and go 'unity before duality/transduality' from the start.

I don't think any fiction straight up says "X thing is beyond the concept of dimensions it self". It's usually something else that's stated, or something else that happens, and this wiki interprets it as being beyond the concept of dimensions.

And that leads us to this thread, which is debating whether the description of the HEG can be interpreted as 1-A.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

The High Elder Gods existed before the nothingness before the primordial chaos before the darkness that came before creation, but apparently that just means they transcend the multiverse, not that they existed before dimensions

I think people just aren't convinced of the 'absence' of 'dimensions' in said 'before nothingness'. maybe because it just said 'nothingness', nowhere said about 'no dimension' or somesuch.

even if said nothingness is absent of dimensional concept, there's no guarantee HEG share that outerversal trait, unless if HEG embody said nothingness too.

okay, fair point. but other than that usually it involves being 'source of everything', 'embody nothingness before creation/dimension' or 'beyond all manner of physics/metaphysics'.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I think people just aren't convinced of the 'absence' of 'dimensions' in said 'before nothingness'. maybe because it just said 'nothingness', nowhere said about 'no dimension' or somesuch.

even if said nothingness is absent of dimensional concept, there's no guarantee HEG share that outerversal trait, unless if HEG embody said nothingness too.

They transcend it

 

[Antvasima]

To quote the Tiering System page:

"Characters that have no dimensional limitations, and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics.

Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.

Note that all tier 1-A characters have qualitative superiority over dimensional structures and concepts. Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being."

"Outerverse level: Characters that are beyond all dimensional scale. There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained."

 

[Antvasima]

Hence, we need very clear explanations regarding the superiority to the concepts of any degree of scientific definition of time and space as a whole in order to qualify for 1-A.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Hence, we need very clear explanations regarding the superiority to the concepts of any degree of scientific definition of time and space as a whole in order to qualify for 1-A.

So is that a no to this thread?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. No proper evidence has been presented.

 

[Wardokman69]

errm... Sorry necro, eh but isn't Neverwere embody the nothingness itself?

 

[Wokistan]

Stuff like this is currently being discussed elsewhere but I'm pretty sure nothing's becoming 1-A. Being some sort of primordial nothingness us not a 1-A feat.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

When it exists before the concept of dimensions it is

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also wasnt the Prime Materia decided to be 1-A? The Neverwere is nonexistent even to it

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask DarkLK, Sera EX, and Azathoth for evaluations about 1-A qualifications.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Ant We did, Sera agreed its 1-A

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if Azathoth and Sera agree, it should probably be alright,

 

[LightSShinning]

@Ant I just read the thread and Azathoth still haven't fully agree with the op.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. You can ask him to evaluate it and respond again.

 

[Agnaa]

Confirming that Azathoth disagreed with it due to being "too vague", and only mentioning time and space but not dimensions.

Sera seemed to still think it was valid but the thread never really concluded or had more discussion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted. It would be best if somebody asks DarkLK to comment there as well.

 

[Wardokman69]

When it exists before the concept of dimensions it is

eh, isn't Neverwere also lacking the concept of dimensions? it comes to extistance because it possesses a Ways which are dimensions itself, hmm?

 

[Agnaa]

...Or it comes to existence because it possess a Way which exists.

Also, it's important to note that dimensionless =/= above dimensions.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It requires something bound by spatial dimensions in order to exist

 

[Wardokman69]

okay thanks for everything /\